2020 ROT

[drd23]

12 hours ago, wackywabbit said:

Agnostic would mean the scheme doesn't affect him. The question is not whether scheme or supporting cast affects his output at all. It's whether it does for Lamar more so than other QBs. He would not have just had an MVP season on any team. But, I'm still pretty sure he would have shown to be better than average QB just about anywhere.

We're probably not that far off from each other in terms of how we see things then.

I think there's probably a couple of other teams where he could have put up MVP type numbers, a plurality of teams where he'd be better than average, but that there'd be at least a handful of teams where his performance would have him in the same sort of "what is he really?" camp that guys like Josh Allen and Darnold are in.  Something would have to have gone really wrong to have him be seen in a similar light to a guy like Trubisky

[DreamKid]

 

[DreamKid]

Does anyone agree that Gus Edwards is "So disrespected by his own team"...?(Embedded Tweet below)

His chemistry with Lamar/Roman's scheme was noted exceptionally early and he was put on the fast track because of it. There was no grand evidence for fans that he should've been receiving carries at the start of the 2018 season. It's easily arguable that Mark Thompson and De'Lance Turner were the more impressive backs during that preseason run. Gus is one of the purest examples of the coaches rewarding a player for their performances during practices that we have.  

Was signing Mark Ingram to a stellar deal, "Disrespecting" Gus Edwards? How about drafting Justice Hill and JK Dobbins? HBs have a what..3 year average shelf life? And you rarely (if ever) want to give a HB that big 2nd Contract.... Signing an impact veteran and drafting potential playmakers for a position with exceptional turnover isn't disrespect. Neither is trying to diversify the talent pool of said position room.

The Ravens aren't going to resign Gus Edwards. He's going to get bigger money offers from teams looking to secure the services of who they think is a sleeper shot at an impact HB1. Mark Ingram is old. - This is just how things work, especially for running backs. You constantly reload the position with fresh blood.

Gus is a hyper efficient and talented back that's a great scheme fit for us. And he's been given opportunities accordingly. FF heads like to romanticize background players and constantly cast them in these imagined stories of disrespect/injustice.  

We fielded a historic offense in 2019, and when I look at the very few areas/players where I think we could've left some points on the table or extracted more out of someone- Gus Edwards really doesn't top the list.

Besides, it's also not even a given that Dobbins or Hill surpasses Edwards on the depth chart for 2020. Hill certainly didn't in 2019. Yet, I'm seeing a lot of this 3rd/4th string whining already. Dobbins will carry in a lot of privilege as a 2nd Round pick, but if he isn't meeting the teams standards then he will naturally be faded back. 

 

[sp6488]

The notion that he's been "disrespected" by the Ravens is insane. There wasn't a single team that thought he was worthy of a draft pick. He's then elevated to the active roster in 2018, which shows the team recognizing what he can offer (as you mention). Then he gets a good number of carries last year as the #2 RB behind a probowler.  

It's ironic because this schmuck only knows who he is because the team has put him in a position to succeed as a former UDFA.

Edited June 16, 2020 by sp6488

[Danand]

Gus is not disrespected, but I don't agree with picking Dobbins/a runningback high and thus forcing a relegation of Gus. He has done more than enough to prove, that he deserves either the current role he has in our offense or an even bigger one. Is he capitalizing off of Lamar and the focus he gets? Yes, but so does Ingram, and Gus produce very well in the limited role he has and that is worth something.

Now, in my opinion, if Gus is smart (and take less money to stay in the league longer) and we are smart, he is the one we extend and we keep his snaps limited so we have a hammer that fit our system for several years and we keep his body and legs fresh.

 

[sp6488]

14 minutes ago, Danand said:

Gus is not disrespected, but I don't agree with picking Dobbins/a runningback high and thus forcing a relegation of Gus. He has done more than enough to prove, that he deserves either the current role he has in our offense or an even bigger one. Is he capitalizing off of Lamar and the focus he gets? Yes, but so does Ingram, and Gus produce very well in the limited role he has and that is worth something.

Now, in my opinion, if Gus is smart (and take less money to stay in the league longer) and we are smart, he is the one we extend and we keep his snaps limited so we have a hammer that fit our system for several years and we keep his body and legs fresh.

 

I'm not sure Gus necessarily gets relegated this year as a result of Dobbins getting picked. One could actually argue that having Dobbins in tow for 2021 - 2023 actually strengthens the argument to run Gus a TON in 2020 to put mileage on a guy who you very well might lose next offseason via RFA. Then let Dobbins grow into his role, acclimate to blocking responsibilities in the pro game, etc. and preserve Ingram for year-three in Baltimore. Not saying that's the way it shakes out, but I don't necessarily agree with the chain of logic that suggests Edwards is somehow on the outside looking in now. 

I think we actually carry 4 RBs into the season, particularly with Proche, Duvernay, and Hill being able to handle KR/PR duties collectively (thus no need to roster a KR/PR specialist).

[DreamKid]

9 minutes ago, Danand said:

Now, in my opinion, if Gus is smart (and take less money to stay in the league longer) and we are smart, he is the one we extend and we keep his snaps limited so we have a hammer that fit our system for several years and we keep his body and legs fresh.

For UDFAs that play HB, chasing the guaranteed money is about as smart as it gets. 

12 minutes ago, Danand said:

but I don't agree with picking Dobbins/a runningback high and thus forcing a relegation of Gus.

I don't agree with/like the Dobbins pick either, but it's more of a move to replace Ingram when the wheels inevitably fall off then it is a move to specifically take carries away from Edwards. And as I mentioned earlier, there's no guarantee he does supplant Gus in the pecking order at HB. Dobbins imo lacks the drive power and lower body strength to step into a short yardage role right away in the NFL. And with the frequency at which we rush on 1st,2nd,3rd, & 4th and short- I don't see JK beating out Edwards so easily, at least in that regard. We'll see though, certainly one of the more intriguing story lines for the 2020 season. 

[Boodgyman5220]

I think Dobbins is the kind of pick that consistently makes the ravens a playoff/Super Bowl contender. I don’t think that they planned on drafting a running back high, but when dobbins was there in the second, they realized what a superior value that he was and took him as a BPA. Imagine having another plus back last year when Ingram got hurt. I think we’ll see a similar split of carries for Ingram/Gus this year. Maybe slightly less for Ingram. I see a dramatic drop in carries for hill this year with those going to dobbins.

 

Ravens have to be thrilled getting three guys that were viewed at some point to all be good picks in the first round in Queen, Dobbins, and Madabuike

Edited June 16, 2020 by Boodgyman5220

[Danand]

1 hour ago, Boodgyman5220 said:

I think Dobbins is the kind of pick that consistently makes the ravens a playoff/Super Bowl contender. I don’t think that they planned on drafting a running back high, but when dobbins was there in the second, they realized what a superior value that he was and took him as a BPA. Imagine having another plus back last year when Ingram got hurt. I think we’ll see a similar split of carries for Ingram/Gus this year. Maybe slightly less for Ingram. I see a dramatic drop in carries for hill this year with those going to dobbins.

 

Ravens have to be thrilled getting three guys that were viewed at some point to all be good picks in the first round in Queen, Dobbins, and Madabuike

Dobbins might turn out to be a good player, but runningbacks are never the reason teams win super bowls. Take a look at the runningbacks on the last 20 super bowl winners and name the one that carried the team. 

Runningbacks still hold value though, you can get a long way with good runningbacks, but they are too dependent on good olines to produce. 

With regard to my earlier point about Gus taking a lesser contract with us, it was based on the idea that if he accept guaranteed but less money up front for a 2 year contract, he are more likely to be able to get a second and third contract.

I believe that is the way more runningbacks should consider rather than trying to get the big payday like we see Dalvin Cook try. Stay with the team where you are certain you have value and chase shorter but guaranteed contracts so the team have no incentitives to run you into the ground.

[berlin calling]

i feel veeery good telling all doubters of the Dobbins pick to trust this team on their RB decisions.

Gus Edwards is a product of the Ravens offense just as much as Kamar Aiken was.

I trust EDC when he says Dobbins was BPA and he believes this team to be build strong enough to have the luxury of picking a future core player in the 2nd round of the draft. 

[sp6488]

2 hours ago, Danand said:

Dobbins might turn out to be a good player, but runningbacks are never the reason teams win super bowls. Take a look at the runningbacks on the last 20 super bowl winners and name the one that carried the team. 

Runningbacks still hold value though, you can get a long way with good runningbacks, but they are too dependent on good olines to produce. 

With regard to my earlier point about Gus taking a lesser contract with us, it was based on the idea that if he accept guaranteed but less money up front for a 2 year contract, he are more likely to be able to get a second and third contract.

I believe that is the way more runningbacks should consider rather than trying to get the big payday like we see Dalvin Cook try. Stay with the team where you are certain you have value and chase shorter but guaranteed contracts so the team have no incentitives to run you into the ground.

It's funny that you say 20, because going back exactly 20 takes you to Jamal Lewis who was one of the lone bright spots on a mediocre 2000 Ravens offense that focused primarily on ball control, and he was a highly-drafted rookie at that!

Saw something similar with Mike Alstott and Warrick Dunn two years later.

[M.10.E]

 

2 hours ago, berlin calling said:

i feel veeery good telling all doubters of the Dobbins pick to trust this team on their RB decisions.

Gus Edwards is a product of the Ravens offense just as much as Kamar Aiken was.

I trust EDC when he says Dobbins was BPA and he believes this team to be build strong enough to have the luxury of picking a future core player in the 2nd round of the draft. 

Big agree. Ever since I saw him play as a freshman he jumped off the screen.

[Danand]

9 hours ago, sp6488 said:

It's funny that you say 20, because going back exactly 20 takes you to Jamal Lewis who was one of the lone bright spots on a mediocre 2000 Ravens offense that focused primarily on ball control, and he was a highly-drafted rookie at that!

Saw something similar with Mike Alstott and Warrick Dunn two years later.

It is not a coincidence, it is a point directly stolen from someone on twitter. They also acknowledged that runningbacks played a part in a teams effort to win a super bowl, Corey Dillon with the Patriots for example in Bradys first years. 

[SalvadorsDeli]

The conversation around the 'value' of RB's as it relates to the Dobbins pick feels weird to me because I look at the Dobbins pick see how the RB market has already experienced corrections. 10-15 years ago a player like Dobbins would have probably gone in the first 10 to 15 picks of the draft because RB's as a whole were overvalued. And if we had taken him there, or even used our late 1st rounder on him, I think we could probably say that he was overdrafted and that you don't need to use premium picks on a RB.

But we didn't - we got him as a 2nd rounder and thus we might actually be in a position where we extract the appropriate value from the pick. 

It may be true that it's been decades since a superstar RB carried his team to a championship, but you'd be hard pressed to find too many teams not QB'd by Peyton or Brady that won titles or even made the Super Bowl that didn't have strong running games. Running backs may matter less, but running games absolutely still do. And that's certainly obviously true of a team like ours with the way our offense operates. 

To the extent we've learned more about the RB position, I think a couple of big things have become clear:

- While individual talent matters, you don't necessarily need a bellcow - RB's committees help every member of the rotation play better football individually

- RB's are probably not worth high 1st round picks 

- RB's have short shelf lives - it's probably not advisable to give your RB a premium contract extension

Taking Dobbins doesn't invalidate any of those principles to me. In fact, it does the opposite in a lot of ways: We waited till later in the draft to take him than we probably would have in the past, he gives us a talented and cost-controlled runner for 4 years which is exactly what you want in your RB rotation, and his presence has the knock-on effect of making Ingram and Gus more effective in their carries as well by keeping everyone fresher. 

[drd23]

 

Should make the IOL position battles more interesting if Skura is good to go from the start of TC