NFLN Top 100 Players of 2020

[Soko]

4 minutes ago, VanS said:

What happened to them outside Buffalo is irrelevant.  Those teams have different o-lines, run schemes, and surrounding players.  To many variables to draw any one to one correlation.  I already made this point but I guess I need to make it again so you understand.  The only way to truly tell how much of a difference Allen makes in the run is for him to miss games and to see what happens to the Bills run game with another QB taking snaps.  The difference we see in the run game without Allen as the QB but everything else staying the same (i.e. o-line, playclling, and RBs) will tell us how much impact he makes.  Allen didn't miss significant time last year so we don't have this reference point.  This is the final time I will be making this point.  Don't expect me to keep repeating myself as you like saying the same thing over and over again.

If you’re saying we can’t tell, then how’re you going to say Allen helped Singletary? You can’t have it both ways. Based on the evidence we have, which you may or may not agree is enough but it’s all there is, Allen hasn’t done jack to help the run.

Keep throwing out whatever you don’t like, though. So much for “using all the information”.

4 minutes ago, VanS said:

I don't have the time or interest to get into some long debate with you about the Patriots running scheme over the last 20 years.  I'm simply making the point about New England that everyone knows.  The fact that the Patriots have a way of getting the best out of players during their stay with New England compared to when they play for other teams.  Its not just RBs but every position more or less.  Are there years the Patriots run scheme is weak?  Sure.  Just like they struggle some years on defense.  Or the pass game.  Or along the offensive line.  And so on.  But through the last 20 years they have been the most dominant organization in the NFL because they have been able to get more out of players while they play for New England than we see from those players when they are elsewhere.  I give Belichick and his system credit for that.

Lol. I don’t watch every game every year but I watch all of NE. Bill deserves credit for, generally, getting what’s good out of players but the fact that you’re trying to use the Pats’ “running scheme” as a base is hilarious. Won’t even ask you to elaborate because you absolutely can’t and will just shake it off as “idc to explain”. 

How can you be informative without proof? 

4 minutes ago, VanS said:

McCoy, Ivory, and Gore were all aging RBs.  I brought up Moss cause he's young and a high draft pick like Singletary.  He will be a far better comparison point in trying to determine just how good Singletary is.  I actually like Moss as a talent.  He was in my top 5 RBs for the 2020 draft.  So for my own evaluation purposes he will provide a good comparison point to Singletary.  If he outperforms Singletary next year and becomes the lead back then I will use that as confirmation that Singletary was the mediocre RB I thought he was.  If he outperfoms Moss then he will be better than I thought.  If both split the carries and neither is much better than the other then I'm either wrong about how good Moss is or how bad Singletary is.

In order for that experiment to work, there has to be a constant. You’re pretending Moss is the constant, which he isn’t. It’s possible both he and Singletary are good players, it’s possible they’re both going to be trash, and all other combos. But using Moss as a measure against Singletary assumes that Moss is a constant, which he isn’t. 

4 minutes ago, VanS said:

Once again what McCoy and Gore did outside Buffalo is irrelevant.  To many variables to consider when guys go to different teams.  Just look at Kansas City.  They are one of the most explosive offenses in NFL history.  Obviously McCoy will see more success playing there than in Buffalo whose offense lacks talent across the board.   Gore played for Miami last year and is a year older.  Its possible he might have finally fallen off that cliff last year.  Only so long a guy can play RB in the NFL.

“I use all information available”

”What they did outside Buffalo is irrelevant” 

Lol.

4 minutes ago, VanS said:

First of all, your point about Randy Moss makes no sense.  Everyone knows WR is a dependant position.  Nobody puts stock in a WR struggling with poor QB play (as was the case for Randy in Oakland when he was still in his prime) against him.  WRs are judged more on their pure talent and impact on the game when they have an adequate QB who can get them the ball.  There's a reason no WR has ever won league MVP.  They are simply not as valuable to a team's success as a QB or RB because of the dependant nature of the position.

Lol. Pick any veteran QB or RB in their final years then. Focusing on the position is totally missing the point, but I’m not going down that route because I don’t want to stray too far off the topic of Josh Allen being a passenger on the Bills playoff train.

4 minutes ago, VanS said:

With regard to Allen and the Bills, why do you think I brought up the 2001 Patriots?  At that time most thought Brady was just a game manager being carried by his defense who made clutch plays every now and then.  Nobody thought he was an elite QB on the same level as say Peyton Manning.  Just because the gap between the Bills defense and offense is massive now in comparison to the gap between Belichick and Brady now doesn't mean that was always the case for Brady and Belichick.  Early in the Patriots dynasty there was a similar gap in terms of Brady and Belichick.  Brady was not always viewed as elite.  It took years before he was even in the conversation for best QB in the NFL let alone the GOAT.

Brady’s rise to stardom doesn’t mean he was the driving force in 2001. It was the defense, Brady was an insanely clutch game manager. 

4 minutes ago, VanS said:

Actually I use every piece of information available.  Even stats.  I just don't put as much weight on it as I do the eye test.  You place a large amount if weight on stats.  I place very little.  Most of what I focus on when evaluating players comes from simply watching them.

Your eye test: Josh Allen did a good job converting firsts and giving the defense rest. 

Stats: Bills were a bottom 10 offense in TOP, 3D%, first downs. points, points per drive, etc. 

Seems to be a disconnect there. 

4 minutes ago, VanS said:

Every piece of information matters.  That doesn't mean they all get equal weight.  I believe that if you watch a player's tape closely enough you get way more information about how good they are than you would looking at stats.  The stats become superfluous in that case.  Stats are only useful if you never watch a player.  Similar to how a box score after watching the game is superfluous but if you never watch the game is informative.  

Stats seem pretty relevant if they 100% contradict what you see. 

For instance, if I said the Bills were led by an elite playmaker that did a great job converting downs, but they were in fact bad at converting downs - well my eye test must be wrong then. 

4 minutes ago, VanS said:

If you wanna celebrate one hit wonders go right ahead.  I don't care for it.  I try to identify and focus on players who are actually great.  And greatness shows itself over a sustained period of time.  One good year in a career is meaningless. 

“Greatness shows itself over a sustained period of time”

”I knew that guy was great after watching a handful of preseason snaps” 

We are laughing.

4 minutes ago, VanS said:

You can jump from season to season proclaiming players to be suddenly great or bad if you like. 

False, again showing you aren’t understanding.

A player can have a great year or play great in a single season, but not be a great player. That’s the discrepancy. Again, see Peyton Hillis. He undoubtedly had a great year in 2010, but was not a great player.

4 minutes ago, VanS said:

I try to keep my views on players consistent.  Its why I didn't change my tune on Baker Mayfield even after he had a stellar rookie season in 2018.  I continued to say that he was not worthy of being a first round pick.  A year later in 2019 he has a bad year and my take on him doesn't sound so radical.  Time will ultimately tell us how good or bad Mayfield is.  I just don't think there is much value in jumping to conclusions every year on a player.  I have a central theory which I use to evaluate players.  And I stick to those evaluations until a sufficient body of work presents itself that causes me to change my views.  One single season isn't sufficient to me when it comes to changing my view on how good or bad a player is. 

Let’s stay on topic and wrap it up, I don’t want to delve into 7 discussions about the Patriots, Baker Mayfield, and wide receivers.

I think it’s safe to say that - while opinions on their own aren’t necessarily worthless - an opinion that has zero backing doesn’t hold water. So if you’re trying to inform us as you say, do you have anything of substance to bring to the table that says Josh Allen was the leading force of that playoff run? Predictions, eye tests, that stuff is all nice but really anybody can have those and be just as right unless they have something to back it up with. Can’t be informative without any information, you know. So is there anything you can bring to enlighten someone such as myself regarding LAST YEAR’s playoff run of the Bills? Preferably something that isn’t directly contradicted by facts, like some silly comment on their drive efficiency.

[ET80]

2 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

If you’re saying we can’t tell, then how’re you going to say Allen helped Singletary? You can’t have it both ways. Based on the evidence we have, which you may or may not agree is enough but it’s all there is, Allen hasn’t done jack to help the run.

Keep throwing out whatever you don’t like, though. So much for “using all the information”.

Lol. I don’t watch every game every year but I watch all of NE. Bill deserves credit for, generally, getting what’s good out of players but the fact that you’re trying to use the Pats’ “running scheme” as a base is hilarious. Won’t even ask you to elaborate because you absolutely can’t and will just shake it off as “idc to explain”. 

How can you be informative without proof? 

In order for that experiment to work, there has to be a constant. You’re pretending Moss is the constant, which he isn’t. It’s possible both he and Singletary are good players, it’s possible they’re both going to be trash, and all other combos. But using Moss as a measure against Singletary assumes that Moss is a constant, which he isn’t. 

“I use all information available”

”What they did outside Buffalo is irrelevant” 

Lol.

Lol. Pick any veteran QB or RB in their final years then. Focusing on the position is totally missing the point, but I’m not going down that route because I don’t want to stray too far off the topic of Josh Allen being a passenger on the Bills playoff train.

Brady’s rise to stardom doesn’t mean he was the driving force in 2001. It was the defense, Brady was an insanely clutch game manager. 

Your eye test: Josh Allen did a good job converting firsts and giving the defense rest. 

Stats: Bills were a bottom 10 offense in TOP, 3D%, first downs. points, points per drive, etc. 

Seems to be a disconnect there. 

Stats seem pretty relevant if they 100% contradict what you see. 

For instance, if I said the Bills were led by an elite playmaker that did a great job converting downs, but they were in fact bad at converting downs - well my eye test must be wrong then. 

“Greatness shows itself over a sustained period of time”

”I knew that guy was great after watching a handful of preseason snaps” 

We are laughing.

False, again showing you aren’t understanding.

A player can have a great year or play great in a single season, but not be a great player. That’s the discrepancy. Again, see Peyton Hillis. He undoubtedly had a great year in 2010, but was not a great player.

Let’s stay on topic and wrap it up, I don’t want to delve into 7 discussions about the Patriots, Baker Mayfield, and wide receivers.

I think it’s safe to say that - while opinions on their own aren’t necessarily worthless - an opinion that has zero backing doesn’t hold water. So if you’re trying to inform us as you say, do you have anything of substance to bring to the table that says Josh Allen was the leading force of that playoff run? Predictions, eye tests, that stuff is all nice but really anybody can have those and be just as right unless they have something to back it up with. Can’t be informative without any information, you know. So is there anything you can bring to enlighten someone such as myself regarding LAST YEAR’s playoff run of the Bills? Preferably something that isn’t directly contradicted by facts, like some silly comment on their drive efficiency.

[Archimedes]

49 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Been waiting for the “Lister Blister”

[VanS]

On 8/9/2020 at 4:06 PM, Yin-Yang said:

If you’re saying we can’t tell, then how’re you going to say Allen helped Singletary? You can’t have it both ways. Based on the evidence we have, which you may or may not agree is enough but it’s all there is, Allen hasn’t done jack to help the run.

Because he's an athletic running QB and we have the historical precedent in football of seeing how much athletic QBs help their run game because of the focus the defense has to give the QB as an extra weapon in the run game.  I don't get why this is such a difficult concept for you to understand.  Everyone who knows football knows that once the QB is a threat as a runner it forces the defense to have to account for him meaning one less defender dedicated to the run game.  Its why the athletic QB has been en vogue in college football for awhile now while the NFL has only been catching on in recent years. 

On 8/9/2020 at 4:06 PM, Yin-Yang said:

In order for that experiment to work, there has to be a constant. You’re pretending Moss is the constant, which he isn’t. It’s possible both he and Singletary are good players, it’s possible they’re both going to be trash, and all other combos. But using Moss as a measure against Singletary assumes that Moss is a constant, which he isn’t. 

True.  This won't tell us a lot unless there is a huge divergence between the two.  I provided that example not for your benefit but mine.  I wanted to give you a glimpse into my thought process.  I have the apriori opinion that Moss is a pretty good RB.  If Singletary outperforms him by a good margin then I will change my position on Singletary.  Bringing up the fact Singletary outperformed aging RBs on the Bills roster isn't enough to convince me that my eye test opinion of Singletary being an average RB is wrong.  If he vastly outperforms another highly drafted RB who I come into the season believing is a pretty good RB talent then that will cause me to rethink my initial opinion of his talent level.

On 8/9/2020 at 4:06 PM, Yin-Yang said:

Lol. I don’t watch every game every year but I watch all of NE. Bill deserves credit for, generally, getting what’s good out of players but the fact that you’re trying to use the Pats’ “running scheme” as a base is hilarious. Won’t even ask you to elaborate because you absolutely can’t and will just shake it off as “idc to explain”. 

How can you be informative without proof? 

If the word run scheme is the issue here then I take it back.  Let me rephrase my point this way: if a player has his best years with the Patriots and is terrible elsewhere, then I will credit the Patriots system for the little success he had and will believe his actual talent as a football player is subpar.  You can disagree.  But I believe my positon is where most fall on.  Its why the term "system player" has such a negative connotation.  Most people believe that if a player is talented then he will play up to that level on other teams.  He won't just play at a high level for the one team that has dominated football for the last 20 years with all sorts of other players.

On 8/9/2020 at 4:06 PM, Yin-Yang said:

Brady’s rise to stardom doesn’t mean he was the driving force in 2001. It was the defense, Brady was an insanely clutch game manager. 

Before Brady took over the Patriots were 5-11 in 2000 with largely the same roster and Bill Belichick.  If the Patriots struggle over the next 5 years without Brady and Belichick is still the coach it will convince me that Brady was the driving force for the Patriots championships EVEN IN 2001.  The Patriots failing pre-Brady and post-Brady will prove he was that big of a difference-maker.  The stats in 2001 would have underestimated his impact if Belichick is unable to put together another contending season without Brady.  

On 8/9/2020 at 4:06 PM, Yin-Yang said:

“Greatness shows itself over a sustained period of time”

”I knew that guy was great after watching a handful of preseason snaps” 

We are laughing.

Prediction vs confirmation.  I can tell pretty quickly if a player has the talent to be great.  However, for that opinion to be confirmed it requires sustained excellence over time.  For example, if Courtland Sutton never tops his sophomore season (outside of career derailing injuries) then I would be wrong about his talent level.  Sustained excellence confirms greatness.  However, great talent can be spotted very early on.  

On 8/9/2020 at 4:06 PM, Yin-Yang said:

False, again showing you aren’t understanding.

A player can have a great year or play great in a single season, but not be a great player. That’s the discrepancy. Again, see Peyton Hillis. He undoubtedly had a great year in 2010, but was not a great player.

Ok.  I don't care about that.  If you want to discuss one year wonders go at it.  This thread is about who are the top players in the NFL.  It isn't about ranking who had the best season last year.  I'm interested in discussing who are the great players in the NFL.  I don't care much for one great game in a mediocre player's career or one great isolated season.  

On 8/9/2020 at 4:06 PM, Yin-Yang said:

Let’s stay on topic and wrap it up, I don’t want to delve into 7 discussions about the Patriots, Baker Mayfield, and wide receivers.

I think it’s safe to say that - while opinions on their own aren’t necessarily worthless - an opinion that has zero backing doesn’t hold water. So if you’re trying to inform us as you say, do you have anything of substance to bring to the table that says Josh Allen was the leading force of that playoff run? Predictions, eye tests, that stuff is all nice but really anybody can have those and be just as right unless they have something to back it up with. Can’t be informative without any information, you know. So is there anything you can bring to enlighten someone such as myself regarding LAST YEAR’s playoff run of the Bills? Preferably something that isn’t directly contradicted by facts, like some silly comment on their drive efficiency.

I used Mayfield and the Patriots as simple examples to show you my thought process.  I didn't present Mayfield so we could argue about how good he is.  I presented him to show you why I don't put much stock in any single season when it comes to changing my apriori position of a player's talent.  

Before the 2017 draft when I said Alvin Kamara was a better RB prospect than Fournette, McCaffrey, and Cook I had zero backing for that position but my eye test.  There were no stats supporting it.  No athetic testing numbers.  And no credible authorities.  It took him winning Offensive Rookie of the Year for that opinion to be supported.  In 2018 I said Lamar Jackson should get consideration to be the 1st overall pick in the draft because of how great he would be early in his career given his athleticism.  Once again it took him winning MVP this past year for that position to be supported.

I know I can't prove to you RIGHT NOW how great Josh Allen is.  Just like I couldn't prove Kamara was better than Fournette or Lamar Jackson being worthy of going #1 overall.  Those opinions needed future events to support them.  This is no different.  As the pieces around Allen improve on offense his true ability will reveal itself for those like you who are married to the stat sheet.  For me it won't reveal much.  It will only confirm what I knew.  Just as Kamara and Lamar only confirmed what I knew.

Once again I'm not here to debate.  I am here to share my thoughts on the game of football and its players.  I believe my evaluation methods when it comes to determining who is better than who is correct and will allow the future to prove me right or wrong.  That is why I typically like to engage in topics like this one.

 

Edited August 11, 2020 by VanS

[Soko]

1 hour ago, VanS said:

Because he's an athletic running QB and we have the historical precedent in football of seeing how much athletic QBs help their run game because of the focus the defense has to give the QB as an extra weapon in the run game.  I don't get why this is such a difficult concept for you to understand.  Everyone who knows football knows that once the QB is a threat as a runner it forces the defense to have to account for him meaning one less defender dedicated to the run game.  Its why the athletic QB has been en vogue in college football for awhile now while the NFL has only been catching on in recent years. 

Didn’t help McCoy. Didn’t help Gore. Didn’t help Ivory. Apparently only helped Singletary. Did his mobility disappear once Singletary went to the sideline?

Quote

True.  This won't tell us a lot unless there is a huge divergence between the two.  I provided that example not for your benefit but mine.  I wanted to give you a glimpse into my thought process.  I have the apriori opinion that Moss is a pretty good RB.  If Singletary outperforms him by a good margin then I will change my position on Singletary.  Bringing up the fact Singletary outperformed aging RBs on the Bills roster isn't enough to convince me that my eye test opinion of Singletary being an average RB is wrong.  If he vastly outperforms another highly drafted RB who I come into the season believing is a pretty good RB talent then that will cause me to rethink my initial opinion of his talent level.

I wasn’t comparing Singletary to the other RBs. I was comparing the other RBs to themselves. 

Quote

If the word run scheme is the issue here then I take it back.  Let me rephrase my point this way: if a player has his best years with the Patriots and is terrible elsewhere, then I will credit the Patriots system for the little success he had and will believe his actual talent as a football player is subpar.  You can disagree.  But I believe my positon is where most fall on.  Its why the term "system player" has such a negative connotation.  Most people believe that if a player is talented then he will play up to that level on other teams.  He won't just play at a high level for the one team that has dominated football for the last 20 years with all sorts of other players.

Fair enough, thanks for clarifying. That said, Ridley still struggled as a Patriot aside from 2012, that was just prior to the IOL issues they ran into. Ridley doesn’t have to be the only example, you can look at essentially any one hit wonder. The point being with all of them is that you can have a great season, be a great player in that individual season, but be a mediocre player overall with a mediocre career. If a good player dips, that doesn’t necessarily mean he was never good and was only elevated by his environment. 

Quote

Before Brady took over the Patriots were 5-11 in 2000 with largely the same roster and Bill Belichick.  If the Patriots struggle over the next 5 years without Brady and Belichick is still the coach it will convince me that Brady was the driving force for the Patriots championships EVEN IN 2001.  The Patriots failing pre-Brady and post-Brady will prove he was that big of a difference-maker.  The stats in 2001 would have underestimated his impact if Belichick is unable to put together another contending season without Brady.  

The 2000 was very different. 3 different starters on the offensive line, including franchise staple LT Matt Light. The addition of Antowain Smith. Adding Mike Vrabel and Richard Seymour in that mix. 

Quote

Prediction vs confirmation.  I can tell pretty quickly if a player has the talent to be great.  However, for that opinion to be confirmed it requires sustained excellence over time.  For example, if Courtland Sutton never tops his sophomore season (outside of career derailing injuries) then I would be wrong about his talent level.  Sustained excellence confirms greatness.  However, great talent can be spotted very early on.  

This doesn’t make sense but is neither here nor there, as far as the topic of Josh Allen and the 2019 Bills go.

Quote

Ok.  I don't care about that.  If you want to discuss one year wonders go at it.  This thread is about who are the top players in the NFL.  It isn't about ranking who had the best season last year.  I'm interested in discussing who are the great players in the NFL.  I don't care much for one great game in a mediocre player's career or one great isolated season.  

We’ve been discussing one year this entire time. I initially quoted you making a comment on the Bills for this one year, last year.

Quote

I know I can't prove to you RIGHT NOW how great Josh Allen is.  Just like I couldn't prove Kamara was better than Fournette or Lamar Jackson being worthy of going #1 overall.  Those opinions needed future events to support them.  This is no different.  As the pieces around Allen improve on offense his true ability will reveal itself for those like you who are married to the stat sheet.  For me it won't reveal much.  It will only confirm what I knew.  Just as Kamara and Lamar only confirmed what I knew.

Once again I'm not here to debate.  I am here to share my thoughts on the game of football and its players.  I believe my evaluation methods when it comes to determining who is better than who is correct and will allow the future to prove me right or wrong.  That is why I typically like to engage in topics like this one.

You still can’t unmarry the idea of Josh Allen being a talented or great player and his contribution to the Bills last year, can you? Hopefully for the last time, ***no one is discussing Josh Allen as a player, strictly what he contributed last season***. They are not the same discussion. 

But alas, we get to the conclusion albeit on a different road. There’s nothing right now that suggests Allen was the driving force of the 2019 Bills playoff run. I suppose you believe that him being x10 league MVP between 2021 and 2031 may change what was factual in 2019, but it will not. If I had known your only points of reference were crystal ball tellings (and not just silly comments about how bad the Bills were at extending drives), then this could’ve been avoided.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Yin-Yang

[JAF-N72EX]

1 hour ago, VanS said:

Because he's an athletic running QB and we have the historical precedent in football of seeing how much athletic QBs help their run game because of the focus the defense has to give the QB as an extra weapon in the run game.

True.  This won't tell us a lot unless there is a huge divergence between the two.  I provided that example not for your benefit but mine.  I wanted to give you a glimpse into my thought process.  I have the apriori opinion that Moss is a pretty good RB.  If Singletary outperforms him by a good margin then I will change my position on Singletary.  Bringing up the fact Singletary outperformed aging RBs on the Bills roster isn't enough to convince me that my eye test opinion of Singletary being an average RB is wrong.  If he vastly outperforms another highly drafted RB who I come into the season believing is a pretty good RB talent then that will cause me to rethink my initial opinion of his talent level.

If the word run scheme is the issue here then I take it back.  Let me rephrase my point this way: if a player has his best years with the Patriots and is terrible elsewhere, then I will credit the Patriots system for the little success he had and will believe his actual talent as a football player is subpar.  You can disagree.  But I believe my positon is where most fall on.  Its why the term "system player" has such a negative connotation.  Most people believe that if a player is talented then he will play up to that level on other teams.  He won't just play at a high level for the one team that has dominated football for the last 20 years with all sorts of other players.

Before Brady took over the Patriots were 5-11 in 2000 with largely the same roster and Bill Belichick.  If the Patriots struggle over the next 5 years without Brady and Belichick is still the coach it will convince me that Brady was the driving force for the Patriots championships EVEN IN 2001.  The Patriots failing pre-Brady and post-Brady will prove he was that big of a difference-maker.  The stats in 2001 would have underestimated his impact if Belichick is unable to put together another contending season without Brady.  

Prediction vs confirmation.  I can tell pretty quickly if a player has the talent to be great.  However, for that opinion to be confirmed it requires sustained excellence over time.  For example, if Courtland Sutton never tops his sophomore season (outside of career derailing injuries) then I would be wrong about his talent level.  Sustained excellence confirms greatness.  However, great talent can be spotted very early on.  

Ok.  I don't care about that.  If you want to discuss one year wonders go at it.  This thread is about who are the top players in the NFL.  It isn't about ranking who had the best season last year.  I'm interested in discussing who are the great players in the NFL.  I don't care much for one great game in a mediocre player's career or one great isolated season.  

I used Mayfield and the Patriots as simple examples to show you my thought process.  I didn't present Mayfield so we could argue about how good he is.  I presented him to show you why I don't put much stock in any single season when it comes to changing my apriori position of a player's talent.  

Before the 2017 draft when I said Alvin Kamara was a better RB prospect than Fournette, McCaffrey, and Cook I had zero backing for that position but my eye test.  There were no stats supporting it.  No athetic testing numbers.  And no credible authorities.  It took him winning Offensive Rookie of the Year for that opinion to be supported.  In 2018 I said Lamar Jackson should get consideration to be the 1st overall pick in the draft because of how great he would be early in his career given his athleticism.  Once again it took him winning MVP this past year for that position to be supported.

I know I can't prove to you RIGHT NOW how great Josh Allen is.  Just like I couldn't prove Kamara was better than Fournette or Lamar Jackson being worthy of going #1 overall.  Those opinions needed future events to support them.  This is no different.  As the pieces around Allen improve on offense his true ability will reveal itself for those like you who are married to the stat sheet.  For me it won't reveal much.  It will only confirm what I knew.  Just as Kamara and Lamar only confirmed what I knew.

 

Okay, I have read back on this thread, and as someone who has remained neutral and has stayed out of this debate altogether, I think the bigger issue here is that you're getting too far away from the main point that started this debate in the first place. 

You have spent more time explaining yourself as to HOW you came this conclusion than you have actually defending or supporting your initial statement.

Newsflash, nobody cares how your "thought process" works when evaluating players. They simply wanna HOW you came to conclusion in the first place. And from what I can tell, you haven't backed up your initial statement at all with anything other than "eye test".

Now I ask you this. Could it be possible be that your eye test could also be wrong?  

 

[Hunter2_1]

4 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Didn’t help McCoy. Didn’t help Gore. Didn’t help Ivory. Apparently only helped Singletary. Did his mobility disappear once Singletary went to the sideline?

I wasn’t comparing Singletary to the other RBs. I was comparing the other RBs to themselves. 

Fair enough, thanks for clarifying. That said, Ridley still struggled as a Patriot aside from 2012, that was just prior to the IOL issues they ran into. Ridley doesn’t have to be the only example, you can look at essentially any one hit wonder. The point being with all of them is that you can have a great season, be a great player in that individual season, but be a mediocre player overall with a mediocre career. If a good player dips, that doesn’t necessarily mean he was never good and was only elevated by his environment. 

The 2000 was very different. 3 different starters on the offensive line, including franchise staple LT Matt Light. The addition of Antowain Smith. Adding Mike Vrabel and Richard Seymour in that mix. 

This doesn’t make sense but is neither here nor there, as far as the topic of Josh Allen and the 2019 Bills go.

We’ve been discussing one year this entire time. I initially quoted you making a comment on the Bills for this one year, last year.

You still can’t unmarry the idea of Josh Allen being a talented or great player and his contribution to the Bills last year, can you? Hopefully for the last time, ***no one is discussing Josh Allen as a player, strictly what he contributed last season***. They are not the same discussion. 

But alas, we get to the conclusion albeit on a different road. There’s nothing right now that suggests Allen was the driving force of the 2019 Bills playoff run. I suppose you believe that him being x10 league MVP between 2021 and 2031 may change what was factual in 2019, but it will not. If I had known your only points of reference were crystal ball tellings (and not just silly comments about how bad the Bills were at extending drives), then this could’ve been avoided.

It's ok @ET80 I got you...

 

[ET80]

6 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Newsflash, nobody cares how your "thought process" works when evaluating players. They simply wanna HOW you came to conclusion in the first place. And from what I can tell, you haven't backed up your initial statement at all with anything other than "eye test".

Meanwhile, @Yin-Yang dunked on that initial statement on page 5-6 of this thread:

On 7/31/2020 at 2:23 PM, VanS said:

LOL.  You must seriously overrate the talent of your team if you think Josh Allen is holding you guys back.  He's the main reason your team even made the playoffs last year.

 

On 7/31/2020 at 3:51 PM, Yin-Yang said:

“Main reason the Bills made the playoffs”

Offensive DVOA: 21st

Defensive DVOA: 6th

Offensive PPG: 23rd

Defensive PPG: 2nd

Offensive points/drive: 24th

Defensive points/drive: 2nd

Offensive yards: 24th

Defensive yards: 3rd

Offensive first downs: 20th

Defensive first downs: 6th

Passing yards/TDs: 26th, 24th

Rushing yards/TDs: 8th, 18th

There’s nothing that suggests Allen or the Bills passing offense in general is even the 3rd most important reason they made the playoffs last year...

 

 

On 7/31/2020 at 10:33 PM, VanS said:

Football isn't played in a vacuum.  Offense and defense help each other out.  If Josh Allen isn't moving the chains with his legs and playmaking ability then the defense has to be on the field longer and their numbers would decrease due to fatigue.  

 

On 8/1/2020 at 12:30 AM, Yin-Yang said:

The Bills offense was 21st in TOP/drive. 26th in plays/drive. 26th in yards/drive. 24th in points/drive. 20th in first downs. 24th in 3D%. 

So yeah, nothing about their drive length in plays, time, points, or first downs really show that the defense was getting extra rest. If anything, the defense was getting less rest than most of the league. 

After this, it's been nothing more than gratuitous violence, dunk after dunk - just beating a corpse to the point of being unrecognizable.

On the plus side, it's proven to me that @Yin-Yang is a national treasure, worthy of federal funding...

[Hunter2_1]

Shall we call it a victory then, and move on?....

 

Unless of course you want to see more...

 

[ET80]

1 hour ago, Hunter2_1 said:

Shall we call it a victory then, and move on?....

 

You don't know VanS, do you? He's the guy who makes light of Federal crimes to defend his scouting report, and will continue to defend a scouting report of a backup QB on his 2nd team as having greater potential than a league MVP, Super Bowl MVP and the first half-billion dollar QB in NFL history...

Heck, he hasn't even acknowledged the swing and miss on his 2nd QB from that 2017 class... Brad Kaaya.

[Breesus mode]

5 hours ago, ET80 said:

You don't know VanS, do you? He's the guy who makes light of Federal crimes to defend his scouting report, and will continue to defend a scouting report of a backup QB on his 2nd team as having greater potential than a league MVP, Super Bowl MVP and the first half-billion dollar QB in NFL history...

Heck, he hasn't even acknowledged the swing and miss on his 2nd QB from that 2017 class... Brad Kaaya.

Oh lord, please link his Kaaya evaluation

[DawgX]

@Yin-Yang

[ET80]

32 minutes ago, Breesus mode said:

Oh lord, please link his Kaaya evaluation

I'll let him defend it first... There are a few bullets in that clip I'm saving for a rainy day.

[Breesus mode]

9 minutes ago, ET80 said:

I'll let him defend it first... There are a few bullets in that clip I'm saving for a rainy day.

[Hunter2_1]

2 hours ago, Breesus mode said:

Oh lord, please link his Kaaya evaluation

Here you go..

"

For the record, I'm still 100% confident that Josh Dobbs will be the best QB from this class and Brad Kaaya will be in the top 3.  The guy who has moved up to my #2 is Patrick Mahomes.  He's a little better than I thought.  I still feel the same about Deshaun Watson.  Immense talent but serious durability concerns.  I fear he won't have a long career."

 

https://forums.footballsfuture.com/topic/5291-your-draft-hot-takes/page/16/?tab=comments#comment-607917

 

Search function is GOAT

 

@ET80 gotta give him a bit of credit for thinking Mahomes was a little better than originally thought....

Edited August 11, 2020 by Hunter2_1