NFLN Top 100 Players of 2020

[ET80]

33 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

No one is talking about Allen long-term. You’re inserting that into this debate for, I assume:

A) You can’t not gush over Allen without his name being mentioned.

B) You aren’t reading what we’re saying, resulting in a massive misinterpretation. 

My conversation with you has started on and will continue to be in regards to Allen’s credit for being the “driving force” of their playoff run. For future reference, I will quote this specifically every time you attempt to change the topic or rope me into a debate you were having with some guy at a bar.

Exactly. The eye test. You are debating facts with your opinion.

And this isn’t like you’re eye-scouting talent, where two reputable people can legitimately see different things. This isn’t a situation where one back is better than another, but they don’t have the stats to back it up. This is you saying Allen did a good job extending drives and giving the defense rest, when the offense actually struggled doing any of that. Like, in an undebatable way. They were poor in that regard. No amount of “well that’s my OPINION” or eye tests will support that. It’s like calling someone who shot 20% from 3P range a good outside shooter, because that’s what you saw.

Nah, it’s legitimate. You are accusing people of cutting up your posts to only respond to what’s convenient, when you’ve been doing that for as long as I’ve seen you post. I have questions whether you’re doing okay, bro.

Yeah, never joined in on that debate. Once again, find me saying Allen isn’t a Top 100 player, if you can (you can’t). 

Except Lamar Jackson quarterback’d a historically great offense. Josh Allen quarterback’d an offense that struggled converting third downs and scoring points. There’s a massive difference.

You have a great offense and a great defense, you can debate who deserves what kind of credit. But if you have a great defense and a mediocre offense, there’s really no way the QB is going to be the “driving force” of the playoff run. Or at least, you’d have to prove it somehow. Saying “that’s just my opinion” or “that’s what I saw” is a pretty pathetic way of making a point, don’t you think?

[Soko]

9 minutes ago, ET80 said:

And, I don't recall @Yin-Yang (the dude dunking on you with every post) ever arguing this? You said something about how Buffalo doesn't make the playoffs with the #2 defense without Allen? That's the current argument right now?

Mental gymnastics... that's what this is.

[diamondbull424]

1 hour ago, Archimedes said:

He’s not. He’s not even the best QB in the NFL. There are no fewer than five QBs currently definitively better than him, two of whom play in the same conference as him.

I’d LOVE to hear this list of five QBs that are DEFINITIVELY better than Lamar; who are they and what makes them DEFINITIVELY better?

[VanS]

6 hours ago, Breesus mode said:

Fixed

Actually I've admitted being wrong many times already.  You guys just choose to ignore them and instead focus on someone like Dobbs who hasn't really gotten a chance to show us what he's got.  For example, I missed big time on Courtland Sutton.  I had him rated as a 3rd round talent with a comparison to JJ Stokley.  He's been way better than that and I knew I was wrong about him a few snaps into his first preseason game.  I also missed badly on Darius Leonard.  Had him rated similar to Telvin Smith when he's far better.  And so on.

When I'm wrong about a player I'm usually the first to say so. 

Edited August 6, 2020 by VanS

[VanS]

6 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

No one is talking about Allen long-term. You’re inserting that into this debate for, I assume:

A) You can’t not gush over Allen without his name being mentioned.

B) You aren’t reading what we’re saying, resulting in a massive misinterpretation.

Once again you love to ignore the following sentence where I explain exactly why I said that.  Here let me repeat myself:

" That is why I said it'll be long term success that proves me right.  My entire theory regarding this whole thread is circumstances in the short term that are divergent for most players leads to misleading evaluations about how good they are and their contributions to their respective team.  If you read any of my posts regarding Lamar Jackson vs Patrick Mahomes you'll see the same central theory.  Over the long haul however (i.e. an entire career) the circumstances will mostly even out and the true level of talent and impact a player has will reveal itself. "

What I'm trying to show ya'll is in a team sport like football circumstances matter so much that its wrong to try and evaluate players simply on the raw metrics.  I utilize the eye test because its the only way to take the relative circumstances between different players into account.  My evaluation of Josh Allen is this.  In 2019 he had a poor offensive line, poor running backs, poor wide receivers and tight ends, and a poor offensive coordinator.  Put it all together and he was facing tremendous odds but yet performed way above the expectations I had for a QB playing with that level of talent around him.  That is why I said he was the driving force behind their playoff run because I couldn't think of 5 QBs who in the same situation could do what he did.

If I am right about Josh Allen's talent and ability then over time as the Bills surround him with more adequate weapons (and hopefully a better offensive coordinator) his raw numbers will explode and begin to reflect the talent level he's always had but wasn't able to show because of the lack of talent around him.

6 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

It’s like calling someone who shot 20% from 3P range a good outside shooter, because that’s what you saw.

I'm so glad you brought this up because basketball is a better sport for explaining exactly what I mean.  Lets go with your 20% example.  If the player in question was facing defenses that were more intense than other players.  If he was getting doubled and tripled.  If the degree of difficulty on his attempts were much harder than most other players then I would be justified in calling him a good 3pt shooter despite the raw metrics not showing it because based on relative degree of difficulty, him making 20% of his attempts makes him a much better shooter than someone who hits 40% on mostly open 3-point shots.

This is a classic situation that comes up in most Kobe Bryant vs LeBron James debates.  LeBron James has a higher career 3pt% than Kobe but almost no basketball expert would say LeBron is a better 3-point shooter than Kobe despite the better shooting %.  Why?  Because if you watch both guys play you would clearly see that the difference in their percentages comes down to the fact Kobe Bryant took significantly more high degree of difficulty shots because defenses played him for the jump shot moreso than LeBron James who defenders are more than content to let shoot long range jumpers because they don't fear his ability as a jump shooter the same way they did when it came to Kobe Bryant.  So while your 20% from 3P range example was a bit extreme.  Its very easy to say someone is a better shooter than someone else despite having a lower shooting percentage when you take circumstances into account (i.e. how defenses play them and the quality of their looks).

6 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Except Lamar Jackson quarterback’d a historically great offense. Josh Allen quarterback’d an offense that struggled converting third downs and scoring points. There’s a massive difference.

You have a great offense and a great defense, you can debate who deserves what kind of credit. But if you have a great defense and a mediocre offense, there’s really no way the QB is going to be the “driving force” of the playoff run. Or at least, you’d have to prove it somehow. Saying “that’s just my opinion” or “that’s what I saw” is a pretty pathetic way of making a point, don’t you think?

I think you misunderstood why I mentioned Lamar there.  I wasn't trying to compare Lamar to Josh at all.  I was talking about my pre-draft evaluation of Lamar.  When I called for him to be the 1st overall pick in the 2018 draft because he would have the most short term impact I was attacked for that take.  Obviously that has been proven right given his MVP season last year.   I'm simply saying that given time the Bills should be able to surround Josh Allen with talent on offense and he will eventually start to look OBJECTIVELY like the player I'm saying he already is but can't really prove given the lack of talent around him.

[Scoundrel]

37 minutes ago, VanS said:

Actually I've admitted being wrong many times already.  You guys just choose to ignore them and instead focus on someone like Dobbs who hasn't really gotten a chance to show us what he's got.  For example, I missed big time on Courtland Sutton.  I had him rated as a 3rd round talent with a comparison to JJ Stokley.  He's been way better than that and I knew I was wrong about him a few snaps into his first preseason game.  I also missed badly on Darius Leonard.  Had him rated similar to Telvin Smith when he's far better.  And so on.

When I'm wrong about a player I'm usually the first to say so. 

Just give two times you were wrong for every time you were right and this will help. 

[Soko]

1 hour ago, VanS said:

Once again you love to ignore the following sentence where I explain exactly why I said that.  Here let me repeat myself:

" That is why I said it'll be long term success that proves me right.  My entire theory regarding this whole thread is circumstances in the short term that are divergent for most players leads to misleading evaluations about how good they are and their contributions to their respective team.  If you read any of my posts regarding Lamar Jackson vs Patrick Mahomes you'll see the same central theory.  Over the long haul however (i.e. an entire career) the circumstances will mostly even out and the true level of talent and impact a player has will reveal itself. "

So let’s clarify: you’re saying the end of Josh’s career is when we can determine whether or not the defense led the 2019 Bills to the playoffs? That we can’t look at a single season and assign any value until (which you have done) the end of everyone’s careers...?

EDIT: So when asked for evidence of your claim, you say the future will prove you right. If only the future will prove you right, that’s essentially saying you have nothing to contribute right now other than crystal ball tellings...

Quote

What I'm trying to show ya'll is in a team sport like football circumstances matter so much that its wrong to try and evaluate players simply on the raw metrics.  I utilize the eye test because its the only way to take the relative circumstances between different players into account. 

You choose the eye test because it’s indefensible. Going 100% stat based isn’t the right way either, but at least there’s a basis. You’re making statements that are wrong, factually, and just claiming eye test. Holds about zero water.

Question for you: you inaccurately tried to portray Allen as a QB that did a good job giving the defense rest and converting third downs, thus allowed the defense to be the elite unit that it is. Wouldn’t it make sense that an elite defensive unit allows the QB to play better? So wouldn’t that help Allen out, knowing he didn’t have to take unnecessary risks? Didn’t have to score tons of points every game? Didn’t have to win the game on his own? 

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My evaluation of Josh Allen is this.  In 2019 he had a poor offensive line,

There offensive line wasn’t great, give you that. Not league worst, but not great.

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poor running backs

Devin Singletary is poor now, huh?

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, poor wide receivers and tight ends,

Tight ends, yes. John Brown is poor? Cole Beasley is poor? They’re not world beaters but they’re far from poor. Offensively the Bills probably have the best in the division.

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and a poor offensive coordinator

How do you believe him to be poor? 

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Put it all together and he was facing tremendous odds but yet performed way above the expectations I had for a QB playing with that level of talent around him.  That is why I said he was the driving force behind their playoff run because I couldn't think of 5 QBs who in the same situation could do what he did.

“Tremendous odds”, you’d think he was facing the KD-Warriors. He had a below average cast overall and put up below average results. 

Quote

If I am right about Josh Allen's talent and ability then over time as the Bills surround him with more adequate weapons (and hopefully a better offensive coordinator) his raw numbers will explode and begin to reflect the talent level he's always had but wasn't able to show because of the lack of talent around him.

My conversation with you has started on and will continue to be in regards to Allen’s credit for being the “driving force” of their playoff run. For future reference, I will quote this specifically every time you attempt to change the topic or rope me into a debate you were having with some guy at a bar.

Quote

I'm so glad you brought this up because basketball is a better sport for explaining exactly what I mean.  Lets go with your 20% example.  If the player in question was facing defenses that were more intense than other players.  If he was getting doubled and tripled.  If the degree of difficulty on his attempts were much harder than most other players then I would be justified in calling him a good 3pt shooter despite the raw metrics not showing it because based on relative degree of difficulty, him making 20% of his attempts makes him a much better shooter than someone who hits 40% on mostly open 3-point shots.

You’d be a joke doing that too. When did poor results become a gold standard? That isn’t just a VanS thing either, this board has been doing it a lot lately. “Player X performed immensely worse than Player Y, but Player X was hampered by this - so he’s better or as good!” How do you prove that? You can’t. And why would you want to? Not sure.

Quote

This is a classic situation that comes up in most Kobe Bryant vs LeBron James debates.  LeBron James has a higher career 3pt% than Kobe but almost no basketball expert would say LeBron is a better 3-point shooter than Kobe despite the better shooting %.  Why?  Because if you watch both guys play you would clearly see that the difference in their percentages comes down to the fact Kobe Bryant took significantly more high degree of difficulty shots because defenses played him for the jump shot moreso than LeBron James who defenders are more than content to let shoot long range jumpers because they don't fear his ability as a jump shooter the same way they did when it came to Kobe Bryant.  So while your 20% from 3P range example was a bit extreme.  Its very easy to say someone is a better shooter than someone else despite having a lower shooting percentage when you take circumstances into account (i.e. how defenses play them and the quality of their looks).

Okay so if we translated this back to football, Allen should’ve had an even easier time throwing the call since defenses were concerned with the run more than the pass, right? And he still did a bad job? Got it! 

Quote

I think you misunderstood why I mentioned Lamar there.  I wasn't trying to compare Lamar to Josh at all.  I was talking about my pre-draft evaluation of Lamar.  When I called for him to be the 1st overall pick in the 2018 draft because he would have the most short term impact I was attacked for that take.  Obviously that has been proven right given his MVP season last year.   I'm simply saying that given time the Bills should be able to surround Josh Allen with talent on offense and he will eventually start to look OBJECTIVELY like the player I'm saying he already is but can't really prove given the lack of talent around him.

Who cares about down the road or him as a player. 

My conversation with you has started on and will continue to be in regards to Allen’s credit for being the “driving force” of their playoff run. For future reference, I will quote this specifically every time you attempt to change the topic or rope me into a debate you were having with some guy at a bar.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Yin-Yang

[Soko]

47 minutes ago, Counselor said:

Just give two times you were wrong for every time you were right and this will help. 

It’s his favorite example. And in case you weren’t already questioning it’s legitimacy, he throws in the “and it only took a couple preseason snaps” to really hammer it home. I for one appreciate that commitment.

[Scoundrel]

7 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

It’s his favorite example. And in case you weren’t already questioning it’s legitimacy, he throws in the “and it only took a couple preseason snaps” to really hammer it home. I for one appreciate that commitment.

Small steps is how we will get through this together in a therapeutic manner.

[Chiefs_5627]

FFS these last few pages are about as one sided as a debate can possibly get. 

[ET80]

5 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

So let’s clarify: you’re saying the end of Josh’s career is when we can determine whether or not the defense led the 2019 Bills to the playoffs? That we can’t look at a single season and assign any value until (which you have done) the end of everyone’s careers...?

EDIT: So when asked for evidence of your claim, you say the future will prove you right. If only the future will prove you right, that’s essentially saying you have nothing to contribute right now other than crystal ball tellings...

You choose the eye test because it’s indefensible. Going 100% stat based isn’t the right way either, but at least there’s a basis. You’re making statements that are wrong, factually, and just claiming eye test. Holds about zero water.

Question for you: you inaccurately tried to portray Allen as a QB that did a good job giving the defense rest and converting third downs, thus allowed the defense to be the elite unit that it is. Wouldn’t it make sense that an elite defensive unit allows the QB to play better? So wouldn’t that help Allen out, knowing he didn’t have to take unnecessary risks? Didn’t have to score tons of points every game? Didn’t have to win the game on his own? 

There offensive line wasn’t great, give you that. Not league worst, but not great.

Devin Singletary is poor now, huh?

Tight ends, yes. John Brown is poor? Cole Beasley is poor? They’re not world beaters but they’re far from poor. Offensively the Bills probably have the best in the division.

How do you believe him to be poor? 

“Tremendous odds”, you’d think he was facing the KD-Warriors. He had a below average cast overall and put up below average results. 

My conversation with you has started on and will continue to be in regards to Allen’s credit for being the “driving force” of their playoff run. For future reference, I will quote this specifically every time you attempt to change the topic or rope me into a debate you were having with some guy at a bar.

You’d be a joke doing that too. When did poor results become a gold standard? That isn’t just a VanS thing either, this board has been doing it a lot lately. “Player X performed immensely worse than Player Y, but Player X was hampered by this - so he’s better or as good!” How do you prove that? You can’t. And why would you want to? Not sure.

Okay so if we translated this back to football, Allen should’ve had an even easier time throwing the call since defenses were concerned with the run more than the pass, right? And he still did a bad job? Got it! 

Who cares about down the road or him as a player. 

My conversation with you has started on and will continue to be in regards to Allen’s credit for being the “driving force” of their playoff run. For future reference, I will quote this specifically every time you attempt to change the topic or rope me into a debate you were having with some guy at a bar.

[ET80]

6 hours ago, VanS said:

When I'm wrong about a player I'm usually the first to say so. 

No. No, you're not.

[ET80]

5 hours ago, Counselor said:

Just give two times you were wrong for every time you were right and this will help. 

...he literally thinks he was wrong only once. With Cortland Sutton.

[Scoundrel]

2 hours ago, ET80 said:

...he literally thinks he was wrong only once. With Cortland Sutton.

He did state Darius Leonard

[Nex_Gen]

Happy to see Chandler Jones get a top 15 recognition. Dude has been everything you thought he would become and is still criminally underrated.