Dr LBC Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 6 minutes ago, Bullet Club said: If it was as good Hangman/Punk, which probably isn't a top 10 match in AEW history, then it's probably not better than any AEW match ever. Well, considering that some of the matches that get considered historically Top AEW matches are spotfests with shoddy psychology and only really get called "good storytelling" because of crowd reaction (and smark crowds, be real, are easy to get paint-by-numbers reactions out of these days), that's really not the put down you feel it is. Top 10 is subjective. I mean, hell, you don't get to crack the Top 10 in Uncle Dave's tally if it's not a match featuring the Bucks or Kenny... or both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 2 minutes ago, Dr LBC said: Well, considering that some of the matches that get considered historically Top AEW matches are spotfests with shoddy psychology and only really get called "good storytelling" because of crowd reaction (and smark crowds, be real, are easy to get paint-by-numbers reactions out of these days), that's really not the put down you feel it is. Top 10 is subjective. I mean, hell, you don't get to crack the Top 10 in Uncle Dave's tally if it's not a match featuring the Bucks or Kenny... or both. Rollins historically is as much of a spotfest guy as any Main Event guy, and significantly moreso than Kenny so that doesn't track. Especially when a lot of people's 2021 MOTY (featuring Kenny, of course) was anything but a spot fest. Seems like a safe bet it was hyperbole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OkeyDoke21 Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 56 minutes ago, Dr LBC said: Apples to oranges comparisons don't help you argument. You realize that right? A guy who is a professional fighter, much less a professional fighter who has been among the best in the world at his trade, would run through guys who have, at best, maybe been in a street fight or two in their lives against other layman fighters? That's not really saying a ton like you seem to think it is. Not only is it apples to oranges, but it is also completely ignoring the fact that MMA uses weight classes for a reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 14 minutes ago, Dr LBC said: Honestly, what could be an interesting twist is Max finding some way to win the battle royale, cheat to beat Mox at Forbidden Door, and then literally hold the title hostage demanding not to return it unless he's granted his release. You've got Smart Mark as his attorney (though I'd bring in outside plants to make it look a bit more official), and you set it up to where "legally" Tony can't strip him of the title without cause. Book Max in a title match, he immediately kicks his opponent in the balls and gets himself disqualified, "Oh well... *shrug*" Point is, you're buying time for Punk to heal and rehab. Dont hate this idea at all. I think it all comes down to how long Punk is going to be out. If its like 3 months out of action, and hes just out of FD for PPV, and can come back and get on the stick for a run up match, it is very different than if he is looking more like 8-10 months. 16 minutes ago, Dr LBC said: The issue become when the opposite side is Max. Max's big thing is that he doesn't have a problem calling out the fans for being smarks (Uncle Dave doesn't like it, but Uncle Dave is kind of King Smark at this point, too). And in that respect "Tony's guys" aren't Danielson or even Mox. Tony's guys are the Bucks and Orange Cassidy Yea they are who Tony originally Marked out for, But when it comes to Max, he is specifically calling out the huge money for ex-WWE guys, and thats why I think its a limited list that Max can go up against. Youre already taking the risk of MJF vs Tony being spun into MJF vs AEW, which doesnt really work with the fans who love the company. So using guys like the Bucks or OC would blur that line even further, and they dont want that. The other two that popped into by head were Adam Cole, you could make that work, but seems like they would rather keep him off that path. But if you could convince the former Braun Stroman to come in for a limited engagement, that would be an impressive Mountain to climb (although the CYN thing probably prohibits that) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgbeethree Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 42 minutes ago, Dr LBC said: Apples to oranges comparisons don't help you argument. You realize that right? A guy who is a professional fighter, much less a professional fighter who has been among the best in the world at his trade, would run through guys who have, at best, maybe been in a street fight or two in their lives against other layman fighters? That's not really saying a ton like you seem to think it is. The entire point of pro wrestling is (not unlike it's damn roots in the carnivals) that you shouldn't have to do a lot of thinking to enjoy it; it's like the circus. It's like the freakin' cheesy 80's action movies that made Arnold and Sly so much money. Yes, if you were to sit down and look for them you would find all manner of plot-holes, but you don't because unless it's something glaringly obvious that insults your intelligence, it would defeat your overall enjoyment. And I use that example for a reason... because you never saw the guy that was smaller than Arnold or Sly be able to stand with them for more than a couple blow exchanges, much less make them bleed, unless it was in some sort of gang tactic or the guy had a weapon. The Garcia hype train may go somewhere meaningful in the future, but if it happens before he actually fills out his frame some, he's not going to be taken seriously by any mainstream audience outside of the strict AEW loyalists - I'd wager to say hardly even in Japan, because we saw them need to build up (quite literally) Ospreay and similar junior heavyweights before they were given serious feature as a heavyweight main eventer. Wouldn't 5'10" 190# Sly be proof that people can suspend belief? I mean the whole Rocky franchise was built around him being able to out fight and out heart bigger meaner dudes wasn't it? Wouldn't your take be exactly the proof why either a smaller guy or Mr. Universe could be equally capable of being the big star if done right/well? And in real life fighting of the best of the best you've had guys like the aforementioned Gracie and light heavyweights like Randy Coutoure and Daniel Cormier (who looks about as out of shape as possible as well) all be UFC Heavyweight champions. We all know for an actual fact that the bigger buffer guy doesn't win a real version of the pretend version we are watching. People have to suspend belief for nearly everything in wrestling but draw the line at a little skinny? I just don't understand. People can suspend belief for a 50 year old Jericho. We know no 50 year old has ever been at the top of their sport. CM Punk who we know for a fact isn't a championship level real fighter can be champ? Like we all know Lashley and Lesnar would beat the ish out of Roman Reigns IRL but Reigns is the champ right? TLDR version.... We suspend our belief for A LOT of things while watching wrestling but if you can't do it for Daniel Garcia because he's skinny you're missing out because he's really good at what he does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Brown Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 5 hours ago, Texansfan713 said: the cody/seth match last night was better than any AEW match in their history. dont @ me haven't you watched like 20 mins of aew 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Brown Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 3 hours ago, Bullet Club said: If it was as good Hangman/Punk, which probably isn't a top 10 match in AEW history, then it's probably not better than any AEW match ever. Lol yeah I thought the punk hangman match was boring. I don't think Punk can go like the rest of the top of AEW honestly. Obviously still great in the ring but not because of his workrate. And no, I don't need a lecture about how I'm accustomed to spotfests now because Punk tried to do the same type of spots and slipped twice on the damn buckshots or whatever. I'm sure Cody Rollins was great. Rollins is great and Cody can go from time to time. His chest looked wild. I didn't watch it but it'd have to be pretty out of left field for Cody to suddenly outwork Omega or Danielson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 4 minutes ago, Troy Brown said: Lol yeah I thought the punk hangman match was boring. I don't think Punk can go like the rest of the top of AEW honestly. Obviously still great in the ring but not because of his workrate. And no, I don't need a lecture about how I'm accustomed to spotfests now because Punk tried to do the same type of spots and slipped twice on the damn buckshots or whatever. I'm sure Cody Rollins was great. Rollins is great and Cody can go from time to time. His chest looked wild. I didn't watch it but it'd have to be pretty out of left field for Cody to suddenly outwork Omega or Danielson Yeah, it's not even Punk's best match in AEW. Forget Omega and Danielson, Cody himself had an amazing AEW match on their first ever show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Brown Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 8 minutes ago, Bullet Club said: Yeah, it's not even Punk's best match in AEW. Forget Omega and Danielson, Cody himself had an amazing AEW match on their first ever show. True! It's easy to forget the best of Cody's work when all of his matches later tried to follow the same convoluted formula but Cody/Dustin was absolutely an all time great match. (I was there hehe hehe hehe) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcb1213 Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 16 hours ago, wgbeethree said: I don't care about this enough to actually argue but here I am 🤷♂️.... If you don't think Marty Usman would run through 99% of the NBA or Jon Jones would run through 99% of the NFL despite the size differences, "I can't help you". Jon Jones is 6'4. Rey Mysterio is 5'5. What a terrible analogy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcb1213 Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 3 hours ago, wgbeethree said: Wouldn't 5'10" 190# Sly be proof that people can suspend belief? I mean the whole Rocky franchise was built around him being able to out fight and out heart bigger meaner dudes wasn't it? Wouldn't your take be exactly the proof why either a smaller guy or Mr. Universe could be equally capable of being the big star if done right/well? And in real life fighting of the best of the best you've had guys like the aforementioned Gracie and light heavyweights like Randy Coutoure and Daniel Cormier (who looks about as out of shape as possible as well) all be UFC Heavyweight champions. We all know for an actual fact that the bigger buffer guy doesn't win a real version of the pretend version we are watching. People have to suspend belief for nearly everything in wrestling but draw the line at a little skinny? I just don't understand. People can suspend belief for a 50 year old Jericho. We know no 50 year old has ever been at the top of their sport. CM Punk who we know for a fact isn't a championship level real fighter can be champ? Like we all know Lashley and Lesnar would beat the ish out of Roman Reigns IRL but Reigns is the champ right? TLDR version.... We suspend our belief for A LOT of things while watching wrestling but if you can't do it for Daniel Garcia because he's skinny you're missing out because he's really good at what he does. 1. Boxing is differnt than fighting. When a guy can't physically pick you up, tackle u etc, you can stick and move 2. Phil Michelson won the PGA at 51 last year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Brown Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 Idk what the argument is really but yall its ok, Garcia is 23, went through a horrific car accident and is just starting his career as a full time pro wrestler. He's already bigger now than when he debuted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr LBC Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 2 hours ago, Troy Brown said: Idk what the argument is really but yall its ok, Garcia is 23, went through a horrific car accident and is just starting his career as a full time pro wrestler. He's already bigger now than when he debuted. This has largely been the point I've been trying to make. I've been aware of Garcia since he was 21, when he worked a show in Maine that my friend was managing the opposition. He's got talent and a ton of potential, that he'll likely realize... but the fact remains, he's young, still coming back from that car accident, and needs time in the gym to fill out before he should be in serious spots at or beyond the upper-mid-card unless it's as an also-ran tag partner to established upper-carders (which for right now, I suppose Jericho constitutes, but I've made my feelings on him known). He's where Waltman was at that age, he doesn't need to be in the main event or booked like a badass (I said the same thing about Jungle Boy when he got his initial push - Darby is the lone exception because his diminutive size is part of his gimmick and adds to the austere of his devil-may-care style). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texansfan713 Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 whoever was in charge of this swerve just now needs to get a big raise. Definitely didnt see this coming. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livewire Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 That was absolutely excellent. I haven't been that stunned in a long time. I figured Finn would trick them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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