Official 2020 WR Thread

[jrry32]

22 minutes ago, goldfishwars said:

Favors the receivers for sure but he was beating guys in 1 on 1s at a much higher rate than his counterparts. The defensive backs had a pretty dominant week outside of Mims. Not always razor sharp and clean, but the foot quickness is there for a big guy and my dude is twisting his man up a little more than once. He's not afraid to mix it up and play to his size advantage though that's for sure. Beautiful catch over his shoulder, tracking is impressive. 

I'm not taking him if I need someone to slot right in and contribute now. I'd be weary if I were the Vikings, say. The ceiling is high, but it'll take some time. 

Looking at the rosters, the only other guys I see who should do well in a drill like that are Pittman (with physicality, not so much route running), K.J. Hill, Van Jefferson, and Brandon Aiyuk. Although, Aiyuk is also somewhat raw as a route runner. He just has great separation quickness.

[jrry32]

3 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

Great post.

This is a great example of how he's mechanical and doesn't think through things. But the UTSA clip shows that he's TRYING to become a salesman and technician. He has a 2 way go and he uses it by attacking inside leverage to create space for his out breaking route. I agree that a sharp cut probably would have sufficed. Either that or it was his coaches who told him to run the route like that (which is...). He just doesn't have the coaching and Baylor runs a hilariously simple route tree/offense.

 

Thanks. I actually just discovered a Youtube account uploading All-22 footage of the targets for the top WRs. While that's not as valuable as all receiving snaps would be, it's still extremely helpful to evaluating route running. It's often not easy to do that without the All-22 footage. Hat's off to whomever that person is. For those who aren't aware of it, this is the account:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtBCRt-5IbP1uggiqCdUvdQ

[MrOaktown_56]

Just now, jrry32 said:

Thanks. I actually just discovered a Youtube account uploading All-22 footage of the targets for the top WRs. While that's not as valuable as all receiving snaps would be, it's still extremely helpful to evaluating route running. It's often not easy to do that without the All-22 footage. Hat's off to whomever that person is. For those who aren't aware of it, this is the account:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtBCRt-5IbP1uggiqCdUvdQ

Ah yes Brad Kelly. He's a good WR evaluator, but also can be a bit unsavory at times on social media. He actually has Ruggs as WR1 last time I checked.

[BobbyPhil1781]

Who do you guys feel is the best evaluator of WRs? I'm anxious to see some new people's opinions on some of these guys. I am enamored with this class and would like to see what other evaluators have as good mid-round guys.

[jrry32]

8 minutes ago, JTagg7754 said:

Who do you guys feel is the best evaluator of WRs? I'm anxious to see some new people's opinions on some of these guys. I am enamored with this class and would like to see what other evaluators have as good mid-round guys.

I couldn't really say. I don't follow Draft Twitter. I've always respected Brugler, Zierlein, and Norris because their takes indicated to me that they actually do put the work in to watch everybody they discuss (that's not so true for others). But that's more a general respect than me saying they're great WR evaluators. But I certainly review their scouting reports after I watch a prospect to see if there's something I might have missed (and then will rewatch if to see if I see it). 

[tyler735]

I feel like one prospect who has flown under the radar a bit is Devin Duvernay. He's one of my favorite sleeper prospects in the draft this year.  Draft sites are all over the board with him as I've seen him recently being projected as high as the 2nd round, and as low as being undrafted. He's a prospect I'd be thrilled to see the Saints get with their 3rd round pick, and think in most drafts he should be viewed as a 2nd round caliber prospect, but with the draft being so deep this year I could seem him dropping to the 3rd, and possibly even the 4th round. He is one of the more unique WR prospects this year, which is likely why his rankings seem to be all over the place. He has a ton to like about him, but there are certainly some concerns with his game as well. I do however think these concerns aren't significant enough to pass on all the positives he brings as a prospect. 

Some of the main positives to his game are:

Explosiveness- He ran in the 4.3's at the combine, and has run the 100m as fast as 10.27 in the 100m, which for those don't follow track is an excellent time. For reference Marquise Goodwin ran a 10.29 100m and is one of the fastest players currently in the NFL. His fastest recorded MPH is 22.5, which would also be among the fastest recorded by any NFL player. More importantly then all of those numbers however is that he has shown he can utilize this explosiveness effectively on the field. He has shown the ability to both beat teams deep and take the quick pass the distance if given a crease.

Hands- He caught 105 passes this past season with only 3 dropped passes. For his entire 4 year career he only had 5 dropped passes (3 dropped passes in 2019, which gave him one of the best dropped pass rates in NCAA). He is up near the top of the list in this draft class when it comes to hands. He has shown he can fight through contact and make contested catches. He also has made some highlight reel catches throughout his time at Texas. He isn't a body catcher, and plucks the ball well out of the air with his hands.

Physicality- He is built like a RB, and doesn't really have the typical WR body type. He has used that to his advantage, as he is has been excellent with the ball in his hands after the catch. He doesn't shy away from contact, and effectively utilizes his combo of strength/explosiveness to create after the catch. He led the NCAA in Yards After Catch this past season with 719. He also was 3rd in the NCAA in yards after contact with 352. He also forced the 2nd most missed tackles in the NCAA with 22.

Other notables- He has shown to be durable throughout his college career and hasn't had any injury issues. Is viewed as a high character guy, and was named captain. He had some of his best production against the best competition he faced. His game against National Championship winning LSU may have been his best game of the year. 

 

Negatives- As mentioned above he is built a bit like a RB, which can have it's Pros and Cons, despite having all that explosiveness, he isn't nearly as fluid in his routes/making cuts as some of the other top WR's such as guys like Jeudy, or Hamler. Duvernay's route running in general is also not nearly advanced as some of the other top prospects and he primarily worked out of the slot this past season.

 

Typically the lack of route running would be a kiss of death as a prospect, but given his combination of explosiveness, superb hands, and physicality, I think he can still be a dangerous WR in the NFL. I think a team such as the Saints would be able to mask some of his deficiencies, and play well into his strengths. I've seen Duvernay compared to players such as Deebo Samuel, which seems like a good comparison in terms of physicality, but Duvernay also has an extra gear that a guy like Samuel doesn't possess to take the top off a defense. I think whoever drafts Duvernay is going to get themselves a steal if he makes it the 3rd/4th round. I don't think he will ever be a true dominant #1 type WR, but I could see him being a very good #2 for a team.

 

Obligatory highlight vid:

 

[SaveOurSonics]

SoS Full WR Rankings

1. CeeDee Lamb // Oklahoma
2. Jerry Jeudy // Alabama
3. Henry Ruggs III // Alabama
4. Justin Jefferson // LSU
5. Denzel Mims // Baylor
6. Tee Higgins // Clemson
7. Brandon Aiyuk // Arizona State
8. Jalen Reagor // TCU
9. Laviska Shenault Jr. // Colorado
10. Michael Pittman Jr. // USC
11. Devin Duvernay // Texas 😴
12. Van Jefferson // Florida
13. Jonathan Hightower // Boise State
14. K.J. Hamler // Penn State
15. Isaiah Hodgins // Oregon State
16. Bryan Edwards // South Carolina
17. Freddie Swain // Florida
18. Jeff Thomas // Miami
19. Donovan Peoples-Jones // Michigan
20. Tyler Johnson // Minnesota
21. Chase Claypool // Notre Dame 🔥
22. Quez Watkins // Southern Mississippi
23. Jauan Jennings // Tennessee
24. K.J. Hill // Ohio State
25. Quartney Davis // Texas A&M
26. Quintez Cephus // Wisconsin
27. Aaron Parker // Rhode Island
28. Antonio Gandy-Golden // Liberty
29. Gabriel Davis // Central Florida
30. James Proche // SMU
31. Collin Johnson // Texas
32. Kalija Lipscomb // Vanderbilt

 

FWIW I have Lamb as the definitive #1 WR in this class with Jeudy more in the Ruggs/Jefferson class. I won't be the least bit surprised to see Ruggs actually go as the #2 WR in tomorrow's 1st round. 

As @tyler735 above mentioned, Duvernay is sorely underrated and is essentially this year's version of Deebo Samuel. Freddie Swain is another guy who gets entirely too slept on, but he brings a Doug Baldwin like skill set that I would love my team to mold at the pro level. As you can tell I'm pretty tough on small school prospects. They need to wow me on tape to earn high marks. Quez Watkins was the closest to doing so with this blazing speed and great improvements in his ability to track the football late in his career. 

Lots of big-bodied slot possession receivers in this class, most notably Bryan Edwards, DPJ, Tyler Johnson, Jauan Jennings, and Quintez Cephus. 

Edited April 22, 2020 by SaveOurSonics

[sherm]

12 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

 

These 4 fit the mold of wr Kyle likes. 

[tyler735]

6 minutes ago, sherm said:

These 4 fit the mold of wr Kyle likes. 

Yeah I could definitely see them looking at those 4 especially with the departure of Sanders seems like a WR could be an early pick for the 49ers.

[sherm]

57 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

Yeah I could definitely see them looking at those 4 especially with the departure of Sanders seems like a WR could be an early pick for the 49ers.

As a 49er fan I'd be cool with Lamb at 13 but not super excited. I rather wait till 31 or later. This draft is gonna have some crazy value on day 2 and 3. 

[jrry32]

1 hour ago, SaveOurSonics said:

SoS Full WR Rankings

1. CeeDee Lamb // Oklahoma
2. Jerry Jeudy // Alabama
3. Henry Ruggs III // Alabama
4. Justin Jefferson // LSU
5. Denzel Mims // Baylor
6. Tee Higgins // Clemson
7. Brandon Aiyuk // Arizona State
8. Jalen Reagor // TCU
9. Laviska Shenault Jr. // Colorado
10. Michael Pittman Jr. // USC
11. Devin Duvernay // Texas 😴
12. Van Jefferson // Florida
13. Jonathan Hightower // Boise State
14. K.J. Hamler // Penn State
15. Isaiah Hodgins // Oregon State
16. Bryan Edwards // South Carolina
17. Freddie Swain // Florida
18. Jeff Thomas // Miami
19. Donovan Peoples-Jones // Michigan
20. Tyler Johnson // Minnesota
21. Chase Claypool // Notre Dame 🔥
22. Quez Watkins // Southern Mississippi
23. Jauan Jennings // Tennessee
24. K.J. Hill // Ohio State
25. Quartney Davis // Texas A&M
26. Quintez Cephus // Wisconsin
27. Aaron Parker // Rhode Island
28. Antonio Gandy-Golden // Liberty
29. Gabriel Davis // Central Florida
30. James Proche // SMU
31. Collin Johnson // Texas
32. Kalija Lipscomb // Vanderbilt

 

FWIW I have Lamb as the definitive #1 WR in this class with Jeudy more in the Ruggs/Jefferson class. I won't be the least bit surprised to see Ruggs actually go as the #2 WR in tomorrow's 1st round. 

As @tyler735 above mentioned, Duvernay is sorely underrated and is essentially this year's version of Deebo Samuel. Freddie Swain is another guy who gets entirely too slept on, but he brings a Doug Baldwin like skill set that I would love my team to mold at the pro level. As you can tell I'm pretty tough on small school prospects. They need to wow me on tape to earn high marks. Quez Watkins was the closest to doing so with this blazing speed and great improvements in his ability to track the football late in his career. 

Lots of big-bodied slot possession receivers in this class, most notably Bryan Edwards, DPJ, Tyler Johnson, Jauan Jennings, and Quintez Cephus. 

IMO, you're way too low on Tyler Johnson and way too high on Devin Duvernay. Johnson's physical traits are nothing special, but he sees the field like a QB, understands route running in a way you rarely see from college WRs, and has a lot of the subtleties of the art form down. He also possesses a bully mentality with the ability to go up and get the football. IMO, he's a guy who will produce early in his career and often.

On Duvernay, I think he's a guy who suffers from mismatched parts. He's built like a slot WR but doesn't have the route running and separation quickness to dominate there. He has the top-end speed of an outside WR without the explosive burst needed for easy separation and the size/quickness to deal with boundary CBs. He kind of reminds me of Carlos Henderson. Dangerous with the ball in his hands, but you're going to have to scheme it there because he's not that good without it.

[SaveOurSonics]

1 minute ago, jrry32 said:

IMO, you're way too low on Tyler Johnson and way too high on Devin Duvernay. Johnson's physical traits are nothing special, but he sees the field like a QB, understands route running in a way you rarely see from college WRs, and has a lot of the subtleties of the art form down. He also possesses a bully mentality with the ability to go up and get the football. IMO, he's a guy who will produce early in his career and often.

On Duvernay, I think he's a guy who suffers from mismatched parts. He's built like a slot WR but doesn't have the route running and separation quickness to dominate there. He has the top-end speed of an outside WR without the explosive burst needed for easy separation and the size/quickness to deal with boundary CBs. He kind of reminds me of Carlos Henderson. Dangerous with the ball in his hands, but you're going to have to scheme it there because he's not that good without it.

The most I could justify moving Tyler Johnson up is to #18 (and as I consider it, almost definitely should over DPJ). He maximizes his athletic deficiencies with nuanced route running, feel for soft zones, and great hands, but that's a really low ceiling prospect in my estimation. At best he's a chain-moving, catch-and-fall slot receiver, and I'd rather gamble on the guys ahead of him. 

A quality OC should find ways to scheme Duvernay the football. He's got great NFL speed and NFL physicality and showed off some downfield chops in his final season. Is he a work in progress? Sure, but I'll gamble on a guy with those traits. It's much of what we heard regarding Golden Tate, and he has turned into a great pro receiver. 

[jrry32]

51 minutes ago, SaveOurSonics said:

The most I could justify moving Tyler Johnson up is to #18 (and as I consider it, almost definitely should over DPJ). He maximizes his athletic deficiencies with nuanced route running, feel for soft zones, and great hands, but that's a really low ceiling prospect in my estimation. At best he's a chain-moving, catch-and-fall slot receiver, and I'd rather gamble on the guys ahead of him. 

I'm a little shocked you'd say that. I think you just named three of the most important qualities for success in the NFL. Route running, feel/instincts/football IQ, and hands are traits productive WRs almost always have. Johnson has the quickness and body control to separate. And he has some ability to win in the air. I look at a guy like Cooper Kupp who had many of the same criticisms and see how productive he has been. Kupp was stronger, a little quicker, and better after the catch, but I think Johnson is better at going up and getting the football. Ultimately, I don't think Johnson is quite Kupp good, but I would draft him over Van Jefferson (and I am a Gator fan). His skill-set reminds me of T.J. Houshmandzadeh.

Quote

A quality OC should find ways to scheme Duvernay the football. He's got great NFL speed and NFL physicality and showed off some downfield chops in his final season. Is he a work in progress? Sure, but I'll gamble on a guy with those traits. It's much of what we heard regarding Golden Tate, and he has turned into a great pro receiver. 

There were two things that Golden had that I think Duvernay lacks:

1. The ability to win in the air against bigger defenders; and

2. The quickness in and out of breaks to get easy separation on the outside and in the slot.

Edited April 22, 2020 by jrry32

[SaveOurSonics]

46 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

I'm a little shocked you'd say that. I think you just named three of the most important qualities for success in the NFL. Route running, feel/instincts/football IQ, and hands are traits productive WRs almost always have. Johnson has the quickness and body control to separate. And he has some ability to win in the air. I look at a guy like Cooper Kupp who had many of the same criticisms and see how productive he has been. Kupp was stronger, a little quicker, and better after the catch, but I think Johnson is better at going up and getting the football. Ultimately, I don't think Johnson is quite Kupp good, but I would draft him over Van Jefferson (and I am a Gator fan). His skill-set reminds me of T.J. Houshmandzadeh.

I don't see nearly the same ceiling with Tyler. The things you mentioned Kupp being better at are what can separate a great possession receiver and a JAG. Tyler rarely gets his man out of his hip pocket and relies on making contested catches. That latter ability will translate for the most part, but NFL DBs are going to be even more aggressive in sticking on him and suffocating him as a target. 

The reason I prefer Van Jefferson is because he's a far more decisive route runner with the ability to consistently separate at the intermediate level of the field. If you get Van in an NFL strength and conditioning program and coach up his physicality at the point of attack, he can be a far more complete receiver than Tyler. 

I think the biggest difference in our opinions is that you see Johnson's deficiencies as something he can overcome with his strengths to project to similar successful prospects, whereas I think those will be persistent hinderances on his potential and push him toward the majority, not the exceptions. 

[SaveOurSonics]

What you see in Tyler Johnson is what I see in Bryan Edwards. Edwards has a little more giddy up and sharpness in his route concepts and provides many of the same strengths that Tyler does.