NFLN Top 100 Players of 2020

[Breesus mode]

Yes, Sean Payton is totally a genius and mostly responsible for MT and Brees’ success. Totally. He’s a great offensive mind, but he has his warts, and definitely not a defensive minded guy.

[animaltested]

Football fans are insufferable when it comes to arguments around the validity of player or positional rankings.

Ranking based on polling of players = garbage

PFF = garbage

PFT = also garbage

BleacherReport = trash

ESPN = arse

Twitter Insiders = trash

Former players/ executives = out of touch garbage

Team Bloggers = Biased trash

SI-CBS-USTODAY = garbage

Their own personal rankings = pretty damn good TBH

INB4 some smark quotes one of these and replies "yes"

 

[Soko]

3 hours ago, VanS said:

I give credit to athletes based on their talent level moreso than the results

LOL. 

And there we have it. Allen gets credit because of his talent. Forget what literally happened on the field! Forget that the offense was bottom 10 in most categories. Forget that the defense was an elite unit while the offense was below league average. Bills win a game 7-0, with the only score being a defensive touchdown? Allen gets the credit, he’s the most talented!

BTW, do you have any comment on your wrong statement about Josh Allen extending drives?

[Breesus mode]

23 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

LOL. 

And there we have it. Allen gets credit because of his talent. Forget what literally happened on the field! Forget that the offense was bottom 10 in most categories. Forget that the defense was an elite unit while the offense was below league average. Bills win a game 7-0, with the only score being a defensive touchdown? Allen gets the credit, he’s the most talented!

BTW, do you have any comment on your wrong statement about Josh Allen extending drives?

lolno he'll either never respond or move the goalposts

[Archimedes]

5 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

LOL. Before you respond you may want to reread my post because I already covered exactly WHY the OL grade in 2018 was unreliable... because prior to Lamar Jackson taking over they were FAR WORSE AT RUN BLOCKING. And the whole point is comparing the OL PRIOR TO LAMAR starting.

Imagine that, you are using:

A different offensive line's end of season PFF grade in 2017, a  2018 PFF preseason grade, and the y/c of bad RBs (we both agree they were bad), to dismiss the ACTUAL PFF and FO numbers on their 2018 performance.

Before Lamar was starting, the RBs sucked, and that's why their y/c sucked. It wasn't the OL's fault. That's why the Ravens, you know, went out and found a new starting RB for 2019.

5 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

Oh let’s not move the goal posts now. You claimed that the offense was not composed of subpar talent prior to Lamar starting. You specifically attributed the subpar offense to Flacco being a bottom 5 QB in 2018, since you admit that he wasn’t as bad as you thought, then clearly you must also admit that the offensive talent wasn’t as good as you thought (as something has to balance the scales).

What a beyond obnoxious, and ridiculous attempt to play "gotcha", when I was trying to give you a small concession. Flacco still sucked and drug the offense as a whole down. But since I said he may have been bottom 8 instead of bottom 5, you're going "see, you were wrong about Flacco, you're wrong about the OL!!!!" OK, mental note taken, you're not mature enough to handle subtle points, so I won't be giving you anymore concessions. 

5 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

1. Until you can explain 31st rushing yards and 32nd rushing average prior to Lamar, then there is no need to adjust the OL rankings.

2. Even if the OL was considered “good”, which the inability to establish a running game was a major detriment that led to the 4-5 record so it was most certainly not good prior to Lamar taking over, that still would not balance the scales.

1. Evaluating an OL, based off the production of bad RBs make no sense. How do you know their production wouldn't have been even worse playing behind a worse offensive line? You already admitted that they were bad players.

There, is that simple enough for you.

2. Their OL wasn't "considered good", it was good. As for the record, the Ravens had a +53 point differential during that 4-5 start. With anything resembling average QB play, they would have won at least 2 if not 3 more games. Not that the W-L has any bearing on the OL's performance. It was the product of the RBs and QB sucking. 

6 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

The Ravens RBs were based on the numbers a bottom 3 unit in talent. The Ravens WRs were a bottom 10 unit in talent. The Ravens TEs were a top 5 unit in talent. The Ravens OL was a somewhere between 10th and 31st, but let’s exaggerate and say it was top 10 in talent prior to Lamar. This would average out to them ranking below the top 16, which is an average to below average unit, which is mediocre, which is subpar.

Which was my entire point from the start, that Lamar inherited a subpar offense. Yet you’re unable to credit him for his ability to get both the OL and RB units to pull a complete 180 from their early season forms... so if Lamar’s influence did not turn things around for those units, then what was the cause for the improvements?

No, the unit was NOT below 16 as a whole! They were a middle of the pack offense with A BAD STARTING QB! There had to be something keeping them from languishing at the bottom of the barrel in 2018, when they had a very bad football player manning their most important position (Hint, it was the OL and stud TE)! No, I'm NOT giving Lamar credit for the OL, because your entire ridiculous argument revolves around punishing them because a bunch of bad RBs had bad production while playing behind them. 

I get it though. You've created a narrative in your head about how Lamar single-handedly carried the Ravens offense from the pits last year, and no amount of actual evidence will change your mind. 

[wackywabbit]

25 minutes ago, Archimedes said:

1. Evaluating an OL, based off the production of bad RBs make no sense. How do you know their production wouldn't have been even worse playing behind a worse offensive line? You already admitted that they were bad players.

I guess that's what you'll have to tell yourself to sell the point you were trying to make. The new RBs are what transformed the offense. Gus Edwards is a future HoFer.

[Archimedes]

7 minutes ago, wackywabbit said:

I guess that's what you'll have to tell yourself to sell the point you were trying to make. The new RBs are what transformed the offense. Gus Edwards is a future HoFer.

Your reading comprehension sucks. Nowhere did I say anything about Gus Edwards "transforming the OL" or being a future "HOFer". I didn't even imply it. Lamar helped the RBs  production, but NOT the OL, but you keep telling yourself otherwise. 

You Ravens fans who are Lamar worshippers don't remotely deserve the talented team that's currently in place. It's spectacularly weaksauce that y'all would crap all over your team to prop up one player. Y'all are also making me respect Patriots fans even more, who are mature enough not to crap all over Belichick in order to prop up Brady.

So double damn you all for making me give props to NE fans. 

[wackywabbit]

33 minutes ago, Archimedes said:

Your reading comprehension sucks. Nowhere did I say anything about Gus Edwards "transforming the OL" or being a future "HOFer". I didn't even imply it. Lamar helped the RBs  production, but NOT the OL, but you keep telling yourself otherwise. 

You Ravens fans who are Lamar worshippers don't remotely deserve the talented team that's currently in place. It's spectacularly weaksauce that y'all would crap all over your team to prop up one player. Y'all are also making me respect Patriots fans even more, who are mature enough not to crap all over Belichick in order to prop up Brady.

So double damn you all for making me give props to NE fans. 

The offense is what it is. It's a mediocre group right now without Lamar. If you plugged in a mediocre QB I would expect mediocre results this coming season. We know what a mediocre offense is. We've seen it for a long time. Flacco (before he got hurt) was not a terribad QB like you making him out to be to tell your narrative. He was the epitome of mediocre. You can have great players on great units like we had with Ray Lewis and Ed Reed on some great defenses. They were still legends. But, that's not always the case. Newton had an MVP season with a mediocre supporting cast too. It's not unprecedented.

If you want to stare at the Ravens offensive group long enough to convince yourself it's a top 10 supporting cast, then see what you want to see. The tackle duo is very good. Andrews is very good. The receivers are a bottom 5 group. The interior O-line is just above replacement level. The backs are products of Lamar and the offense (unless Dobbins is special, but there is a reason we drafted Dobbins). 

Edited August 4, 2020 by wackywabbit

[ET80]

5 hours ago, VanS said:

While Dobbs is the guy glued to the bench by the coach until all other options have been exhausted but then gets his shot and rockets to stardom

The mental gymnastics here is astounding. 

[ET80]

2 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

BTW, do you have any comment on your wrong statement about Josh Allen extending drives?

I'm going to bet this will go unanswered.

[Soko]

19 minutes ago, ET80 said:

I'm going to bet this will go unanswered.

I’m guessing it’ll be “it would be even worse without an elite playmaker” or something to that effect. 

[diamondbull424]

2 hours ago, Archimedes said:

Imagine that, you are using:

A different offensive line's end of season PFF grade in 2017, a  2018 PFF preseason grade, and the y/c of bad RBs (we both agree they were bad), to dismiss the ACTUAL PFF and FO numbers on their 2018 performance.

Before Lamar was starting, the RBs sucked, and that's why their y/c sucked. It wasn't the OL's fault. That's why the Ravens, you know, went out and found a new starting RB for 2019.

Imagine you can’t comprehend that the preseason ranking was an unbiased account of the anticipated talent of the unit going into the season, particularly because OL “talent” doesn't have game by game stats to be measured by. It’s an annual analysis that encompasses both Flacco AND Lamar behind it, however the goal is analyzing the talent PRIOR TO LAMAR STARTING.

So imagine me using the preseason ranking, the previous season ranking, AND the 2018 rushing stats for the current season BEFORE LAMAR STARTED, to make my argument... when you use stats that include Lamar’s impact into the final product... LOL. Haven’t you ever heard that the word can’t be in the definition of itself. You’re attempting to define the talent prior to Lamar by basing it on stats tainted by Lamar’s impact at starting QB. Like how does that even make sense?

2 hours ago, Archimedes said:

What a beyond obnoxious, and ridiculous attempt to play "gotcha", when I was trying to give you a small concession. Flacco still sucked and drug the offense as a whole down. But since I said he may have been bottom 8 instead of bottom 5, you're going "see, you were wrong about Flacco, you're wrong about the OL!!!!" OK, mental note taken, you're not mature enough to handle subtle points, so I won't be giving you anymore concessions. 

You’re right it was obnoxious, I should have simply allowed you to change the goalpost without calling it out. Then you could claim that such was where the goalposts stood all along and try and gaslight by claiming your position was never that Flacco was a bottom 5 QB and that him being a bottom 10 QB was what made the OL, WRs, and RBs look so bad.

Now if you were truly trying to concede the point, fine. Then it should have conversely been easy for you to answer that perhaps the talent of the Ravens weren’t as good as you had anticipated. Boom, argument done.

2 hours ago, Archimedes said:

1. Evaluating an OL, based off the production of bad RBs make no sense. How do you know their production wouldn't have been even worse playing behind a worse offensive line? You already admitted that they were bad players.

There, is that simple enough for you.

2. Their OL wasn't "considered good", it was good.

This here is the nail in your coffin ⚰️ for your argument. Kudos to @HTTRDynasty for posting this earlier this year.

Quote

Position	Top-10 WAR Average
QB	2.5134
WR	0.701
S	0.6039
CB	0.5172
TE	0.3426
IOL	0.3212
OT	0.2968
ED	0.2783
LB	0.2762
RB	0.2166
DI	0.1868

1. So what we know is that the Wins Above Replacement in the OL is noticeably superior for the WAR of a RB. The OL impact is felt in the run and pass offense. The pass offense contributes highly to the WAR value, however let’s reasonably assume that 35% of the OT and IOL WAR value (0.2163) is due to their importance to the run game?

If the team has a top 10 run blocking OL, as you claim they were BEFORE Lamar started, then it would prove more important to the running game (total yards and YPC) than having a top 10 RB towards those same markers because part of a RBs WAR value would also come from its importance in the passing game. Even if we graciously (to your argument) assumed 90% of the RB value (.1949) came from the running game impact, it would be less important than the OL as a group in producing a good running game.

2. So if the Ravens were a good OL and if the Ravens had a top 10 run blocking OL prior to Lamar starting and WAR holds that their value respective to a replaceable level OL is far more important then the replaceable level RB talent, how do you explain the Ravens rushing offense being ranked bottom 3 prior to Lamar starting?

Do you reject WAR? Do you reject that the OL is more important to the run game than the RB? Clearly their must be some LOGICAL reasoning to explain the bottom 3 result prior to Lamar. Perhaps you have some groundbreaking studies that you would like to provide to explain this phenomena?

Edited August 4, 2020 by diamondbull424

[Archimedes]

50 minutes ago, wackywabbit said:

The offense is what it is. It's a mediocre group right now without Lamar. If you plugged in a mediocre QB I would expect mediocre results this coming season. We know what a mediocre offense is. We've seen it for a long time. Flacco (before he got hurt) was not a terribad QB like you making him out to be to tell your narrative. He was the epitome of mediocre. You can have great players on great units like we had with Ray Lewis and Ed Reed on some great defenses. They were still legends. But, that's not always the case. Newton had an MVP season with a mediocre supporting cast too. It's not unprecedented.

If you want to stare at the Ravens offensive group long enough to convince yourself it's a top 10 supporting cast, then see what you want to see. The tackle duo is very good. Andrews is very good. The receivers are a bottom 5 group. The interior O-line is just above replacement level. The backs are products of Lamar and the offense (unless Dobbins is special, but there is a reason we drafted Dobbins). 

The issue is you’re not dealing facts, you’re just pushing narratives, while acting like you have some kind of authoritative football knowledge (you don’t). Cam has nothing to do with this conversation. Since you hate stats let’s try this.

Considering that the supporting cast was built by a combination of Ozzie Newsome, John Harbaugh, and DeCosta, all of whom’s football knowledge I put above yours, I’m going to go ahead and NOT assume they were mediocre.

But feel free to keep deluding yourself into thinking your offense was all Lamar.

[wackywabbit]

4 minutes ago, Archimedes said:

The issue is you’re not dealing facts, you’re just pushing narratives, while acting like you have some kind of authoritative football knowledge (you don’t). Cam has nothing to do with this conversation. Since you hate stats let’s try this.

Considering that the supporting cast was built by a combination of Ozzie Newsome, John Harbaugh, and DeCosta, all of whom’s football knowledge I put above yours, I’m going to go ahead and NOT assume they were mediocre.

But feel free to keep deluding yourself into thinking your offense was all Lamar.

You are right. That group could never put together a mediocre offense. Clearly you are the authoritative Ravens' expert.

[Breesus mode]

God, Mahomes Vs Lamar is already more annoying than Brady Vs Peyton