Fire Pace and Nagy

[AZBearsFan]

4 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

The Bears can't start giving up draft picks for coaches. That's complete lunacy. And complete lunacy is NOT what we need right now. 

We tend to disagree on a lot of stuff, but this is not one of them. I’d love Payton, but we can’t trade premium draft capital for him. 

[WindyCity]

4 hours ago, Madmike90 said:

Let's say we give up a 1st for Payton and Fields throws for 4,000 yards 40 TDs and 10 INTs you're saying it wouldn't be worth it? Sean Payton would have more of an impact on this team overall than any rookie player could.

I agree with this. 2nd most important person on game day.

[AZBearsFan]

10 minutes ago, WindyCity said:

I agree with this. 2nd most important person on game day.

But what if one of the other coaches we can get for him without giving up any draft capital can get him to throw 35 TD and 10 INT? 

[AZBearsFan]

12 minutes ago, WindyCity said:

I agree with this. 2nd most important person on game day.

Agree on the play caller‘s game day importance though. 

[Sugashane]

29 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

But what if one of the other coaches we can get for him without giving up any draft capital can get him to throw 35 TD and 10 INT? 

Outside of McDaniels I just don't know who I would bet could do it. Day isnt going to have a top draft class year after year and crazy talent here, Harbaugh will develop but puts a premium on running so IDK who he puts as the one developing Fields, Leftwich and Moore drop away from top 3 skill groups in the NFL to come to this cluster, Roman might but I think he keeps the same style and has no HC experience, etc. 

 

Payton is at least a proven HC and offensive genius. If I knew he would be the one coaching for the next 10 years I'd make the move. 50 years of trash QB play is enough, I'd happily invest 2 firsts to draft a franchise talent and trade another first to get the HC that WILL develop him. I might have to trade back a few times to try and get more young talent the next few years but 3 firsts for 15 years of a franchise QB is a no brainer to me. (Especially as the armchair GM with nothing at stake)

[WindyCity]

I know I think less of George and the McCaskey family as many of you.

But promoting Ryan Pace would be an all time un-defendable move. 
 

That press conference may be worse than last years.

[AZBearsFan]

35 minutes ago, WindyCity said:

I know I think less of George and the McCaskey family as many of you.

But promoting Ryan Pace would be an all time un-defendable move. 
 

That press conference may be worse than last years.

Any move that keeps Ryan Pace employed by the Bears in a role other than GM that doesn’t have him transitioning to a role that is WHOLLY unaffiliated with the team operation will be some level of half measure IMO. You can use this year’s draft class and its potential to defend keeping him as GM, but if he’s out as GM he should be fully out of the football operation. Anything else is an unnecessary (and likely damaging) hedge. And to be clear, that argument for keeping him is a BAD argument that ignores the many failures in the whole 7-year picture on both macro and micro levels, and is an argument with which I wholeheartedly disagree.

If they like him too much personally to outright fire him, and that’s the only reason, then grossly overpay him to be President of Facilities Management at Halas Hall or something. Let him work with the design and architecture team on the Arlington Heights project (what they’ve done with the new HH is awesome). Just keep him away from the roster. 

[dll2000]

I think George would really like to keep Pace.  For these reasons:

*He communicates well with McCaskey and Philips and keeps them in loop on decisions in a way they appreciate.  He collaborates with them.  

*The staff at Halas likes him.

*The scouts, coaches etc. like him.  In other words, the building they work in day to day is running smoothly.  

*They also like him personally.   They like hanging out with him socially.  That matters to any human.  

*They think on balance, compared to prior GMs he does a good job.  A lot of his draft picks and FAs have hit.  

We make fun of him for a poorly run org., but that doesn't mean he is dumb.   He knows fan base is not happy at moment with end results.  

He knows keeping Pace at this point will rebound on him in form of direct criticism unless Pace suddenly enjoys a lot of success in near future, like next year.   Not just draft picks hitting, but actual Ws and playoff wins.   

It is evident he does not like personal criticism from media and fans.  He usually makes a move when fans get really angry at him.  

 So while he wants to keep Pace, my guess is he doesn't.   He gets a new GM and coach and its back to honey moon for a few years.  

 But he may try to split the baby by giving Pace another short deal and firing Nagy.   I think Nagy is gone regardless.  

I think that would be an awful decision, the ultimate goal is build a well run org. like Pittsburgh or NE or SF of 80s.  You don't build a program throwing random guys into jobs - one year its a GM, one year its a coach or coordinator and just hoping something good happens.

 But this is what Bears have always done in past, that is why it is a poorly run org.   

If he is going to make that choice, that Pace is his program builder - I think Pace has shown he can't do it and it would be a terrible decision - he should commit to him for 5 years or something.   Then you just hope Pace has learned from mistakes.   

Lame ducks trying to save their jobs can do catastrophic damage that last years.

 

[dll2000]

I always want nice things, but there is little thing called price that stops me from having all that I want.   

I'd give up a first for Payton.   A 2023 first.

I'd do that trade.

He is a proven commodity and you have a rookie QB.    Coaches are worth more in football than any other sport.  

I'd rather have McDaniels and keep my first rounder.   But if choice is a college coach or an unproven coordinator and Payton and first rounder - give me Payton.

That being said, I think NO would ask for more than one first  though and I am not willing to pay more.  

For comparison, Raiders got 2 firsts and 2 seconds for Gruden from Tampa Bay. 

They also won a SB after that trade, so there is that.   But would they not have won one with Tony Dungy?   They had been stockpiling high end talent before Gruden got there.

  Coaching matters a lot, but you can't win without talent either.  Payton doesn't win when he doesn't have talent on field, just like everyone else.

 

 

[AZBearsFan]

1 hour ago, dll2000 said:

If he is going to make that choice, that Pace is his program builder - I think Pace has shown he can't do it and it would be a terrible decision - he should commit to him for 5 years or something.   Then you just hope Pace has learned from mistakes.   

Lame ducks trying to save their jobs can do catastrophic damage that last years.

Exactly this - well said. If Pace is your guy, then Pace has to be your guy. It can’t be year-to-year because that’ll lead to rash, self-preservation type decisions that eschew concern for the long term (see 2021 Nagy).

It shouldn’t be the decision, but if it is, it’s gotta be all the way. Not only does that give Pace the best chance to succeed but it also gives him his best chance to get a quality HC candidate in place.

That said, I just don’t see how they can keep him after they so clearly tied he and Nagy at the hip last January. How do you even sell that to yourself if you’re George? Everything was collaborative. If so, then they have to succeed or fail together. 

No matter how this plays out, if it’s anything other than a full blown house cleaning I sincerely hope the reporters ask all of the hard questions to George. No free passes. The fan base deserves answers. 

[beardown3231]

2 hours ago, dll2000 said:

I think George would really like to keep Pace.  For these reasons:

*He communicates well with McCaskey and Philips and keeps them in loop on decisions in a way they appreciate.  He collaborates with them.  

*The staff at Halas likes him.

*The scouts, coaches etc. like him.  In other words, the building they work in day to day is running smoothly.  

*They also like him personally.   They like hanging out with him socially.  That matters to any human.  

*They think on balance, compared to prior GMs he does a good job.  A lot of his draft picks and FAs have hit.  

We make fun of him for a poorly run org., but that doesn't mean he is dumb.   He knows fan base is not happy at moment with end results.  

He knows keeping Pace at this point will rebound on him in form of direct criticism unless Pace suddenly enjoys a lot of success in near future, like next year.   Not just draft picks hitting, but actual Ws and playoff wins.   

It is evident he does not like personal criticism from media and fans.  He usually makes a move when fans get really angry at him.  

 So while he wants to keep Pace, my guess is he doesn't.   He gets a new GM and coach and its back to honey moon for a few years.  

 But he may try to split the baby by giving Pace another short deal and firing Nagy.   I think Nagy is gone regardless.  

I think that would be an awful decision, the ultimate goal is build a well run org. like Pittsburgh or NE or SF of 80s.  You don't build a program throwing random guys into jobs - one year its a GM, one year its a coach or coordinator and just hoping something good happens.

 But this is what Bears have always done in past, that is why it is a poorly run org.   

If he is going to make that choice, that Pace is his program builder - I think Pace has shown he can't do it and it would be a terrible decision - he should commit to him for 5 years or something.   Then you just hope Pace has learned from mistakes.   

Lame ducks trying to save their jobs can do catastrophic damage that last years.

 

I don't think it can be said much better - except the free agents part. Most of Pace's free agents have sucked

[AZBearsFan]

1 hour ago, beardown3231 said:

I don't think it can be said much better - except the free agents part. Most of Pace's free agents have sucked

Yeah, remember when Markus Wheaton and Kendall Wright were supposed to improve our passing game in 2017, and then Wheaton had 3 catches in 11 games and Wright led the team in receiving with a whopping 614 yards? Oh and Dontrelle Inman too. Or Eddie Royal and Marc Mariani in 2015 (Royal in 2016 too)? Or when the most talented FA Pace has brought in, a WR in his prime, while in the midst of trying to develop a young QB, was so disrespected financially by Pace after outperforming his FA contract that he spent most of 2021 basically going through the motions and biding his time until he can get out of town? This is fun. 

But hey, Darnell Mooney seems to be the new Johnny Knox and Cole Kmet looks to be a healthier Zach Miller, so I guess we’re cool. All is well. Everything is fine. I’m sure people will be thrilled to stay the course. 

[Sugashane]

1 hour ago, AZBearsFan said:

 But hey, Darnell Mooney seems to be the new Johnny Knox and Cole Kmet looks to be a healthier Zach Miller, so I guess we’re cool. All is well. Everything is fine. I’m sure people will be thrilled to stay the course. 

No fair! Miller actually existed when they got near the red zone. 

[CBears019]

Olin Kreutz was on Parkins and Spiegel earlier on the score. He said that when Harry Hiestand came back as OL Coach they offered Olin and assistant OLC position……..for $15 per hour.  No joke.

[Heinz D.]

8 hours ago, WindyCity said:

But promoting Ryan Pace would be an all time un-defendable move. 

It would be dumb, yeah. But hardly as ridiculous as you're making it sound. 

He's made Bears president I can live with it--provided he's simply another voice, when it comes to personnel. He can pick the GM...but the GM has to have normal control and responsibilities. 

6 hours ago, dll2000 said:

He is a proven commodity and you have a rookie QB.    Coaches are worth more in football than any other sport.  

Not only do the Bears need their draft picks, but the dude is 58. 

6 hours ago, dll2000 said:

I'd rather have McDaniels and keep my first rounder.   But if choice is a college coach or an unproven coordinator and Payton and first rounder - give me Payton.

Based on his experiences in the head coaching realm, I don't think you can say McDaniels is more "proven" than Moore or Leftwich. 

18 hours ago, Sugashane said:

Outside of McDaniels I just don't know who I would bet could do it. Day isnt going to have a top draft class year after year and crazy talent here, Harbaugh will develop but puts a premium on running so IDK who he puts as the one developing Fields, Leftwich and Moore drop away from top 3 skill groups in the NFL to come to this cluster, Roman might but I think he keeps the same style and has no HC experience, etc. 

You don't think that Leftwich or Moore would leave their current positions to become head coach of the Bears?