NFLN Top 100 Players of 2020

[AngusMcFife]

2 minutes ago, Archimedes said:

I most certainly do understand cause and effect. I also understand narratives.

Fans on Andy Reid before Mahomes: “He’s a playoff choker who’ll never win the big one because he falls in love with the pass!!!!!”

Fans on Andy Reid after Mahomes: “OMG he’s one of the greatest offensive minds the game has ever seen!!!! What QB couldn’t possibly have success in his offense!!!!!”

The reality was Reid is and has always been an elite head coach, HOF caliber even. Unlike you, I’m not insecure about my QB so I don’t have to downplay the coaches and supporting cast.

He has???

Mahomes vs Lamar best season: QBR - Passer Rating - ANY/A - DVOA - PFF grade

Mahomes

80.3 - 113.8 - 8.89 - 39.9 - 92.9

Lamar

81.3 - 113.3 - 8.18 - 34.9 - 90.1

Mahomes vs Lamar 2nd best season: QBR - Passer Rating - ANY/A - DVOA - PFF grade

Mahomes

76.3 - 105.3 - 8.33 - 30 - 90.2

Lamar

42.6 - 84.5 - 5.99 - -9.2 - (couldn’t find it)

Fairly liberal definition of “better” you’re using.

 

The fact that you are comparing Lamar vs Mahomes numbers and not including rushing stats tells me all I need to know about your football knowledge. What a joke.

Lamar's second best season... LOL. Yeah he didn't start until 9 games into his rookie year. Meanwhile Mahomes couldn't even beat out Alex Smith for the job his rookie year, despite coming into the league 1/2 year older than Lamar. Cherry picking is for losers. Try it on someone stupid and maybe your argument will be convincing.   

[Archimedes]

1 minute ago, AngusMcFife said:

The fact that you are comparing Lamar vs Mahomes numbers and not including rushing stats tells me all I need to know about your football knowledge. What a joke.

Lamar's second best season... LOL. Yeah he didn't start until 9 games into his rookie year. Meanwhile Mahomes couldn't even beat out Alex Smith for the job his rookie year, despite coming into the league 1/2 year older than Lamar. Cherry picking is for losers. Try it on someone stupid and maybe your argument will be convincing.   

PFF grades and QBR account for rushing. You’re mocking my football knowledge, when you’re comparing Lamar to Mahomes, something 80% of football fans would disagree with you on. Or would you like to conduct a poll on this site? You then had the nerve to bring up Eli and Flacco to downplay Mahomes accomplishments. Worse yet, you invoke Peyton freaking Manning to try and defend Lamar. Physician heal thyself.

So just to be clear, regular season matters.... But only when you say so? Maybe you shouldn’t make blatantly FALSE statements in the hope that no one will call you on it. Like your False claim that Lamar has been better in the RS. He hasn’t. Or YOU bringing up W-L record to prop up Lamar, and then telling me to give it a rest. 🙄

[SwiftPride]

Lamar looks better in purple than Mahomes looks in red

[kingseanjohn]

2 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

Lamar accomplished as much if not more than Mahomes did in his second year, and Lamar is younger. 

Rarely do I actually lol. But this here is one of those times.

2nd year Mahomes was MVP and had 5k yards and 50 TD. He was a Dee Ford offsides from going to the Super Bowl. Lamar was one and done again in the playoffs.

Unles you mean his 2nd year starting, in which case he won the Superbowl and Superbowl MVP.

1 hour ago, AngusMcFife said:

Okay let's talk numbers. The 2019 Ravens offense was objectively better than any Mahomes led Chiefs offense,

The 2018 Chiefs are the 3rd best offense all time. The only thing  I'd say the Ravens had more of is QB rushing yards and inconsistent throws.

45 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

The Ravens 2019 offense was also better than the 2018 Chiefs offense, when Mahomes wasn't injured. 

Now I know you're just trolling.

Edited August 1, 2020 by kingseanjohn

[ET80]

14 hours ago, Counselor said:

17 hours ago, 43M said:

In fairness, even most nerds who never played a sport in their lives wouldnt be dumb enough to call Josh Dobbs a franchise QB caliber talent.  

I should probably doing something modish about this but I have to be true and honest to myself. I can’t stop laughing. 

Ditto.

[AngusMcFife]

1 hour ago, Archimedes said:

PFF grades and QBR account for rushing.

Well based on what you just listed, Lamar's QBR is better than Mahomes. Thanks for backing up my point! Based on the metric you want to use, Lamar can be considered better despite inferior coaching and supporting cast. 

Quote

You’re mocking my football knowledge, when you’re comparing Lamar to Mahomes, something 80% of football fans would disagree with you on.

That's funny because when NFL players were asked to compare Lamar and Mahomes they picked Lamar. I understand there is something called recency bias, where you are apt to place more emphasis on recent events rather than look at a wider body of evidence. I get it, Mahomes just won the Super Bowl, everyone thinks he's the greatest, etc. But to dismiss Lamar even though he's younger, has one less year in the league, has worse supporting cast, worse offensive coaching, seems like a mistake. 

Mahomes stepped into an already great offense and was undeniably great. But Lamar stepped in a mediocre offense and turned it into something great. To me it isn't obvious at all which is more impressive. 

[AngusMcFife]

When Matt Moore started for Mahomes in 2019, he goes:

65% completions
330 yards/game
4/0 TD/INT 

It's just such an incredibly loaded, well-coached offense, it's hard to evaluate how good Mahomes is versus how much the scheme accomplishes. 

[AngusMcFife]

After Lamar lost to the Titans in Jan 2020, he was 0-2 in the playoffs at the age of 23 years, 4 days old.

When Pat Mahomes was 23 years, 4 days old, he had 0 playoff wins as well (0-0). 

People are punishing Lamar for his playoff record, but not considering he is so advanced at such a young age, that other QBs haven't even been to playoffs so young. In 2019 he was the youngest QB EVER to start a playoff game. 

I agree Lamar's playoff record is the one thing holding him back, but the fact that he has made the playoffs 2x at such a young age can only be a good thing. 

[Archimedes]

50 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

After Lamar lost to the Titans in Jan 2020, he was 0-2 in the playoffs at the age of 23 years, 4 days old.

When Pat Mahomes was 23 years, 4 days old, he had 0 playoff wins as well (0-0). 

People are punishing Lamar for his playoff record, but not considering he is so advanced at such a young age, that other QBs haven't even been to playoffs so young. In 2019 he was the youngest QB EVER to start a playoff game. 

I agree Lamar's playoff record is the one thing holding him back, but the fact that he has made the playoffs 2x at such a young age can only be a good thing. 

I don’t know that I’ve seen a more blatantly desperate attempt to cherry pick stats, by basing their accomplishments on their age instead of a side by side comparison of the last 2 seasons. One guy is 24 and the other is 23. You’re complaining about recency bias while literally trying to ignore what Mahomes did in the 2018 RS. Let’s stick to last year specifically then. On a per game basis last year, Lamar and Mahomes (both playing on loaded teams) were pretty comparable in how good they were. Mahomes had the slightly better PFF grade, Lamar had the slightly better QBR. Mahomes accounted for more yds/game, Lamar accounted for more tds/game. Mahomes missed 3 games though, so factoring that in Lamar had the overall better RS, while Mahomes was way better in the playoffs.

You want to talk about what the Chiefs did when Mahomes was out? Can I bring up the last game of the season what the Ravens when Lamar sat? I’m sure you’ll have some reason for why that doesn’t count either. See, I’m not insecure enough to try to downplay how good the Chiefs supporting cast and coach are to boost Mahomes. We have a great coach and team around him. Lamar has the same thing in Baltimore.

[VanS]

17 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

You realize the irony of this statement, right? You’re going to sit here and accuse most people of sticking to their pre-draft guns, when you’re doing the exact same thing? But I suppose there’s no irony because you’re right and everyone’s wrong, shrug.

Actually I'm defending the fact his peers voted him the 87th best player in the NFL.  My pre-draft take was that he would be a future Hall of Famer.  So my opinion of Allen is way higher than he's proven thus far.  What I am doing is not trying to validate my take on Allen.  I am validating the take HIS PEERS have of him.  You can dig up all the stats you want.  At the end of the day the players believe he's a really good QB as evidenced by his ranking on the Top 100 list.  And I'm more than happy to side with the guys who compete against him on the football field while you can side with fantasy football nerds who are going crazy online at his ranking.

[VanS]

17 hours ago, Archimedes said:

Cool story. And John Harbaugh, who is Lamar Jackson’s coach (you know, the guy you claim is clearly number one) actually won a SB with Joe Flacco as his QB. Help me out here, is that good? It sure seems like it.
 

Tom Brady, who is nearly unanimously viewed as the GOAT (justifiably), spent his career playing for a guy who is a top 2 coach all time (I think Bill is the GOAT coach too FTR). Great coaches don’t diminish great QBs, no matter how you slice. 
 

You’re talking about “obvious truths”, but really you’re just being a contrarian. Like, I get why people might try to argue Russell Wilson vs Mahomes. Arguing Lamar Jackson is just arguing to argue at this point, and that’s no disrespect to LJ, who I think was deserving of the MVP. But he has yet to accomplish enough to be compared to Mahomes.

First of all, you should know who you are arguing against.  I am well known on this site for not being the biggest proponent of Tom Brady.  I don't view him as the GOAT (or anywhere close to it) because of the exact reason you stated.  I attribute most of his success to Bill Belichick.  So I do have a history of ranking players based on the context of their situation rather than just praising their end results.

With regard to Harbaugh and Lamar I definitely acknowledge the fact the Ravens are a great organization with a great head coach.  Lamar definitely went to a team that would maximize his abilities.   Just a few months ago I was being attacked by some Ravens fans and football stat nerds on here for suggesting Michael Vick was arguably more talented than Lamar Jackson despite Lamar's greater success thus far in the NFL because of the situation he was in vis-a-vis Michael Vick back in the early 2000s.  So once again, I have a history of placing players success in context of their situation even if its a player who I like and have touted before their respective draft.

FTR I also liked Mahomes before the 2017 draft.  He was one of 3 QBs I projected to be a Pro Bowl caliber talent.  Now I never saw him becoming a future first ballot Hall of Famer.  But its not like I have some agenda against him.  I think he's a hell of a QB who will dominate the league for years to come.  I just think people are overrating him right now by assuming he's the clear-cut best QB in the league or in the debate for the GOAT.

[Soko]

16 minutes ago, VanS said:

Actually I'm defending the fact his peers voted him the 87th best player in the NFL.  My pre-draft take was that he would be a future Hall of Famer.  So my opinion of Allen is way higher than he's proven thus far.  What I am doing is not trying to validate my take on Allen.  I am validating the take HIS PEERS have of him.  You can dig up all the stats you want.  At the end of the day the players believe he's a really good QB as evidenced by his ranking on the Top 100 list.  And I'm more than happy to side with the guys who compete against him on the football field while you can side with fantasy football nerds who are going crazy online at his ranking.

Read what you want to read. I never said anything about Allen as a player. 

Just pointing out your obviously false statements and backing it up with facts, that’s all. Predict whatever you want, but the Bills O was massively outperformed by the defense and your statement about “Allen giving the defense rest” proved to be...bs.

[VanS]

9 hours ago, Nightime said:

Lamar “carried” 12 Pro Bowlers (coached by a SB winning HC in Harbaugh) to a Divisional Round playoff loss. People forget that the Ravens were being considered one of the greatest teams of all time until they lost. Yet Lamar is the only player to ever be No. 1 on the Top 100 List without a single playoff win to his name

Those 12 guys only became Pro Bowlers after an epic 14-2 regular season that nobody saw coming.  Unlike you who is going on what happened at the end of the season, I am rating Lamar based on my pre-season expectations for the Ravens.  Before the 2019 season nobody saw the Ravens as an all-time team.  They weren't even projected to win their division.  There were questions about whether they would even make the playoffs given how much they lost on defense from the year before when they were powered by their defense moreso than the offense.  Then in 2019 they transform into an offensive juggernaut thanks to Lamar Jackson's unique talent and turn in that all-time great regular season.

Those 12 guys became Pro Bowlers because of Lamar.  This wasn't a case of Lamar Jackson walking into some star studded team and benefiting from his supporting cast.  Lamar Jackson's unique talent was the catalyst to that all-time great regular season.   And its why I am saying I would take him over every other QB in the NFL right now if I knew for certain he wasn't gonna get hurt. 

[VanS]

7 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

Poor analysis. Many of those 12 pro bowlers were just average players until they played next to Lamar. Lamar is so good he transformed a mediocre offense into one of the greatest regular season offenses of all time. 

In contrast, KC was the 4th best offense in 2017 (according to DVOA) . Mahomes just made them slightly better (1st in 2018, 3rd in 2019). He already had a great offensive unit, he just made it better.  

Ravens were a middle of the pack offense in 2018, record of 4-5. Then Lamar went 6-1 and 14-2 with those same players. 7th greatest offense of all time in 2019 (according to DVOA). Mahomes never dominated the regular season like that, and he has better players and offensive coaches around him. 

Thank You for citing those numbers. 

The Pro-Mahomes crowd just doesn't want to place things in context.  They just want to compare the end result.  Both are great players but its obvious Lamar Jackson is carrying his supporting cast to heights they normally wouldn't reach on their own while Mahomes is benefiting from a great supporting cast that would be just fine without him.  Obviously he makes them better but not to the extent Lamar does.

Just look back at their college careers for more proof.  Both were 3-star recruits that went to mediocre Power 5 programs.  Lamar Jackson had Louisville at one point ranked in the Top 3 of the country and being discussed as a potential playoff team while Mahomes never really had Texas Tech in the playoff discussion.  Lamar's skill set is so unique and dominant he can take mediocre talent to unprecedented heights.  Its why I would take him over any other QB in the NFL right now without hesitation if injuries weren't a factor.  The injury risk is the only reason I even entertain the thought of another QB being in the same class as him. 

[rocky_rams]

22 hours ago, VanS said:

I have Lamar, Russ, and Deshaun right there with him.  If you told me injuries could be turned off in real life like a video game, I would take Lamar Jackson #1 overall without hestitation.  He's the most impactful individual talent in the NFL.  His abilities as a runner can turn any offense elite.  I don't think Mahomes has the talent to carry subpar players the way Lamar can.

The only hesitation with Lamar is the fact when you run as much as he does you risk injury.  With that said, he has proven to be more durable than Mahomes thus far in their careers.

Russ is the best QB in the league. He makes the playoffs with an offensively challenged HC and a bunch of no names as receivers. 

Mahomes is great. He’s right there with Russ. They are a tier (or 2) above Watson. 

Lamar, although he had a great season last season, isn’t even on the same planet as the QBs mentioned above. His scheme was so simple and Lamar relies way too much on his athleticism. On film he doesnt  have any where near the same qualities as the other QBs mentioned above. He’s a great football player but he isn’t as sharp a QB as the guys you mentioned