GDT 6 Browns vs. the Neon Pigeons, or get me to the bye week already

[buno67]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

5

12 hours ago, Mind Character said:

No, that frame is selective evidence and a distortion of what actually happened on many accounts.

1.) Freeze framing that where you have and saying "it hit him in his chest" again distorts what actually happened in real time as Callaway was in a dead sprint and the fast ball hit him on his lower thigh behind him but his attempt to reach back and pull it in brought the ball upwards (as we saw it popped up in the air). In no way shape or form did it hit him in his chest or in his hands and to suggest otherwise is just selective evidence presentation or interpretation.

2.) That sideline angle doesn't give a true accounting of the depth of field as it looks like the front of his knees and the ball are on the same plane. They were not at all that ball is far behind. All-22 Angle gives a better look at how far the ball was behind Callaway and how he not only had to reach back, stop his forward momentum but also go low.

3.) Once again, freeze framing or slow motion from TV angle doesn't paint a picture of the fastball and where it was located relative to where Callaway was positioned. 

again it was a tough catch to make, not saying it should have been the easiest but it should have been caught.

" In no way shape or form did it hit him in his chest or in his hands" DUDE what are you smoking. watching it in real life you can see it hitting his hands and chest. The ball didnt reflect up into the air because it hit of his thigh/hip.

"his attempt to reach back and pull it in brought the ball upwards" Are we watching the same clip? How did the ball go  upwards? Its because he tried to double catch it. He couldnt haul it in the first time. When he tried to reach out and try and catch it again, he hits upwards.

 

 

[Mind Character]

@buno67 

Man.... I really don't feel like clipping and editing an All-22 clip. Just do me a favor if you have time and watch that play from the endzone view on gamepass.

Without us looking at the same evidence there's really no way for me to explain how different things look from a different angle.

I doubt given how certain you seem to be regarding your opinion that the core of your opinion will change but I am telling you man that TV angle totally distorts not only the catchability of that pass but also the nature of the throw's quality. 

Depth of field, ball location, speed of route, speed of the ball all of that stuff is more clearly taken in by the senses with the endzone view. For example, TV angle makes it seem like the ball couldn't have really gone anywhere else and Baker through it right to him. Endzone angle shows a huge space out in front of Callaway with no defenders threatening to hit him etc etc.

This isn't as good and isolated/clear as the endzone coaches film but just as a dirty example that takes me 10 seconds to link watch a TV endzone view from 3:02 to 3:07. You can pause it along the way but the quality of the video isn't as good as the all-22.

At this point, I don't care to debate about a TV sideline angle. From the endzone All-22 what I said is what I think is clearly observed: the ball is low and far behind Callaway with the first point of contact act his lower thigh knee area and not his chest. Because he's scrunching down to get lower from a dead sprint his chest lower b/c his waist is ent. If you're standing still a ball behind you is just that and easier to adjust to; a ball behind you. When you're running at speed in one direction and you have to kill your momentum by having your legs go dead knees headed toward the ground and twisting your torso to get your arms back behind you the ball is what it was; behind Callaway. 

In final summary, when viewed at real time speed from the endzone view given where Callaway was, where the ball should've and easily could've been placed.. it is a tough tough catch and a lot tougher than the TV angle makes it seem. Callaway has to make that catch is paid millions of dollars to make far more spectacular catches. BUT that is a bad ball and not "sort of bad a little" (Look at the space in front of Callaway a regular off throw still has him walk catch walking in standing up). So, it's on Baker as well.

That is all.

 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Mind Character

[Thomas5737]

5 minutes ago, Mind Character said:

@buno67 

Man.... I really don't feel like clipping and editing an All-22 clip. Just do me a favor if you have time and watch that play from the endzone view on gamepass.

Without us looking at the same evidence there's really no way for me to explain how different things look from a different angle.

I doubt given how certain you seem to be regarding your opinion that the core of your opinion will change but I am telling you man that TV angle totally distorts not only the catchability of that pass but also the nature of the throw's quality. 

Depth of field, ball location, speed of route, speed of the ball all of that stuff is more clearly taken in by the senses with the endzone view. For example, TV angle makes it seem like the ball couldn't have really gone anywhere else and Baker through it right to him. Endzone angle shows a huge space out in front of Callaway with no defenders threatening to hit him etc etc.

This isn't as good and isolated/clear as the endzone coaches film but just as a dirty example that takes me 10 seconds to link watch a TV endzone view from 3:02 to 3:07. You can pause it along the way but the quality of the video isn't as good as the all-22.

At this point, I don't care to debate about a TV sideline angle. From the endzone All-22 what I said is what I think is clearly observed: the ball is low and far behind Callaway with the first point of contact act his lower thigh knee area and not his chest. Because he's scrunching down to get lower from a dead sprint his chest lower b/c his waist is ent. If you're standing still a ball behind you is just that and easier to adjust to; a ball behind you. When you're running at speed in one direction and you have to kill your momentum by having your legs go dead knees headed toward the ground and twisting your torso to get your arms back behind you the ball is what it was; behind Callaway. 

In final summary, when viewed at real time speed from the endzone view given where Callaway was, where the ball should've and easily could've been placed.. it is a tough tough catch and a lot tougher than the TV angle makes it seem. Callaway has to make that catch is paid millions of dollars to make far more spectacular catches. BUT that is a bad ball and not "sort of bad a little" (Look at the space in front of Callaway a regular off throw still has him walk catch walking in standing up). So, it's on Baker as well.

That is all.

 

Yeah Baker should have stepped up in the pocket so he could have made a more accurate pass. No clue why he didn't.

[Mind Character]

1 hour ago, Thomas5737 said:

Yeah Baker should have stepped up in the pocket so he could have made a more accurate pass. No clue why he didn't.

Indeed, that's another thing that sideline TV angle missed which is why the endzone views are king.

The ball was out already and it was going nowhere near the gaping space out in front of Callaway that even a lob could have. 13 yard throw doesn't require a QB to step up into the pocket to make that throw out. Accuracy is aided by being able to step into a throw if that's what you meant.  To that he was into it enough to get the ball where it was supposed to go.

Interesting to think what's easier.. to throw that ball to any of the margin of error spots it's supposed to go out in front or on Callaway or for Callaway to make that catch.

I'm done with it. Differing People just don't see it the same. It is what it is.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Mind Character

[buno67]

6 hours ago, Mind Character said:

Indeed, that's another thing that sideline TV angle missed which is why the endzone views are king.

The ball was out already and it was going nowhere near the gaping space out in front of Callaway that even a lob could have. 13 yard throw doesn't require a QB to step up into the pocket to make that throw out. Accuracy is aided by being able to step into a throw if that's what you meant.  To that he was into it enough to get the ball where it was supposed to go.

Interesting to think what's easier.. to throw that ball to any of the margin of error spots it's supposed to go out in front or on Callaway or for Callaway to make that catch.

I'm done with it. Differing People just don't see it the same. It is what it is.

I agree that Baker needs to make a better throw but even with the bad pass Callaway should have caught it tho. Callaway needs to step his game up and that could have been a moment to shine there. With his suspension, him showing up to camp out of shape, and now being said was running wrong routes last game. Dude is having a bad 2019 season so far

Edited October 15, 2019 by buno67

[Bonanza23]

6 hours ago, Mind Character said:

Indeed, that's another thing that sideline TV angle missed which is why the endzone views are king.

The ball was out already and it was going nowhere near the gaping space out in front of Callaway that even a lob could have. 13 yard throw doesn't require a QB to step up into the pocket to make that throw out. Accuracy is aided by being able to step into a throw if that's what you meant.  To that he was into it enough to get the ball where it was supposed to go.

Interesting to think what's easier.. to throw that ball to any of the margin of error spots it's supposed to go out in front or on Callaway or for Callaway to make that catch.

I'm done with it. Differing People just don't see it the same. It is what it is.

Awesome view!
 

Callaway still should have made that catch, which is the real argument 😉

[JDD]

12 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

Yeah Baker should have stepped up in the pocket so he could have made a more accurate pass. No clue why he didn't.

Or the fact that if baker throws it in front of callaway he will either get smoked or putting the ball into an area with 2 defenders.
 

After watching that clip the ball placement was almost perfect. You never want to run a WR into the middle of the field to be leveled. 
 

Long story short, you can’t turn the ball over and overcome mistakes. 

[Mind Character]

15 minutes ago, JDD said:

Or the fact that if baker throws it in front of callaway he will either get smoked or putting the ball into an area with 2 defenders.
 

After watching that clip the ball placement was almost perfect. You never want to run a WR into the middle of the field to be leveled. 
 

Long story short, you can’t turn the ball over and overcome mistakes. 

"almost perfect" lol ..

Nope.. not doin it..

[Thomas5737]

5 minutes ago, Mind Character said:

"almost perfect" lol ..

Nope.. not doin it..

Your expectations are too high if catchable passes equal a failing grade. No QB ever has had consistent pinpoint accuracy, too many factors involved including the throwing of an oblong ball. Toss in weather, pressure, timing, throwing lanes... it just isn't always going to be perfect. There are times when not being pinpoint will lead to failure such as a timing pass when the receiver has to immediately turn and find the ball, that ball has to be nearly perfect. If a receiver has a couple steps towards the ball he needs to adjust to the ball, if you want to be a good team, if you just want to catch the easy one you won't be in the league long.

I have no issue with Baker's accuracy this year, of course it could be better at times but that will always be the case with every QB. Baker's decision making, or throwing passes in areas he shouldn't attempt, has been his biggest failing. It isn't always 4th and goal with 2 seconds left in the game but he often plays like it is. I think he will learn to accept failing on single plays and just move to the next play but right now he is trying to make every playcall work and that isn't reasonable.

[NateDawg]

Are we stilllll talking about the Callaway play.

[Mind Character]

4 minutes ago, NateDawg said:

Are we stilllll talking about the Callaway play.

Nope.

[Mind Character]

1 hour ago, Thomas5737 said:

Your expectations are too high if catchable passes equal a failing grade. No QB ever has had consistent pinpoint accuracy, too many factors involved including the throwing of an oblong ball. Toss in weather, pressure, timing, throwing lanes... it just isn't always going to be perfect. There are times when not being pinpoint will lead to failure such as a timing pass when the receiver has to immediately turn and find the ball, that ball has to be nearly perfect. If a receiver has a couple steps towards the ball he needs to adjust to the ball, if you want to be a good team, if you just want to catch the easy one you won't be in the league long.

I have no issue with Baker's accuracy this year, of course it could be better at times but that will always be the case with every QB. Baker's decision making, or throwing passes in areas he shouldn't attempt, has been his biggest failing. It isn't always 4th and goal with 2 seconds left in the game but he often plays like it is. I think he will learn to accept failing on single plays and just move to the next play but right now he is trying to make every playcall work and that isn't reasonable.

As you know in QB scouting analysis, there is a distinction between "pinpoint accurate" and "generally accurate." 

It's a distortion of what I've said or the intentions behind what I've said if one assumes that just because I critiqued the Callaway throw as not even being "generally accurate" that I expect every ball to be pin-point or even perfect.

I'm well aware of the factors influencing ball placement. Baker imo was neither pinpoint accurate nor generally accurate on that particular throw based on all the various factors I've since explained. The differing points don't need to be belabored anymore. As agreement and disagreement points have been clearly specified by us all.

I've made the point repeatedly that the main issue with Baker this year is decision-making, pre/post-snap reading of defenses, and mechanics more so than accuracy.  But I'd disagree in with the statement that accuracy hasn't been an issue for Baker; it's just in my mind not the key or main issue(s).

Beyond just decision making issues, Baker has regressed some with what he's doing with his eyes post-snap. What Baker has been doing with his eyes has been one of the things that a couple of us discussed in the offseason as the next step for a QB.

Ken Zampese was all about eye manipulation keys as a central part of the QB progression reading process. That is, if a QB is going 1 to 2 to 3 in their progression reading that play has an independent eye key component that is graded as a coaching point for how a QB can best use his eyes to open up passing lanes and not cue the defense as to where one wants to go. Zampese also talked about reading pace as a key fundamental. Young QB immediately stare at their reads when a Tom Brady or Phillip Rivers will first look toward the manipulation key or middle field stare in Brady's case often before coming back to directly looking at a progression read.

To be fair, I don't know what Ryan Lindley coaches in this regard but something is not translating to Baker taking the proper steps and advances.

 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Mind Character

[Reginaldm9]

Isn't there a possibility that Ryan Lindley is a not good QB coach? 

[MSURacerDT55]

Well, on the bright side, at least we are fairly healthy compared to other teams....

[Thomas5737]

2 hours ago, Mind Character said:

As you know in QB scouting analysis, there is a distinction between "pinpoint accurate" and "generally accurate." 

It's a distortion of what I've said or the intentions behind what I've said if one assumes that just because I critiqued the Callaway throw as not even being "generally accurate" that I expect every ball to be pin-point or even perfect.

I'm well aware of the factors influencing ball placement. Baker imo was neither pinpoint accurate nor generally accurate on that particular throw based on all the various factors I've since explained. The differing points don't need to be belabored anymore. As agreement and disagreement points have been clearly specified by us all.

I've made the point repeatedly that the main issue with Baker this year is decision-making, pre/post-snap reading of defenses, and mechanics more so than accuracy.  But I'd disagree in with the statement that accuracy hasn't been an issue for Baker; it's just in my mind not the key or main issue(s).

Beyond just decision making issues, Baker has regressed some with what he's doing with his eyes post-snap. What Baker has been doing with his eyes has been one of the things that a couple of us discussed in the offseason as the next step for a QB.

Ken Zampese was all about eye manipulation keys as a central part of the QB progression reading process. That is, if a QB is going 1 to 2 to 3 in their progression reading that play has an independent eye key component that is graded as a coaching point for how a QB can best use his eyes to open up passing lanes and not cue the defense as to where one wants to go. Zampese also talked about reading pace as a key fundamental. Young QB immediately stare at their reads when a Tom Brady or Phillip Rivers will first look toward the manipulation key or middle field stare in Brady's case often before coming back to directly looking at a progression read.

To be fair, I don't know what Ryan Lindley coaches in this regard but something is not translating to Baker taking the proper steps and advances.

 

I guess the definition of generally accurate is really the debating point. I consider a catchable pass in which the receiver has the best chance to make the reception generally accurate. Anything above that would be pretty much pinpoint and anything less than that would either be uncatchable or take a miraculous catch or the defender has as good of a chance of making a play as the receiver (the Landry pick in the endzone).