Packers 2020 WR Corps

[vegas492]

16 hours ago, HighCalebR said:

FWIW, Lazard is statistically great in the 1v1 area.

Pretty big catch radius.  High points well.  Uses his body well.  Appears to know his assignment and he has the trust of #12.

But, he's not quick, nor is he overly fast.  He doesn't separate fast.  

I've got no issues with Lazard, but GB could really use a guy that can win quickly.  Outside of 'Vante, I'm not sure that is on the roster right now.

I honestly feel like flipping Jones out wide is a good way to get that quick burst out there.  Especially since we have one capable guy behind Jones (Williams), and a rookie that sure looks like he has the tools to be a quality running back.  Let's get Jones in space more often, I guess, is my point.

[vegas492]

16 hours ago, craig said:

Agree, Adams is going to be doubled or bracketed routinely.  

Not sure how the 1:1's will go.  I know Lazard had good stats there, last year, but I'm not sure whether that will continue, or if he'll continue to get that.  In the old days, I think Rodgers would routinely go to whomever was single-covered.  At least he did with his main guys (Jennings, Jordy...). 

Would be nice if Lazard or MVS or EQ emerged as guys where, if Rodgers could recognize single, that such guy could immediately become a primary target option, and the guy could win enough of those 1-on-1's to make teams pay.  With MVS being the only fast guy, though, not sure we'll run open on many 1-on-1's.  

 

On paper, ESB has some quickness and decent long end speed.  Along with that body.  He's the "one" that I think has the most potential to help us out in the WR room.

MVS is what he is.  (and it isn't bad at all)  Kumerow is what he is (which is kindda bad...apologies to the board), Begelton is an unknown, but ESB has size, speed and some quickness.  

I hate going into a year (if there is one) banking on ESB to develop, but he does have the athletic profile.

[MrBobGray]

1 hour ago, vegas492 said:

Pretty big catch radius.  High points well.  Uses his body well.  Appears to know his assignment and he has the trust of #12.

But, he's not quick, nor is he overly fast.  He doesn't separate fast.  

I've got no issues with Lazard, but GB could really use a guy that can win quickly.  Outside of 'Vante, I'm not sure that is on the roster right now.

I honestly feel like flipping Jones out wide is a good way to get that quick burst out there.  Especially since we have one capable guy behind Jones (Williams), and a rookie that sure looks like he has the tools to be a quality running back.  Let's get Jones in space more often, I guess, is my point.

I'm not actually worried with guys that can win quickly in this offense.  Big chunk of the Shanahan offensive plan is scheming your receivers open as a natural result of the run game due to all the pre-snap motion and narrow sets/bunches/etc.  If it's clicking, can freeze a lot of first steps of those mid-level defenders and give you freebies on the crossers against man/pretty much anything short enough with these receivers against zone.  You don't need monster short area quickness when you're 6'5", 220 running a slant against a guy in zone who froze on the threat of the jet sweep.  That plus a guy like Adams who can bail you out just by smoking his 1v1 match-up and some good receiving backs should be more than enough on quick stuff when you need it.

As far as Lazard, while he may not be fast in an absolute sense, he absolutely is fast at scale.  He ran nearly the same 40 as Mike Evans at more or less the exact same size (4.53 at 6'5", 231 for Evans, 4.55 at 6'5", 227 for Lazard); Lazard clearly isn't in Evans tier as far as talent, but his ability to score on vertical routes can't be discounted here.  He's legitimately a bully on the skinny post, and he uses it to set up a lot of short stuff on corners who are afraid to get bodied out downfield.  The more Lazard I watch, the more I'm convinced he's an actual player; this is a guy that could easily hit 1k this year with a QB like Aaron that puts so much value on trust in a guy.

[vegas492]

1 hour ago, MrBobGray said:

I'm not actually worried with guys that can win quickly in this offense.  Big chunk of the Shanahan offensive plan is scheming your receivers open as a natural result of the run game due to all the pre-snap motion and narrow sets/bunches/etc.  If it's clicking, can freeze a lot of first steps of those mid-level defenders and give you freebies on the crossers against man/pretty much anything short enough with these receivers against zone.  You don't need monster short area quickness when you're 6'5", 220 running a slant against a guy in zone who froze on the threat of the jet sweep.  That plus a guy like Adams who can bail you out just by smoking his 1v1 match-up and some good receiving backs should be more than enough on quick stuff when you need it.

As far as Lazard, while he may not be fast in an absolute sense, he absolutely is fast at scale.  He ran nearly the same 40 as Mike Evans at more or less the exact same size (4.53 at 6'5", 231 for Evans, 4.55 at 6'5", 227 for Lazard); Lazard clearly isn't in Evans tier as far as talent, but his ability to score on vertical routes can't be discounted here.  He's legitimately a bully on the skinny post, and he uses it to set up a lot of short stuff on corners who are afraid to get bodied out downfield.  The more Lazard I watch, the more I'm convinced he's an actual player; this is a guy that could easily hit 1k this year with a QB like Aaron that puts so much value on trust in a guy.

I get what you are saying, and I'm not going to say you are wrong.  At all.  I too feel like Lazard can produce.

What I will say, is that I still feel that winning early as a WR would add an extra dimension to our offense.  And Lazard is not a win fast kind of player.  

Shallow crossers and slants?  I'll scoff a little at that, not because Lazard can't run them, but because we have a QB who is terrified of throwing shallow in the middle of the field.  And his hesitation will allow a corner to easily make up the lost ground due to a run action.

I see extreme value in having someone win quick outside, away from Adams.  I think we are going to see a lot of single high safety, and that safety will probably have an eye and a foot nearest Adams.  That's why I hope that we split Jones out a little more and get him in space more.

And thank you for posting about Evans.  I had no idea they were so comparable physically.  I didn't see Lazard's 3 cone from the combine, but his pro day was 7.11.  Evans was 7.08 at the combine.  

Regarding their 40's...think they were almost identical, but I think that Evans had a 4.45 or something like on a second or third run.  And I seem to recall he was under an extreme microscope at the Combine and that people thought he ran funny and left some time on the track.  I don't think Lazard was under that good of a microscope.  Either way, Lazard has playable speed, especially for his size.  

[craig]

4 hours ago, vegas492 said:

On paper, ESB has some quickness and decent long end speed.  Along with that body.  He's the "one" that I think has the most potential to help us out in the WR room.

MVS is what he is.  (and it isn't bad at all)  Kumerow is what he is (which is kindda bad...apologies to the board), Begelton is an unknown, but ESB has size, speed and some quickness.  

I hate going into a year (if there is one) banking on ESB to develop, but he does have the athletic profile.

I know the board has lots of hopes for ESB, and the concept that he's got "some quickness".  I'm absolutely no scout, but I admit I didn't really observe that quickness in his rookie year.  Hands?  Yes. 

But for quickness I thought he looked pretty non-quick.  That his straight-line speed was fine for a guy... his size; but nothing that any corner or safety can't easily run with, or usually catch up on.  And I don't recall actually much change-of-direction quickness.  My perception (again, I KNOW I'm no sharp scout...) was that he seemed relatively easy to mirror.  

HOpe I missed something, and that he'll pop out with something quite good in terms of quickness and the capacity to beat guys with more than just size.  

[Beast]

I really feel like what the Packers are looking for in WRs and what fans are looking for in WRs are a bit different.

As Packers want big physical versatile guys, that can be used as blockers or receivers.

While fans strictly looking for something different of strictly receiving. Like a lot more quickness.

Also a lot more emphasis will be put on that large slot role, weather it's a TE or ESB, as that role always seems like a star in this system. Scheming them open and asking Adams to win his matchups even if not schemed open. Plus putting an emphasis on the running game.

So really in this scheme (which has been in the Super Bowl in 4 of the last 5 years Broncos, Falcons, Rams, 49ers, or 40% of the teams that made the Superbowl) in the last 5 years.

In this scheme, that second outside WR is really a luxury item, and possibly the least emphasize on the offense (assuming others stay healthy).

[VonKarman]

I agree. I believe that improving in TE1 is much more important than doing it in WR2-3. How Sternberger performs is going to be key for this offense.

[rbens06]

27 minutes ago, Beast said:

I really feel like what the Packers are looking for in WRs and what fans are looking for in WRs are a bit different.

As Packers want big physical versatile guys, that can be used as blockers or receivers.

While fans strictly looking for something different of strictly receiving. Like a lot more quickness.

Also a lot more emphasis will be put on that large slot role, weather it's a TE or ESB, as that role always seems like a star in this system. Scheming them open and asking Adams to win his matchups even if not schemed open. Plus putting an emphasis on the running game.

So really in this scheme (which has been in the Super Bowl in 4 of the last 5 years Broncos, Falcons, Rams, 49ers, or 40% of the teams that made the Superbowl) in the last 5 years.

In this scheme, that second outside WR is really a luxury item, and possibly the least emphasize on the offense (assuming others stay healthy).

I think this is the most important thing to remember. Even look at the WR Gute has drafted, they are all taller WR, not necessarily big framed, but taller WR; that Cobb type physique has not been a trend with Gute, but too he really hasn't brought in a ton of new blood to WR so hard to say he doesnt like that type of WR too. 

I would be for a guy like Samuel or Ross if available, even a guy like Austin as it is a different type of WR, but that does not appear to be the direction of the WR core. I can't fault them that if that style doesnt fit the scheme then why go for it, but just a different type of guy would create some variance. 

[MrBobGray]

2 hours ago, vegas492 said:

I get what you are saying, and I'm not going to say you are wrong.  At all.  I too feel like Lazard can produce.

What I will say, is that I still feel that winning early as a WR would add an extra dimension to our offense.  And Lazard is not a win fast kind of player.  

Shallow crossers and slants?  I'll scoff a little at that, not because Lazard can't run them, but because we have a QB who is terrified of throwing shallow in the middle of the field.  And his hesitation will allow a corner to easily make up the lost ground due to a run action.

I see extreme value in having someone win quick outside, away from Adams.  I think we are going to see a lot of single high safety, and that safety will probably have an eye and a foot nearest Adams.  That's why I hope that we split Jones out a little more and get him in space more.

And thank you for posting about Evans.  I had no idea they were so comparable physically.  I didn't see Lazard's 3 cone from the combine, but his pro day was 7.11.  Evans was 7.08 at the combine.  

Regarding their 40's...think they were almost identical, but I think that Evans had a 4.45 or something like on a second or third run.  And I seem to recall he was under an extreme microscope at the Combine and that people thought he ran funny and left some time on the track.  I don't think Lazard was under that good of a microscope.  Either way, Lazard has playable speed, especially for his size.  

Yeah, I hate that I agree with this, but you're not wrong.  If Rodgers can't find some improvement in these areas in 2020 though, the offense is probably capped at about what it was last year regardless of talent around him.  Offensive success starts with the QB actually letting go of the ball, so here's hoping.

The problem I have with having a couple of receivers that win quick outside is that unless you're dropping big capital on them, you're almost certain to get someone who struggles to block in the run game.  So much of this scheme is stressing the edges, in both the run and the pass game, but if you want to regularly run outside the numbers you need a fair number of plus blockers at the receiver position.  The team already had some issues there with Tae, who's not even a poor blocker, but just can't walk someone back the way Lazard/Kumerow/ESB can.  If you start playing two of those guys, either you stop running outside (in which case your personnel is giving away your play call) or you just accept negative/no gain runs outside a lot more often.  

Now, if your goal is to punish single high/overly aggressive man coverage, I really feel MVS is your guy even in 2020.  Hands down the best player you're likely to even have a chance at in terms of punishing the defense by winning hard and fast outside; his TD against the Rams in 2018 where he just incinerated poor Troy Hill right off the line is basically the prototype of that play.  He's also pretty solid in general on curls and comeback routes, so if the corner is really sitting over the top, can snag a free 5-10 yards if he and Aaron can get their timing down on that play.

I'm not saying I'd be against a different body type at WR, just that I think in the end given what's out there and already on the roster, I'm not sure this is the year for it. 

Also yeah, I'd agree Evans probably plays faster than what he timed at coming out.  Really it's not even about speed with him; he's just so good at finding the ball downfield regardless of placement and being able to adjust to it.  Really rare level of that talent for a 6'5", 230 lb guy, the speed is just icing on the cake.  Lazard is no slouch there himself though, will be interesting to see if he can consistently make the kind of plays he showed the ability to make in 2019.

 

[Mazrimiv]

As long as MLF is coach, GB fans should probably get used to not having much flash at the WR position.  I foresee multiple Funchess-like additions in FA over the next few years, with little draft capital invested at the position.  The roster has plenty of holes, and WR doesn't seem a position of high value in this offense.

[Chili]

3 hours ago, Beast said:

I really feel like what the Packers are looking for in WRs and what fans are looking for in WRs are a bit different.

As Packers want big physical versatile guys, that can be used as blockers or receivers.

While fans strictly looking for something different of strictly receiving. Like a lot more quickness.

Also a lot more emphasis will be put on that large slot role, weather it's a TE or ESB, as that role always seems like a star in this system. Scheming them open and asking Adams to win his matchups even if not schemed open. Plus putting an emphasis on the running game.

So really in this scheme (which has been in the Super Bowl in 4 of the last 5 years Broncos, Falcons, Rams, 49ers, or 40% of the teams that made the Superbowl) in the last 5 years.

In this scheme, that second outside WR is really a luxury item, and possibly the least emphasize on the offense (assuming others stay healthy).

Completely agree. 

I'm not sure why Gute is obsessed with a particular type of WR. It started near the end of McCarthy's tenure and it continued with LaFleur.

All you have to do is look at who the receivers Rodgers had success with over his career and nearly all are smaller, shiftier types such as Driver, Jennings, Jones, Cobb and Adams. It makes sense because receivers need to adjust quickly to Rodgers peeling out of the pocket. Nelson was an outlier not the norm and yet Gute is trying to find more Nelson types.

Bigger receivers can't quite adjust as easily and yet Gute is trying to pair bigger receivers with Rodgers. I will never understand his thinking here.

It's strange, he spent years under TT and seeing how successful he was with wide receivers, it's surprising he never sought to continue that particular methodology. 

[MacReady]

I don’t like limiting ANY position to a certain type.  That’s how you end up reaching and also flat out missing on talent.  It’s a bad habit, it’s a dumb habit.  Exception is short corners, but even then... Kinda stupid.

[Toddfather]

https://www.packers.com/news/packers-sign-wr-malik-turner

Signed Turner, which I assume most thought was happening... Any thoughts? 

[Chili]

Malik Taylor was born in December 1995 in Michigan.

Malik Turner was born a month later in January 1996 in Illinois

Taylor grew to be 6'1" and  211 lbs

Turner grew to be 6'2 and 202 lbs

Both became WRs

Both became Packers

The legend of the Malik is born.

Edited August 12, 2020 by Chili

[Chili]

37 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

I don’t like limiting ANY position to a certain type.  That’s how you end up reaching and also flat out missing on talent.  It’s a bad habit, it’s a dumb habit.  Exception is short corners, but even then... Kinda stupid.

Completely agree. 

However certain systems benefits certain body types more so than others. Such an example is Pettine defence - he need pass rushers who at tall, heavy and long so naturally we look to bring in that body type. Another example is Patriots offence with TB, there was a strong lean towards small slot type receivers. Welker, Amendola, Edelman.