Official 2020 WR Thread

[showtime]

3 hours ago, SaveOurSonics said:

As @tyler735 above mentioned, Duvernay is sorely underrated and is essentially this year's version of Deebo Samuel.

I like that comparison.  What teams do you think best suit him and the type of player he is?  Also, do you think he can ever become a solid route runner - has he shown progression in that department throughout his time at Texas?

[jrry32]

Just now, SaveOurSonics said:

I don't see nearly the same ceiling with Tyler. The things you mentioned Kupp being better at are what can separate a great possession receiver and a JAG. Tyler rarely gets his man out of his hip pocket and relies on making contested catches. That latter ability will translate for the most part, but NFL DBs are going to be even more aggressive in sticking on him and suffocating him as a target. 

The reason I prefer Van Jefferson is because he's a far more decisive route runner with the ability to consistently separate at the intermediate level of the field. If you get Van in an NFL strength and conditioning program and coach up his physicality at the point of attack, he can be a far more complete receiver than Tyler. 

I think the biggest difference in our opinions is that you see Johnson's deficiencies as something he can overcome with his strengths to project to similar successful prospects, whereas I think those will be persistent hinderances on his potential and push him toward the majority, not the exceptions. 

Van is a coach's son who is basically a four-year starter at two legit SEC programs. His lack of physicality and play strength aren't things I see changing at this point. As for TJ, I think he has a real skill for creating throwing windows and enough separation. Maybe that worries people that better players in the NFL will smother him, but I've seen that skill translate often. It's great to create miles of separation in college, but a guy who understands how to work within congestion, open those small windows, and win that way is going to be more ready for what he's facing in the NFL.

People made the mistake of assuming Kupp couldn't separate against man coverage (largely based on flawed analytics and not understanding what they're seeing on film) because Kupp's offense often asked him to either be a decoy or ran him into coverage without options. Johnson dealt with some of the same at Minnesota. The biggest difference in the NFL is going to be the options he has on the inside. And that's where I think he'll shine. He sees the field so well and really understands the big picture of what his offense and QB are trying to do on any given play.

[jrry32]

5 minutes ago, SaveOurSonics said:

What you see in Tyler Johnson is what I see in Bryan Edwards. Edwards has a little more giddy up and sharpness in his route concepts and provides many of the same strengths that Tyler does. 

I see Bryan Edwards as more like Allen Robinson. When he's on his game, he's an underrated athlete who runs sharp routes and creates after the catch. He's a better talent with a higher ceiling than TJ. The problem with Bryan is that he has game where he goes through the motions and other games where he busts his butt and looks dominant (ex. Bama). I'd take a shot on him because of the talent, but you have to count on the motor being consistently there in the NFL.

[SaveOurSonics]

3 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Van is a coach's son who is basically a four-year starter at two legit SEC programs. His lack of physicality and play strength aren't things I see changing at this point. As for TJ, I think he has a real skill for creating throwing windows and enough separation. Maybe that worries people that better players in the NFL will smother him, but I've seen that skill translate often. It's great to create miles of separation in college, but a guy who understands how to work within congestion, open those small windows, and win that way is going to be more ready for what he's facing in the NFL.

People made the mistake of assuming Kupp couldn't separate against man coverage (largely based on flawed analytics and not understanding what they're seeing on film) because Kupp's offense often asked him to either be a decoy or ran him into coverage without options. Johnson dealt with some of the same at Minnesota. The biggest difference in the NFL is going to be the options he has on the inside. And that's where I think he'll shine. He sees the field so well and really understands the big picture of what his offense and QB are trying to do on any given play.

Very fair point on Van. It's certainly a weakness but when we're talking drafting and developing guys, I'll take his skill set. 

Again, I think the biggest difference between us is the potential ceiling of Tyler Johnson. I agree, he's going to be a nice big-bodied security blanket for his QB out of the slot, but I disagree that he could even sniff Kupp's potential. We can talk about "most people" all we want, but I had Kupp with a 2nd round grade and have Tyler Johnson with a 4th-5th round grade. I really don't see them as all that similar. Depending on what you need out of this draft, a big-bodied, catch-and-fall slot receiver might be a really nice fit. "Potential" goes a long ways on scouting reports, and that's the biggest gap in our takeaway. 

[Forge]

2 hours ago, sherm said:

As a 49er fan I'd be cool with Lamb at 13 but not super excited. I rather wait till 31 or later. This draft is gonna have some crazy value on day 2 and 3. 

Its super annoying for me, to be honest. I think you have it good because you're a kinlaw fan and you'd be happy to take him there. I'm not a huge Kinlaw fan for us, and if you take the wide receivers away, unless a tackle slips (and it has to be the correct tackle), there's really nothing that interests me at 13 lol. It's almost receiver by default. 

[SaveOurSonics]

11 minutes ago, showtime said:

I like that comparison.  What teams do you think best suit him and the type of player he is?  Also, do you think he can ever become a solid route runner - has he shown progression in that department throughout his time at Texas?

I can't really speak on team fits and all that. Don't really keep my thumb on the pulse of all 32 organizations like that to be honest. 

Jrry isn't wrong, route running is his most glaring weakness. He lacks a lot of the technical refinement from a footwork standpoint that you're looking for, but where he does excel is identifying the soft zones and getting to his mark, which can be relied upon when schemed correctly. He's also fearless over the middle so he should be able to succeed in the noise between the hashmarks. 

[jrry32]

7 minutes ago, SaveOurSonics said:

Very fair point on Van. It's certainly a weakness but when we're talking drafting and developing guys, I'll take his skill set. 

Again, I think the biggest difference between us is the potential ceiling of Tyler Johnson. I agree, he's going to be a nice big-bodied security blanket for his QB out of the slot, but I disagree that he could even sniff Kupp's potential. We can talk about "most people" all we want, but I had Kupp with a 2nd round grade and have Tyler Johnson with a 4th-5th round grade. I really don't see them as all that similar. Depending on what you need out of this draft, a big-bodied, catch-and-fall slot receiver might be a really nice fit. "Potential" goes a long ways on scouting reports, and that's the biggest gap in our takeaway. 

I think he's more than just a catch-and-fall third down guy. He's not a great YAC WR like Kupp, but he has some shiftiness and will certainly work to get what's there after the catch. I see him as an effective chain mover inside. He's quick, polished, very smart, and able to bring the ball down in traffic. Like I said, I think he's a lot like T.J. Houshmandzadeh. He won't burn you deep (unless you get an obvious mismatch), but he can be a nuisance in the short and intermediate ranges.

[tyler735]

17 hours ago, SaveOurSonics said:

A quality OC should find ways to scheme Duvernay the football. He's got great NFL speed and NFL physicality and showed off some downfield chops in his final season. Is he a work in progress? Sure, but I'll gamble on a guy with those traits. It's much of what we heard regarding Golden Tate, and he has turned into a great pro receiver. 

Agreed with your thoughts on Duvernay he has such a unique skillset. There aren't many WR prospects that you could say are among the fastest in their class, among the most physical in their class, and have some of the best hands in their class, but Duvernay seems to fit that description. I'd be surprised if those skills don't translate at the next level. 

Someone else mentioned they are concerned about him not being able to separate down field against NFL CB's, but I'm not really concerned about that given how explosive he is, even if he is a more of a straight line guy that doesn't possess great agility.

Heres some plays highlighting his deep explosiveness.

Here he puts a subtle move on the Safety (Antoine Brooks- Likely a mid round pick in a few days) early in the route and turns on the jets leaving him in the dust for a touchdown...The catch isn't so bad either lol

Here he is lined up outside on a stop and go and blows by the CB (Damarcus Fields a big athletic CB who is one of the better CB's in the Big 12) and still comes down with the football for a touchdown despite being severely underthrown and interfered with.

Here Duvernay beats Safety Trevon Moehrig deep with a nice cut upfield to get separation deep. Moehrig is a 1st team Big 12 Safety and PFF has stated he is clearly the best Safety in college football.

Here he is running by 1st team Big 12 CB Jordan Thomas.

Here's a gif of him playing on the perimeter showing his explosiveness out of a cut getting easy separation deep

 

With him spending so much time playing in the slot there isn't a ton of footage of him beating CB's on the perimeter, but I have no doubt he has the explosiveness to be a deep threat in the NFL.

Edited April 23, 2020 by tyler735

[massraider]

Duvernay made McGinn's list of top 100, maybe a 3rd rounder. 

Him going to BAL would be fun

[sherm]

1 hour ago, Forge said:

Its super annoying for me, to be honest. I think you have it good because you're a kinlaw fan and you'd be happy to take him there. I'm not a huge Kinlaw fan for us, and if you take the wide receivers away, unless a tackle slips (and it has to be the correct tackle), there's really nothing that interests me at 13 lol. It's almost receiver by default. 

Yeah I like Kinlaw potential(especially with our DL) but if I were to be honest I don't have 1 player that has me super excited about grabbing at 13. There's a handful of players I'm good with. 

[BleedTheClock]

Duvernay is a stud. No reason he couldn’t go in the 2nd round other than that it’s a loaded class. 

[Jeezla]

Duvernay is fast in a straight line, but has no agility.

[jrry32]

16 minutes ago, Jeezla said:

Duvernay is fast in a straight line, but has no agility.

And there's my problem. Not quick enough for the slot, doesn't have the explosive burst to get easy separation deep outside, and doesn't have the ability to dominate in the air. He's dangerous with the ball in his hands, but I think he's a guy who will be too reliant on scheming him touches.

[Jeezla]

1 minute ago, jrry32 said:

And there's my problem. Not quick enough for the slot, doesn't have the explosive burst to get easy separation deep outside, and doesn't have the ability to dominate in the air. He's dangerous with the ball in his hands, but I think he's a guy who will be too reliant on scheming him touches.

I think he needs to lose 10 lbs. He looks like Donte Whitner playing WR, but faster.

[sherm]

8 minutes ago, Jeezla said:

I think he needs to lose 10 lbs. He looks like Donte Whitner playing WR, but faster.

Lol Hitner always looked top heavy. He was yoked up.