Freddie ain’t Ready

[Bonanza23]

Yeah I know consider the source. Still bakers hand was taped and had to wear a glove which obviously had an affect on him. 
 

 

[Thomas5737]

7 minutes ago, Bonanza23 said:

Yeah I know consider the source. Still bakers hand was taped and had to wear a glove which obviously had an affect on him. 
 

 

Obviously and obviously they shot him up with pain killers. It was our season we were trying to win. We had 6 carries for 15 yards our first 2 drives in the 2nd half. The next drive the pass was working and if Harris holds on it was tied up. A sack ended the drive in a FG. The next drive was 3 and out and the last drive was panic mode and Mayfield's hand probably tightened up because his passes were bad.

Sure I wish we would have effectively ran in the 2nd half but it wasn't trending that way and passing was the only way we were able to move the ball. He is the HC and gets the blame so I get it but I don't blame him for any of it besides it not working. He didn't do anything stupid imo.

[Bonanza23]

2 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

Obviously and obviously they shot him up with pain killers. It was our season we were trying to win. We had 6 carries for 15 yards our first 2 drives in the 2nd half. The next drive the pass was working and if Harris holds on it was tied up. A sack ended the drive in a FG. The next drive was 3 and out and the last drive was panic mode and Mayfield's hand probably tightened up because his passes were bad.

Sure I wish we would have effectively ran in the 2nd half but it wasn't trending that way and passing was the only way we were able to move the ball. He is the HC and gets the blame so I get it but I don't blame him for any of it besides it not working. He didn't do anything stupid imo.

Yeah trust me as an at home observer I did not have an issue with the play calling. Baker can handle the pressure and id much rather the ball be in his hands than anybody else on the team. 
 

All I’m saying is IF Baker’s hand was really hurt we need to protect him for the future. We’re toast this year anyway. I’d really rather not exacerbate his hand injury for the sake of a “potential” shot at the playoffs. If as the tonys are saying is accurate than Freddie really needed to default to the run game and save the unneeded pressure on his hand. 

[Thomas5737]

36 minutes ago, Bonanza23 said:

Yeah trust me as an at home observer I did not have an issue with the play calling. Baker can handle the pressure and id much rather the ball be in his hands than anybody else on the team. 
 

All I’m saying is IF Baker’s hand was really hurt we need to protect him for the future. We’re toast this year anyway. I’d really rather not exacerbate his hand injury for the sake of a “potential” shot at the playoffs. If as the tonys are saying is accurate than Freddie really needed to default to the run game and save the unneeded pressure on his hand. 

If it was a shoulder or elbow issue I'd be more inclined to agree. If it was just a deep bruise on his hand I don't think it would create issues going forward. Just has to play through the pain and there probably wasn't much early in the half but it did look like it either tightened up or the pain meds were wearing off late as he failed in his chance to tie it up.

He certainly needs to work on his accuracy on the crossing routes, it has been hit or miss this year. A lot have been behind receivers. All other throws seem pretty accurate. It may all come back to feeling comfortable throwing from in the pocket, it hasn't been a safe place this year.

[brownie man]

We should’ve run the ball in the second half 

Nick Chubb and Kareem Hunt

you need to run the ball im tired of excuses on why we shouldn’t run the ball

[Mind Character]

I see a lot of people saying stuff like, "... if Freddie goes 7-9 he shouldn't get another year, but if he goes 8-8 he deserves another year ... we haven't been 8-8 in forever and it would be crazy to fire a coach that goes .500 in his first year..."

That line of logic doesn't make much sense nor does the obsession with a .500 Win-Loss Record being an indicator that should justify whether Freddie should keep his job or not. The record is much like a box-score stat in that 8-8 is not necessarily 8-8 just as 2 QB Interceptions aren't exactly as the same as a different instance of 2 QB interceptions. As always the context and detail regarding how the team performed/looked in particular games is what truly matters. In fact, there are plenty of scenarios where a 6-10 or 7-9 record would be more indicative of future success and reasons to keep Freddie than a 8-8 scenario.

12 games in... the question of "Should we bring back Freddie?" should be more about whether or not Freddie is believed to be able to effectively coach and coordinate this team to sustained winning and all that entails. It shouldn't have anything to do with comparing our record to past incompetent records during a historic losing run or whether or not we feel like "the next guy will probably worse." 

12 games in... It's interesting to look at this season week by week and think about how the team and coaches were able or not able to effect positive change:

• We Don't Belong Games (5): Titans, 49ers, Broncos, Steelers II., Jets
• Mostly a Mess Games (1): Rams 
• Critical Fatal Flaws; Competence in Question Games (3): Patriots (after bye week crazy penalties; good offensive game plan), Seahawks (Situational play-calling, redzone, and critical situation issues/errors)
• Meh Games (1): Steelers I. (1-score game all the way with offense sputtering out despite forcing 4 turnovers; defense played well)
• Good; Looked like a Competent and Potentially Consistently Dominant Team (2): Ravens and Dolphins

1	Sun, 9/8	vsTEN	L43-13	0-1	Mayfield 285	Chubb 75	Beckham Jr. 71
2	Mon, 9/16	@NYJ	W23-3	1-1	Mayfield 325	Chubb 62	Beckham Jr. 161
3	Sun, 9/22	vsLAR	L20-13	1-2	Mayfield 195	Chubb 96	Landry 62
4	Sun, 9/29	@BAL	W40-25	2-2	Mayfield 342	Chubb 165	Landry 167
5	Mon, 10/7	@SF	L31-3	2-3	Mayfield 100	Chubb 87	Landry 75
6	Sun, 10/13	vsSEA	L32-28	2-4	Mayfield 249	Chubb 122	Beckham Jr. 101
7	BYE WEEK
8	Sun, 10/27	@NE	L27-13	2-5	Mayfield 194	Chubb 131	Landry 65
9	Sun, 11/3	@DEN	L24-19	2-6	Mayfield 273	Chubb 65	Beckham Jr. 87
10	Sun, 11/10	vsBUF	W19-16	3-6	Mayfield 238	Chubb 116	Landry 97
11	Thu, 11/14	vsPIT	W21-7	4-6	Mayfield 193	Chubb 92	Beckham Jr. 60
12	Sun, 11/24	vsMIA	W41-24	5-6	Mayfield 327	Chubb 106	Landry 148
13	Sun, 12/1	@PIT	L20-13	5-7	Mayfield 196	Chubb 58	Landry 76

 

... It's just hard to see it. It just really is. I don't care about win-loss record per se. The way we've consistently looked really detailing out how games have gone in their entirety it's so difficult and hard to see how Freddie Kitchens is going to be able to consistently effect positive change with this team and future teams in ways that lead to high level play, high level competitive execution, and sustained winning. 

Anyone blaming things all on Freddie isn't a person to be taken seriously. That said, those sitting here with clear vision on Freddie hugged up with Baker after winning the division or winning a playoff game are imo holding onto wishful feel-good fantasies that won't come to fruition for a lot of the multitude of things we've all observed this season. It's ultimately why I think firing Freddie makes more sense than not doing so.

The way the players talk about our program and Freddie isn't in the manner in which players speak of next level coaches and leaders.. the one's that seek and keep teams at that high level. Can Freddie get there? 3 to 5 years from now does he have the program/culture building prowess to take us to where we want to go? I just don't see it... I just don't see it at all.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Mind Character

[NateDawg]

27 minutes ago, Mind Character said:

I see a lot of people saying stuff like, "... if Freddie goes 7-9 he should get another year, but if he goes 8-8 he deserves another year ... we haven't been 8-8 in forever and it would be crazy to fire a coach that goes .500 in his first year..."

That line of logic doesn't make much sense nor does the obsession with a .500 Win-Loss Record being an indicator that should justify whether Freddie should keep his job or not. The record is much like a box-score stat in that 8-8 is not necessarily 8-8 just as 2 QB Interceptions aren't the same as 2 QB interceptions. As always the context and detail regarding how the team performed/looked in particular games is what truly matters. In fact, there are plenty of scenarios where a 6-10 or 7-9 record would be more indicative of future success and reasons to keep Freddie then a 8-8 scenario.

12 games in the question of "Should we bring back Freddie?" should be more about whether or not Freddie is believed to be able to effectively coach and coordinate this team to sustained winning and all that entails. It shouldn't have anything to do with comparing our record to past incompetent records during a historic losing run or whether or not we feel like "the next guy will probably worse." 

12 games in... It's interesting to look at this season week by week and think about how the team and coaches were able or not able to effect positive change:

• We Don't Belong Games (5): Titans, Jets, 49ers, Broncos, Steelers II.
• Mostly a Mess Games (1): Rams 
• Critical Fatal Flaws; Competence in Question Games (3): Patriots (after bye week crazy penalties; good offensive game plan), Seahawks (Situational play-calling, redzone, and critical situation issues/errors)
• Meh Games (1): Steelers I. (1-score game all the way with offense sputtering out despite forcing 4 turnovers; defense played well)
• Good; Looked like a Competent Team (2): Ravens and Dolphins

1	Sun, 9/8	vsTEN	L43-13	0-1	Mayfield 285	Chubb 75	Beckham Jr. 71
2	Mon, 9/16	@NYJ	W23-3	1-1	Mayfield 325	Chubb 62	Beckham Jr. 161
3	Sun, 9/22	vsLAR	L20-13	1-2	Mayfield 195	Chubb 96	Landry 62
4	Sun, 9/29	@BAL	W40-25	2-2	Mayfield 342	Chubb 165	Landry 167
5	Mon, 10/7	@SF	L31-3	2-3	Mayfield 100	Chubb 87	Landry 75
6	Sun, 10/13	vsSEA	L32-28	2-4	Mayfield 249	Chubb 122	Beckham Jr. 101
7	BYE WEEK
8	Sun, 10/27	@NE	L27-13	2-5	Mayfield 194	Chubb 131	Landry 65
9	Sun, 11/3	@DEN	L24-19	2-6	Mayfield 273	Chubb 65	Beckham Jr. 87
10	Sun, 11/10	vsBUF	W19-16	3-6	Mayfield 238	Chubb 116	Landry 97
11	Thu, 11/14	vsPIT	W21-7	4-6	Mayfield 193	Chubb 92	Beckham Jr. 60
12	Sun, 11/24	vsMIA	W41-24	5-6	Mayfield 327	Chubb 106	Landry 148
13	Sun, 12/1	@PIT	L20-13	5-7	Mayfield 196	Chubb 58	Landry 76

 

... It's just hard to see it. It just really is. I don't care about win-loss record per se. The way we've consistently looked really detailing out how games have gone in their entirety it's so difficult and hard to see how Freddie Kitchens is going to be able to consistently effect positive change with this team and future teams in ways that lead to high level play, high level competitive execution, and sustained winning. 

Anyone blaming things all on Freddie isn't a person to be taken seriously. That said, those sitting here with clear vision on Freddie hugged up with Baker after winning the division or winning a playoff game are imo holding onto wishful feel-good fantasies that won't come to fruition for a lot of the multitude of things we've all observed this season.

The way the players talk about our program and Freddie isn't in the manner in which players speak of next level coaches and leaders.. the one's that keep teams at that high level. Can Freddie get there? 3 to 5 years from now does he have the program/culture building prowess to take us to where we want to go?  

Good post. Much better than the “derp fire Freddie derp derp” nonsense that’s commonplace right now. 

With that said I still have a hard time seeing the plug get pulled after one year, as I don’t think it would reflect well on Dorsey. I think more likely would be an overhaul around Kitchens to try and make it work.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

3 hours ago, NateDawg said:

Good post. Much better than the “derp fire Freddie derp derp” nonsense that’s commonplace right now. 

With that said I still have a hard time seeing the plug get pulled after one year, as I don’t think it would reflect well on Dorsey. I think more likely would be an overhaul around Kitchens to try and make it work.

I don’t even think an overhaul is necessary.

I think you hand the offense to someone else and let them focus on that and Freddie focus on being the HC.  Stop making things harder than they need to be.

From there add a couple tackles and continue to build the roster.

[MSURacerDT55]

6 hours ago, brownie man said:

We should’ve run the ball in the second half 

Nick Chubb and Kareem Hunt

you need to run the ball im tired of excuses on why we shouldn’t run the ball

I think the problem is I don't think we have the guys up front to be able to run the ball like that, the only earth mover we have up front with consistency is Bitonio and Robinson because of his size, everyone else look not so physical zone blockers. Plus there is something to be said about running and being predictable as well, I saw several times during the game when Pittsburgh did multiple run blitzes in anticipation of what was coming. I totally get the idea of people wanting to just run the ball, but Its not as easy as people make it seem

[Bonanza23]

27 minutes ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

I think the problem is I don't think we have the guys up front to be able to run the ball like that, the only earth mover we have up front with consistency is Bitonio and Robinson because of his size, everyone else look not so physical zone blockers. Plus there is something to be said about running and being predictable as well, I saw several times during the game when Pittsburgh did multiple run blitzes in anticipation of what was coming. I totally get the idea of people wanting to just run the ball, but Its not as easy as people make it seem

This.com

[matt27j]

Unless the team quits on him it would be a huge mistake to fire kitchens. He's letting this team find themselves and hold each other accountable instead of being a authority figure like Hue. 

When this team is aggressive they look great. When they let one or two plays bring their energy down they've had lulls. But theyve done a better job recovering from those periods. 

When the players accept that they ARE more talented, that this offense cant be stopped, and that they dont HAVE to be perfect, they will rebound from the bad plays on the next series vs the next quarter. 

Mentally they spend a lot of time living in the past. The cbs start getting more flags. The offense plays scared so that they dont turn it over and give away even more momentum.

This isn't Kitchens team, its Baker's. Thats why Kitch is the HC. That's why Kitch really doesnt seem phased by all this fire freddie talk or the team having its low points. Because it's all in Baker's hands and the evidence is him putting the biggest game in Baker's control.

So if you all want to blame someone, blame Baker. Who will though when he's continued to show that he is young and learning?

That's the real struggle here. Baker getting to the point where he feels comfortable in having complete control of the team. Despite all the big names. 

Chubb shoulda chipped Hargrave, te's not chipping on 3rd downs instead going into flat while Baker runs for life. Hunt doing the same at times. These guys are out there trying to make names for themselves when they do that because of all the competition for touches.

While 10 year vet Baker should chew them out, 2nd year Baker who still makes his own mistakes can't do that without worrying that the locker room will turn against him. He's got to continue to prove that he is working to master the game and help everyone look good.

As in most of my posts this season, this all takes patience. The worst crime would be for the fans to ruin yet another cycle of gm hc qb at a time when you have top players at wr de and a lot of promise in Baker. 

Its been a long 20 years, dont ruin it by repeating the same old mistakes and chants. If the team doesnt play well at home vs the Bengals i can almost guarantee you'll start hearing them. Idiocracy.

 

[brownie man]

Freddie sucks man

Baker is in his second year 

nothing should be on him this early in his career

Freddie is supposed to be the adult and this team damn sure isn’t playing like adults 

[big poppa pump]

5 hours ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

I think the problem is I don't think we have the guys up front to be able to run the ball like that, the only earth mover we have up front with consistency is Bitonio and Robinson because of his size, everyone else look not so physical zone blockers. Plus there is something to be said about running and being predictable as well, I saw several times during the game when Pittsburgh did multiple run blitzes in anticipation of what was coming. I totally get the idea of people wanting to just run the ball, but Its not as easy as people make it seem

I mean I get this, but if we don't have the guys up front to block a run, how are they able to block in pass pro?  They actually look much worse in pass protection than in the run game.  If they had some identity as a team that is going to run the ball consistently, then the play action, quick passes might work.  No one is saying to run it on 1st, 2nd, get into a 3rd and long, and predictably pass.  It doesn't have to be Marty ball.  However, the lack of running the football is making things much worse for Baker's health.  Also, when Baker is reading blitz at the line of scrimmage, he should be able to audible out to a pass play.  (if they let him)

[Rod Johnson]

8 hours ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

I think the problem is I don't think we have the guys up front to be able to run the ball like that, the only earth mover we have up front with consistency is Bitonio and Robinson because of his size, everyone else look not so physical zone blockers. Plus there is something to be said about running and being predictable as well, I saw several times during the game when Pittsburgh did multiple run blitzes in anticipation of what was coming. I totally get the idea of people wanting to just run the ball, but Its not as easy as people make it seem

I would agree with you, but we didn't have the guys to pass block for what we were trying to do in the 2nd half through the air either.  So both are exercises in futility.  Their defensive front vs our line was such a gigantic mismatch that it cost us the game.

My only argument is that had we run the ball we would have had about the same success we had throwing.  Down 20-13 at the end of the game Baker would have been less rattled if he not been getting destroyed the entire 2nd half, and maybe steps up and gets the job done on the final couple of drives.

That still seems unlikely, but it was painful to watch our franchise guy get thrown to the wolves and then be asked to put his team on his back to win.

[MWil23]

17 hours ago, brownie man said:

Freddie sucks man

He's underwhelmed so far.

17 hours ago, brownie man said:

Baker is in his second year 

nothing should be on him this early in his career

That's asinine. He is a paid professional and #1 overall pick in the draft who has regressed. Expectations are high and he owns the blame for completely crapping the bed the first 6 games of the season. He was out of shape/chunky after an extended honeymoon, he can't read a defense yet, and has sloppy footwork/pocket presence. He's shown improvement the last 4-5 games before Pittsburgh this past week, but I don't want to hear it. 

When 2nd year QB's like Mahomes and Lamar Jackson are MVP/MVP candidates and have led their team to Super Bowl contention, Baker has ZERO EXCUSES for his abysmal play the first half of the season. This isn't 2007 anymore where we should just automatically treat every rookie/2nd year QB with kid gloves.

Fact: Baker was the #1 overall player/pick in the draft. He's not an underdog anymore. It's time for him to play like it. Right now, Lamar Jackson is everything we expect/hope Baker should be. 10-2, #1 overall team in the NFL, MVP candidate...in his 2nd year, showing tremendous strides from his rookie year to now.