Which gm put themselves on the hot seat?

[N4L]

You do realize that saquon catches a ton of passes right? He is super valuable in the passing game 

[Danger]

18 hours ago, iknowcool said:

So you would take the 15th best cornerback in the NFL over Barry Sanders?

Come on now.  That's a terrible take.  If that is the case, then Bill Belichick (and any other GM/coach who has done so) are literally morons for ever taking a RB in the 1st round.  
 

And for what reason?  What evidence is there that a great RB correlates any more or less with team success than a great CB?  Or LB?  Or OL?  Or WR?  Nobody has been able to prove any correlation.  And anytime I prove there isn't a correlation (which I have), people just ignore it.  Whenever I prove that the whole "you can find Pro Bowl RBs in the 4th round easily" is a myth (which I have; it just feels that way because its easier to spot a good mid-round RB than it is a good mid-round OL because of the presence of stats), it's ignored.  The whole "RB isn't that important" is the biggest myth in the NFL among fans right now, by far. 

There are a few positions where you should be taken before Runningback even if there is a significant talent difference. Passers and Pass Rushers. Outside of that I'll take a top tier RB over a high tier player at another position.

[SDotNova]

Barkley wasn’t a bad pick. He’s a weapon in the passing game as well. If Gettlemen didn’t believe in the QBs, than he was a good pick.

Redrafting that pick though, I would take Ward, Chubb and Nelson above Barkley. If Darnold becomes anything more than average (Stafford based on PFF rankings), I would take him as well. 

Barkley was a solid pick, which is all you can ask for.  Whether it was the best pick they could make, only time will tell.

 

[SDotNova]

I’m all about analytics and really enjoy what PFF puts out there. But their view of RBs has gone a bit too far.

Without Michel, I don’t think the Pats win the Super Bowl. They kept KC’s offense on the sideline. And he killed it throughout the playoffs.

Look at the difference between the Rams offense before and after Gurley got hurt. Night and day. They were the greatest show on turf part deuce before. After they looked normal. 

[iknowcool]

12 hours ago, CP3MVP said:

Absolutely. Running the ball doesn’t matter in the NFL. It’s all about passing. The only situation running the ball is better is on 3rd and short and salting away the clock in the 4th quarter. Passing is  better everywhere else. Teams should actually pass way more than they already do. Positions are NOT created EQUAL that’s why the pay and drafting position is different.

 

Youre like 15th years too late. Analytics have debunked all these myths years ago your still in the Stone Age. 

What analytics?  I asked you for evidence to support your claims and you haven't provided anything.  Show me the analytics that prove that RBs and/or running the ball are/is worthless.  I would like to see that data.

Top 5 Rushing Teams in 2018:

Seahawks (10-6, Wild-Card)

Ravens (10-6, AFC North Champ)

Rams (13-3, NFC West Champ, Super Bowl App)

Panthers (7-9, however was 6-2 before Cam's arm fell off)

Patriots (11-5, AFC East Champ, Super Bowl Champs)

Top 5 Passing Teams in 2018

Buccaneers (5-11)

Steelers (9-6-1)

Chiefs (12-4, AFC West Champs) (FWIW, while they were kinda low in total rushing yards because of attempts, they were 6th in YPC)

Falcons (7-9)

Rams (13-3, NFC West Champ, Super Bowl App)

"Teams should pass the ball EVEN more" - only 3 of the top 10 teams in pass attempts made the playoffs.  7 of the top 10 teams in rushing attempts made the playoffs.  So again, where are the analytics that say teams should pass the ball even more?  

Your logic that "passing the ball is better in every other situation" works if you are playing Madden, I guess.  That isn't how real life football works.  Ask some of Andy Reid's past teams how passing the ball irregardless of situation has worked out for them in a couple of playoff games.  Running is absolutely important in the NFL.  Not only is it the only guaranteed way to control the clock and give your defense a rest, it allows you to set up some things teams might want to do in the passing game and allows you to dictate field position (for the most part).

If running the ball is as worthless as you imply, why did Belichick take a RB in the 1st round last year?  Is Belichick a moron?

[MrOaktown_56]

I think people are still somehow undervaluing Barkley. If you put him on a team with a decent line and qb, he would be absolutely lethal. I can't even imagine what he'll be capable of in the future. 

His first season already showed why he'll be a HOF lock if he stays healthy. This man is truly incredible. I'm not even a giants fan and I watched every game just for Barkley.

[CP3MVP]

10 hours ago, SDotNova said:

Barkley wasn’t a bad pick. He’s a weapon in the passing game as well. If Gettlemen didn’t believe in the QBs, than he was a good pick.

Redrafting that pick though, I would take Ward, Chubb and Nelson above Barkley. If Darnold becomes anything more than average (Stafford based on PFF rankings), I would take him as well. 

Barkley was a solid pick, which is all you can ask for.  Whether it was the best pick they could make, only time will tell.

 

If you’re picking second in the draft it means one of 3 things

A.) You have no qb

B.) You have no Defense

C.) You have no QB AND no defense

If I don’t see a franchise QB there I’m taking the best defensive player available. If not trade down. Taking a RB is what you absolutely don’t do. 

[CP3MVP]

9 hours ago, SDotNova said:

I’m all about analytics and really enjoy what PFF puts out there. But their view of RBs has gone a bit too far.

Without Michel, I don’t think the Pats win the Super Bowl. They kept KC’s offense on the sideline. And he killed it throughout the playoffs.

Look at the difference between the Rams offense before and after Gurley got hurt. Night and day. They were the greatest show on turf part deuce before. After they looked normal. 

The Patriots  YPC went from 4.2 in 2017 to 4.3 YPC  with Michel. The offense actually got worst this season. 

If  I had to do it all over again I’m taking Darius Leonard without thinking twice 

[CP3MVP]

3 hours ago, iknowcool said:

What analytics?  I asked you for evidence to support your claims and you haven't provided anything.  Show me the analytics that prove that RBs and/or running the ball are/is worthless.  I would like to see that data.

Top 5 Rushing Teams in 2018:

Seahawks (10-6, Wild-Card)

Ravens (10-6, AFC North Champ)

Rams (13-3, NFC West Champ, Super Bowl App)

Panthers (7-9, however was 6-2 before Cam's arm fell off)

Patriots (11-5, AFC East Champ, Super Bowl Champs)

Top 5 Passing Teams in 2018

Buccaneers (5-11)

Steelers (9-6-1)

Chiefs (12-4, AFC West Champs) (FWIW, while they were kinda low in total rushing yards because of attempts, they were 6th in YPC)

Falcons (7-9)

Rams (13-3, NFC West Champ, Super Bowl App)

"Teams should pass the ball EVEN more" - only 3 of the top 10 teams in pass attempts made the playoffs.  7 of the top 10 teams in rushing attempts made the playoffs.  So again, where are the analytics that say teams should pass the ball even more?  

Your logic that "passing the ball is better in every other situation" works if you are playing Madden, I guess.  That isn't how real life football works.  Ask some of Andy Reid's past teams how passing the ball irregardless of situation has worked out for them in a couple of playoff games.  Running is absolutely important in the NFL.  Not only is it the only guaranteed way to control the clock and give your defense a rest, it allows you to set up some things teams might want to do in the passing game and allows you to dictate field position (for the most part).

If running the ball is as worthless as you imply, why did Belichick take a RB in the 1st round last year?  Is Belichick a moron?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fieldgulls.com/platform/amp/2018/2/23/17041846/nfl-draft-running-back-2018-top-20-saquon-barkley-leonard-fournette-ezekiel-elliott

https://thepowerrank.com/2014/01/10/which-nfl-teams-make-and-win-in-the-playoffs/

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/rushing-success-and-play-action-passing

^this one destroys the myth of play action and “establishing the run to set up the pass”

Running doesn’t matter. Passing is better in every situation aside from 3rd and short and running out the clock. And Lol at using total yardage, it’s about efficiency. For example the Bucs threw the ball a ton but were extremelt turnover prone and had a low completion percentage compared to the top offenses. 

 

Good teams throw the ball to build leads and salt out the clock in the 4th quarter running the ball piling up yardage. 

[Thomas5737]

10 hours ago, SDotNova said:

Look at the difference between the Rams offense before and after Gurley got hurt. Night and day. They were the greatest show on turf part deuce before. After they looked normal. 

Okay, I looked. They scored 31 and 48 in weeks 16 and 17 and Anderson had 2 of the three highest rushing totals in a game for the Rams last year starting those 2 weeks while averaging 7 yards per carry. They scored 30 in the divisional round and CJ rushed for 123. Scored 26 vs the Saints, CJ was slowed down, only 44 rushing. Gurley took back over with the most carries in the the SB.

[iknowcool]

2 hours ago, CP3MVP said:

Good teams throw the ball to build leads and salt out the clock in the 4th quarter running the ball piling up yardage. 

Seahawks: 262 carries in the 1st half for 1309 yards at 5.0 YPC - 269 carries in the 2nd half for 1238 yards at 4.6 YPC

Ravens: 238 carries in the 1st half for 1102 yards at 4.6 YPC - 300 carries in the 2nd half for 1302 yards at 4.3 YPC

Rams: 207 carries in the 1st half for 1028 yards at 5.0 YPC - 251 carries in the 2nd half for 1200 yards at 4.8 YPC

Patriots: 220 carries in the 1st half for 982 yards at 4.5 YPC - 258 carries in the 2nd half for 1055 yards at 4.1 YPC

Chiefs: 170 carries in the 1st half for 1003 yards at 5.9 YPC (!!) - 216 carries in the 2nd half for 827 yards at 3.8 YPC

Cowboys: 217 carries in the 1st half for 975 yards at 4.5 YPC - 211 carries in the 2nd half for 957 yards at 4.5 YPC

Eagles: 184 carries in the 1st half for 701 yards at 3.8 YPC - 210 carries in the 2nd half for 827 yards at 3.9 YPC

Texans: 233 carries in the 1st half for 1153 yards at 4.9 YPC - 233 carries in the 2nd half for 846 yards at 3.6 YPC

Colts: 200 carries in the 1st half for 850 yards at 4.3 YPC - 205 carries in the 2nd half for 855 yards at 4.2 YPC

Chargers: 166 carries in the 1st half for 806 yards at 4.9 YPC - 233 carries in the 2nd half for 1067 yards at 4.6 YPC

Bears: 242 carries in the 1st half for 1101 yards at 4.5 YPC - 218 carries in the 2nd half for 779 yards at 3.6 YPC

Saints: 202 carries in the 1st half for 901 yards at 4.5 YPC - 265 carries in the 2nd half for 1122 yards at 4.2 YPC
 

AVG 1st Half Rushing Stats for Playoff Teams: 212 carries, 993 yards, 4.7 YPC

AVG 2nd Half Rushing Stats for Playoff Teams: 239 carries, 1006 yards, 4.2 YPC

So while teams did run the ball more in the 2nd half (and I'm not sure how this would support your point; you were the one who said running the ball is worthless), the difference in yards amounted to an average of 13.  Thus saying good teams were just piling up rushing yards in the 4th quarter is inaccurate.  And considering the difference in carries for each team is probably the kneel downs and final 2 minutes with the game sealed, it's possible that teams were running the ball at the same rate as they were in the 1st half prior to the 2 mins.

As far as being an efficient passing team being preferable over an efficient rushing team?  Well, yeah.  I don't know what that is supposed to prove.  Nowhere have I said running the ball is as important as passing the ball.      

You said running the ball is worthless.  You have implied RBs are worthless.  You said you would take the 15th best player, at any position, over the best RB in the NFL.  I'm asking for the analytics that you say are out there that prove the 15th best left tackle, or the 15th best WR, or the 15th best CB, and so on and so forth, has a higher correlation to wins than the best RB in the NFL.  So your links are worthless to me (especially considering one of them is a mixture of pass/rush offense and pass/rush defense, which doesn't prove anything we're talking about).  Yes, passing the ball is more important than running the ball.  Just like scoring threes is more important than taking it to the rim in today's NBA.  That doesn't mean post play and a mid-range game is worthless.  Prove to me how running the ball is worthless, when the top 4 of 5 teams in rushing yards made the playoffs.   

And you said and I quote "teams should actually pass way more than they already do."  7 of the top 10 teams in pass attempts didn't make the playoffs.  So where's the proof they should pass more?  

[iknowcool]

Also...

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2018/2/23/17041846/nfl-draft-running-back-2018-top-20-saquon-barkley-leonard-fournette-ezekiel-elliott

That link is my biggest problem with the anti-RB people.  It's like that is the only position where, if you are good at it and your team is bad, somehow its your fault.  There are plenty of great OLineman on bad teams.  Great WRs on bad teams.  Great LBs on bad teams.  Great CBs on bad teams.  Great DTs on bad teams.  Great DEs on bad teams.  But somehow if you are a great RB on a bad team?  Its their fault.  It makes no sense to me.

I mean you're talking about taking the 15th best CB over the #1 RB in the NFL.  What have the Jags done outside of one year since getting Ramsey?  But nobody is using him as an example as to why you don't take CBs in the top 10.  What did the Browns ever do after getting Joe Thomas?  What have the Bucs done since getting Gerald McCoy?  Hell, what have the Lions really done since drafting Stafford?  They have what, 2 playoff appearances since 2009 with no playoff wins? 

And obviously it isn't any one of those individual players fault.  Obviously.  However, when its a RB, somehow logic goes out the window.

If anything, wide receiver is the position that should be seen how the RB position is by a lot of fans.  I'd much rather have an elite RB than an elite WR, it isn't even close.

[Daniel]

13 hours ago, iknowcool said:

If anything, wide receiver is the position that should be seen how the RB position is by a lot of fans.  I'd much rather have an elite RB than an elite WR, it isn't even close.

I think it's not that WRs are necessarily more impactful than RBs, it's that it's pretty easy to find good RBs in comparison to a lot of other positions.

I'd much rather have the elite WR, because you need several good ones for them to really make a difference.  You only need one good running back.

[Kiwibrown]

I have no problem taking a runningback high. They have to be elite though, like elliot, Gurley or Barkley. 

Barkley was the wrong pick it should of been darnold. 

It is possible to mitigate having average running backs, have powe guy, a do it all guy, and a receiver. 

You can do the same with wr,have a strong slot wr, a solid te a speed guy and a jump ball guy. 

You have to have a solid oline and  a great qb.

[game3525]

On 5/1/2019 at 7:47 PM, iknowcool said:

What analytics?  I asked you for evidence to support your claims and you haven't provided anything.  Show me the analytics that prove that RBs and/or running the ball are/is worthless.  I would like to see that data.

Top 5 Rushing Teams in 2018:

Seahawks (10-6, Wild-Card)

Ravens (10-6, AFC North Champ)

Rams (13-3, NFC West Champ, Super Bowl App)

Panthers (7-9, however was 6-2 before Cam's arm fell off)

Patriots (11-5, AFC East Champ, Super Bowl Champs)

Top 5 Passing Teams in 2018

Buccaneers (5-11)

Steelers (9-6-1)

Chiefs (12-4, AFC West Champs) (FWIW, while they were kinda low in total rushing yards because of attempts, they were 6th in YPC)

Falcons (7-9)

Rams (13-3, NFC West Champ, Super Bowl App)

"Teams should pass the ball EVEN more" - only 3 of the top 10 teams in pass attempts made the playoffs.  7 of the top 10 teams in rushing attempts made the playoffs.  So again, where are the analytics that say teams should pass the ball even more?  

Your logic that "passing the ball is better in every other situation" works if you are playing Madden, I guess.  That isn't how real life football works.  Ask some of Andy Reid's past teams how passing the ball irregardless of situation has worked out for them in a couple of playoff games.  Running is absolutely important in the NFL.  Not only is it the only guaranteed way to control the clock and give your defense a rest, it allows you to set up some things teams might want to do in the passing game and allows you to dictate field position (for the most part).

If running the ball is as worthless as you imply, why did Belichick take a RB in the 1st round last year?  Is Belichick a moron?

Yeah, 7 of the top 10 teams in rushing DVOA made it to the playoffs this year. 

Running the ball still matters. My team (the Chargers) are a good example of why being an effective running team matters. They had their best offense statistically since 2013 and a large part of that was being able to run the football on early downs, which made them even more efficient when it came to passing the ball.

If you want to argue RBs don't matter then that is a different argument (which I disagree with). But running the ball in general is still really important in today's NFL.