Official 2020 DL/EDGE Thread

[BrownLeader]

12 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

I haven't evaluated Chaisson, but I highly doubt that. Josh Allen could have played as an off-the-ball LB like Anthony Barr is. He was that good in coverage and space.

Allen was coordinated and smooth in space but he still looked like a DE. Chaisson looks like a LB and runs down WRs.

[Scoundrel]

So Epenesa, YGM, or Chaisson in a 4-3 at End

[BrownLeader]

3 minutes ago, Counselor said:

So Epenesa, YGM, or Chaisson in a 4-3 at End

Chaisson if he gains that man strength.

Epenesa if those hands work against grown OTs.

YGM if he stays in the weight room.

[Ozzy]

50 minutes ago, Counselor said:

So Epenesa, YGM, or Chaisson in a 4-3 at End

Chaisson in a 4/3 down DE position, is that a joke?  No way he ends up with a 4/3 team unless they want him to literally play linebacker instead.  Chaisson could not hold the edge and is not physical enough to be a ever down, hand in the dirt DE.  

 

Chase Young, AJ Epenesa, Yetur Gross-Matos, Curtis Weaver and James Lynch are the dudes you want as a 4/3 DE.  Lynch might even be able to play DT possibly no doubt and maybe even, Gross-Matos.  

 

[Scoundrel]

1 minute ago, Ozzy said:

Chaisson in a 4/3 down DE position, is that a joke?  No way he ends up with a 4/3 team unless they want him to literally play linebacker instead.  Chaisson could not hold the edge and is not physical enough to be a ever down, hand in the dirt DE.  

 

Chase Young, AJ Epenesa, Yetur Gross-Matos, Curtis Weaver and James Lynch are the dudes you want as a 4/3 DE.  Lynch might even be able to play DT possibly no doubt and maybe even, Gross-Matos.  

 

Im asking who you would take 

[badgers0821]

2 hours ago, Counselor said:

So Epenesa, YGM, or Chaisson in a 4-3 at End

Wasn’t YGM named as a ring leader in the suit against PSU and Franklin? I imagine that will drop him from some teams boards.

[Ragnarok]

58 minutes ago, badgers0821 said:

Wasn’t YGM named as a ring leader in the suit against PSU and Franklin? I imagine that will drop him from some teams boards.

Only if Tom Coughlin was still running a team.  

[MSURacerDT55]

18 hours ago, BrownLeader said:

There's nothing wrong with Chaisson's motor. His technique and recognition are inconsistent but I've seen him walk back much bigger guys at the poa. He can track down WRs in the open field and play sound coverage down the seam and the flat. He flashes big time edge ability. It's a question of whether he'll get stronger and more precise as a pro. Given his character I think it's a good bet he will.

My thing is, he's doing this with Ed Orgeron who is one of the best Defensive line coaches on the planet coaching him, that's concerning to me, its not like he's going to go the NFL and have coaches at his position much better than what he's getting. He has plenty of tools no lie but teams will continue to expose you if you aren't disciplined in your game and play with some degree of intelligence.

 

15 hours ago, Counselor said:

So Epenesa, YGM, or Chaisson in a 4-3 at End

Epenesa all day, I don't think any of the other two can offer in the run game what Epenesa can right now, he can come to a team right now and set someone's edge as well as be a consistent factor affecting the QB

[BrownLeader]

On 1/14/2020 at 10:21 PM, Ozzy said:

I will say again, yeah give me Josh Allen over Chaisson every day of the week but lucky for him Allen is already in the league.  

Think it also needs to be said that Josh Allen wasn't very good last year. Sack total looks great but the majority were coverage clean ups and garbage variety. Credit to him in that he obviously hustled for those but he wasn't a good pass rush rusher, he was awful vs the run and not good in space or coverage. He didn't play like a top ten pick.

[.Buzz]

51 minutes ago, BrownLeader said:

Think it also needs to be said that Josh Allen wasn't very good last year. Sack total looks great but the majority were coverage clean ups and garbage variety. Credit to him in that he obviously hustled for those but he wasn't a good pass rush rusher, he was awful vs the run and not good in space or coverage. He didn't play like a top ten pick.

Get out of here with this...what?

Thread:

Those sacks don't look like they're all coverage/garbage sacks to me. Not to mention you act like players across the league don't get a handful of those eevry year.

He's doing what he's doing off pure physical talent so far as he is still learning pass rush moves (like most young pass rushers).

He had 38 pressures as a rookie while only playing a fraction of the snaps if you want to compare to Nick Boss (who had 45). He had 22 QB hits compared to Bosa's 25.

Double team rate (can't find final season update but this is mid-December):

 

I'm not sure what you're talking about as far as him not playing like a top 10 pick. He looks the part of an elite edge for the next 10-12 years with continued development.

Acting as if he "lucked into sacks" just isn't correct. If it was, there'd be more than a handful of pass rushers over the past decade that'd reach double digits. The only guys who have since 2010 (this list didn't include Crosby because he hadn't prior to this tweet):

 

As far as "being poor in the run game and coverage", care to bring some statistical evidence because I sure didn't see a guy who struggled. He was rarely ever asked to even go in coverage...our DC heavily underused him because we had Yan and Calais play a lot of snaps on the edge.

Edited January 16, 2020 by .Buzz

[BrownLeader]

8 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

Those sacks don't look like they're all coverage/garbage sacks to me.

You're right, not all. Only around 8 of his 10.5

12 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

I'm not sure what you're talking about as far as him not playing like a top 10 pick. He looks the part of an elite edge for the next 10-12 years with continued development.

They reduced his snaps early on once they recognized he was getting destroyed vs the run. He rarely showed the open field mobility he was touted to have. They reduced his role to pass rush specialist only...and he was ok enough. But again, he was basically a hustling clean up guy. The majority of his rush attempts were futile. CB DJ Hayden was a more impactful pass rusher. The defense as a whole plummeted despite strong seasons from Ngakoue, Campbell, J.Wilson, Jacobs, Bryan and Herndon.

[.Buzz]

7 minutes ago, BrownLeader said:

You're right, not all. Only around 8 of his 10.5

They reduced his snaps early on once they recognized he was getting destroyed vs the run. He rarely showed the open field mobility he was touted to have. They reduced his role to pass rush specialist only...and he was ok enough. But again, he was basically a hustling clean up guy. The majority of his rush attempts were futile. CB DJ Hayden was a more impactful pass rusher. The defense as a whole plummeted despite strong seasons from Ngakoue, Campbell, J.Wilson, Jacobs, Bryan and Herndon.

You watched that video and seriously characterize 8 of those as cleanup/garbage sacks?

Also, super odd for NFL coaches to double team Josh Allen at one of the highest rated for edges in football (as a rookie, mind you) if he's just a "hustling, cleanup guy" as you say. Especially considering his pressure rate was super high.

Again, got any evidence to back up your claims that he isn't good against the run besides low snap totals on a DL that features Calais Campbell and Yannick Ngakoue (if you mean to sit here and tell me Ngakoue is better against the run than I have a lakefront property in Kansas to sell you)?

The defense plummeted because we had trash LBs and Dareus was our only run stuffer but he got hurt early-midseason and Abry Jones who is a decent depth guy had to step in. We literally had guys off the streets starting in our LB corps and Akeem Spence who was cut who we brought in to patchwork it.

This defense fell off because of lack of talent outside of the edge rushers (although Herndon looks like a keeper and Hayden is great)

 

Edited January 16, 2020 by .Buzz

[BrownLeader]

46 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

You watched that video and seriously characterize 8 of those as cleanup/garbage sacks?

Also, super odd for NFL coaches to double team Josh Allen at one of the highest rated for edges in football (as a rookie, mind you) if he's just a "hustling, cleanup guy" as you say. Especially considering his pressure rate was super high.

Again, got any evidence to back up your claims that he isn't good against the run besides low snap totals on a DL that features Calais Campbell and Yannick Ngakoue (if you mean to sit here and tell me Ngakoue is better against the run than I have a lakefront property in Kansas to sell you)?

The defense plummeted because we had trash LBs and Dareus was our only run stuffer but he got hurt early-midseason and Abry Jones who is a decent depth guy had to step in. We literally had guys off the streets starting in our LB corps and Akeem Spence who was cut who we brought in to patchwork it.

This defense fell off because of lack of talent outside of the edge rushers (although Herndon looks like a keeper and Hayden is great)

 

Absolutely those were mostly coverage/clean up sacks. I spent a good portion of the day looking at his snaps, game to game, as I wanted to compare him to Chaisson, and I have no clue where that double team data comes from. Ngakoue gets more snaps because he's a much more impactful pass rusher. At some point I might circle back and gif up some of his plays but all I've got for you is that PFF had him 47th among 119 edge defenders with a 42th pass rush grade. Obviously then, his run defense among edge guys is even lower than 47th. They said, " Allen has had some truly impressive reps — but he has been only an above-average pass-rusher in his rookie season, not elite like his sack totals would suggest." 

Edited January 16, 2020 by BrownLeader

[.Buzz]

18 minutes ago, BrownLeader said:

Absolutely those were mostly coverage/clean up sacks. I spent a good portion of the day looking at his snaps, game to game, as I wanted to compare him to Chaisson, and I have no clue where that double team data comes from. Ngakoue gets more snaps because he's a much more impactful pass rusher. At some point I might circle back and gif up some of his plays but all I've got for you is that PFF had him 47th among 119 edge defenders with a 42th pass rush grade. Obviously then, his run defense among edge guys is even lower than 47th. They said, " Allen has had some truly impressive reps — but he has been only an above-average pass-rusher in his rookie season, not elite like his sack totals would suggest." 

I would absolutely love a second opinion on that clip of each sack then because if all of those 80 percent of those are him "lucking into a sack" via coverages/teammates than I don't know what the hell I'm supposed to see an edge rusher do. I agree there's a couple where the QB held it too long/it was a hustle play, but even the FF on Darnold he whipped the LT and Darnold just happened to scramble to the opposite side immediately. I just find it funny that you think edges who get large numbers of sacks aren't playing off teammates/coverage sacks also having large hands in it. I'd also say it's odd that considering his playing time was 50-60 percent of snaps, he still had nearly 40 pressures in his rookie season and just a few behind a guy that gets all the love for DROY in Bosa. That doesn't sound like a guy lucking into things, that sounds like a rookie consistently wreaking havoc that isn't normal for most rookies to do.

I'm not even arguing he's a top pass rusher in the NFL right now, I wouldn't think most rookie pass rushers ever get to that point their first year. But if a redraft happened I'm willing to bet he goes top 5 even with all the guys that surprised people in later rounds.

Makes a lot more sense now that you say you're basing your whole argument on PFF's number grades now though...I respect some things they do but their overall player grades I've never found to be sound.

@Ozzy @Broncofan @Counselor @Danger am I crazy here?

Edited January 16, 2020 by .Buzz

[Scoundrel]

8 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

I would absolutely love a second opinion on that clip of each sack then because if all of those 80 percent of those are him "lucking into a sack" via coverages/teammates than I don't know what the hell I'm supposed to see an edge rusher do. I agree there's a couple where the QB held it too long/it was a hustle play, but even the FF on Darnold he whipped the LT and Darnold just happened to scramble to the opposite side immediately. I just find it funny that you think edges who get large numbers of sacks aren't playing off teammates/coverage sacks also having large hands in it. I'd also say it's odd that considering his playing time was 50-60 percent of snaps, he still had nearly 40 pressures in his rookie season and just a few behind a guy that gets all the love for DROY in Bosa. That doesn't sound like a guy lucking into things, that sounds like a rookie consistently wreaking havoc that isn't normal for most rookies to do.

I'm not even arguing he's a top pass rusher in the NFL right now, I wouldn't think most rookie pass rushers ever get to that point their first year. But if a redraft happened I'm willing to bet he goes top 5 even with all the guys that surprised people in later rounds.

Makes a lot more sense now that you say you're basing your whole argument on PFF's number grades now though...I respect some things they do but their overall player grades I've never found to be sound.

@Ozzy @Broncofan @Counselor @Danger am I crazy here?

I’ll watch the clip later. But from my observations he played well this year.