oakdb36 Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 If the numbers i saw are correct, Littleton had missed 14 tackles through 7 games and ended up with 17 missed tackles. Seems the improvement in the second half of the season is real. Surprisingly, his coverage stats aren't that different from what they were with the Rams. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LittCo01.htm Main issue is the YAC allowed which is probably a direct result of all those missed tackles. But he was also paid for his ability to make plays and he made none as a Raider. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimkelly02 Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 1 hour ago, oakdb36 said: If the numbers i saw are correct, Littleton had missed 14 tackles through 7 games and ended up with 17 missed tackles. Seems the improvement in the second half of the season is real. Surprisingly, his coverage stats aren't that different from what they were with the Rams. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LittCo01.htm Main issue is the YAC allowed which is probably a direct result of all those missed tackles. But he was also paid for his ability to make plays and he made none as a Raider. I’m willing to give Littleton a pass for this year. He played very poorly but did play better without PG. I don’t think he’s every going to be what he was with the Rams... but if we play him at WILL and use him as a zone coverage LB like he was with LAR I think he’ll be 85% of what he was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimkelly02 Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 On 1/20/2021 at 2:11 AM, agarcia34 said: Dude literally takes the success Littleton had with the Rams and places it on Aaron Donald. Like it was Donald that was out there in pass coverage or making the play on the ball. Like Littleton worked his *** off as an undrafted FA DE make the switch to LB and made his own success. We saw multiple FAs come in that played good in other schemes with their prior teams look like complete ****. But hey they suck but coaching is not the issue, because it’s cool to rag on the players. Your right I never understood this logic of thought that says a DT should get all the credit for plays by a LB or DB. Obviously Donald’s pressure on CERTAIN plays MIGHT have lead to a slightly early throw but CL still had to make the play. On every positive play a defense makes there are many players that do things that cause a positive result. It’s such an absolutely overly simplistic viewpoint to suggest AD caused everything good to happen, and no one else gets any credit. the reality is Littleton isn’t great at taking on blocks.... he does best when he can flow freely to the ball. That DL did protect him from IOLs a lot but not always. Playing him at WILL and not SAM will really help him. Our DL won’t help him as much as LAR’s did but he’s still a very good player who can be very successful. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darbsk Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 7 hours ago, Rolni said: But is he worth 20M? Yeah he had 11,5 sacks in this last season, but before that 7 was his highest in 2016. He was a really good prospect coming out, but he basically has this lone elite season as a pro. I would be really anxious if we give out that much money to a guy, who was never consistent as a pro before... I would rather pay a guy like Yannick, who is a consistent 8-10 sack guy since he arrived in the league and also a sure system fit. Also Yannick could be cheaper by a solid margin... This is a tricky one! Yannick will be cheaper and is probably more 'proven' as a consistent pass rusher but Williams is a fit at our (IMO) biggest need, pass rushing interior. If they both got 8 sacks say, and they both applied similar amounts of pressure and hurries then I think the interior production is of more value as it helps our existing edge guys more.........how much more value is the big question........ I'd probably go to just around 17 to 18m for a guy like Williams but getting drawn into a bidding war and paying 21 or 22 would seem quite risky. How much would you pay for Yannick?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfrey13 Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 2 minutes ago, Darbsk said: This is a tricky one! Yannick will be cheaper and is probably more 'proven' as a consistent pass rusher but Williams is a fit at our (IMO) biggest need, pass rushing interior. If they both got 8 sacks say, and they both applied similar amounts of pressure and hurries then I think the interior production is of more value as it helps our existing edge guys more.........how much more value is the big question........ I'd probably go to just around 17 to 18m for a guy like Williams but getting drawn into a bidding war and paying 21 or 22 would seem quite risky. How much would you pay for Yannick?? For the same production as a 3T I would give him significantly less. Getting the same pressure up the middle, especially for us, is twice as valuable. I would much rather sign the DT and focus on getting a SLB then giving out $15-20 on the DE. The amount of improvement for the dollar is not there. Now the amount of improvement we would get for the interior I could not calculate because I would have to divide by zero. I would not spend more than $15 unless we feel Crosby can be moved somewhere else and still be effective. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 7 hours ago, Rolni said: But is he worth 20M? Yeah he had 11,5 sacks in this last season, but before that 7 was his highest in 2016. He was a really good prospect coming out, but he basically has this lone elite season as a pro. I would be really anxious if we give out that much money to a guy, who was never consistent as a pro before... I would rather pay a guy like Yannick, who is a consistent 8-10 sack guy since he arrived in the league and also a sure system fit. Also Yannick could be cheaper by a solid margin... I think interior pass rush is more important. I believe L. Williams could slip inside and help out Crosby and Ferrell/Rookie/FA. I think if he can continue to have a similar amount of impact as he had with the Gaints then he is absolutely worth the money. Cut two players (T. Brown and T. Williams) and the money is there. If we can do it, then I hope we sign him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 On 1/20/2021 at 4:22 AM, big_palooka said: No. I'm saying that those players were all products of more talented defenses before arriving with the Raiders. They went from playing with star players to playing with a talentless roster in Vegas. They were role players on good defenses before joining the Raiders and having bigger expectation thrown on them. Yup. I brought this up earlier as well. Lamarcus Joyner: Was terrible as a slot CB for the Rams early in his career and admittedly hated playing the position full time. He had his best two years under Wade Phillips when he played FS full time on a defense that featured guys like Donald, Suh, Talib, JJ3, Brockers, etc. And we pigeon holed him into a NCB role because he supposedly didn't have the size or range to be a safety in Guenther's system. Carl Nassib: Had solid pass rushing production for the first two years of his career in Tampa Bay before we signed him. But he played on a stacked defensive line, especially in his final season there that featured other guys like JPP, Vea, Suh, and Barrett. We paid him like a guy that would come in and be a consistent pass rusher/starting caliber player. Nick Kwit: Was a backup LB on a top 5 defense playing behind a very good DL in Chicago. Although he is one of the few FA's that has kinda panned out. Cory Littleton: Played at a really high level for the Rams but was just a pawn in the Rams elite defense that was stacked with talent at all three levels. Phillips used him in a WLB role behind an elite DL while Guenther tried to pigeon hole him into a SLB behind a weak DL here. I still have hope for him though as he did flash a little towards the end of the season. Maliek Collins: Flashed in Dallas but was just a pawn in a top 10 defense for Dallas over the last two seasons and wasn't a full time starter/player for them. We expected him to come into a worse scheme surrounded by worse players and become a dominant force. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 5 hours ago, oakdb36 said: But he was also paid for his ability to make plays and he made none as a Raider. Yeah in his last two seasons with the Rams he had 7.5 sacks, 15 TFL, 9 QB hits, 2 FF, 5 INT, 22 PD, and 9 QB hits. For us this season he had 0 sacks, 4 TFL, 0 QB hits, 0 FF, 0 INT, 0 PD, and 0 QB hits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 8 hours ago, Rolni said: But is he worth 20M? He was a really good prospect coming out, but he basically has this lone elite season as a pro. In 2016 he had 68 tackles, 7 sacks, 11 TFL, 19 QB hits, and 2 FF which led to a Pro Bowl appearance. In 2018 he had 42 tackles, 5 sacks, 11 TFL, and 20 QB hits. Even after his worst year in 2019 the Giants felt confident enough in his abilities to hit him with the franchise tag and pay him $16.1M and it paid off big time for them. Another thing to consider with him, IIRC he has always been a 3-4 DE for both the Giants/Jets while he'd be a 4-3 DT for us which I think fits his skillset better. He'll be 27 at the start of next season and is just now entering his prime. We paid Nassib/Mariota almost $20M last season and they made almost zero impact for the team. I'd definitely take a chance on a guy like Williams who has flashed elite ability at one of our biggest positions of need. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 1 hour ago, Darbsk said: How much would you pay for Yannick?? One concern I'd have with signing Yannick is that there have already been some character concerns with him. He publicly called out the Jaguars GM and forced his way out of there. And Minnesota was willing to sell for pennies on the dollar after having him for like 4 games in 2020. If Baltimore moves on from him after this season that'll be 3 teams that have parted ways with him in less than a year. And two of those teams gave up draft capital to acquire him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 3 hours ago, jimkelly02 said: the reality is Littleton isn’t great at taking on blocks.... he does best when he can flow freely to the ball. That DL did protect him from IOLs a lot but not always. Playing him at WILL and not SAM will really help him. Our DL won’t help him as much as LAR’s did but he’s still a very good player who can be very successful. Yeah, Phillips essentially ran a 3-3-5 with Littleton at WLB allowed to roam around and use his speed to make plays while we had him at SLB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakdb36 Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 17 minutes ago, NYRaider said: Carl Nassib: Had solid pass rushing production for the first two years of his career in Tampa Bay before we signed him. But he played on a stacked defensive line, especially in his final season there that featured other guys like JPP, Vea, Suh, and Barrett. We paid him like a guy that would come in and be a consistent pass rusher/starting caliber player. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/N/NassCa00.htm 17 pressures in 2019, 15 pressures in 2020 on 160 less snaps. There's a trend with our DEs not turning pressures into sacks at a high rate. Imo, it has everything to do with no interior pressure. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimkelly02 Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 15 minutes ago, NYRaider said: One concern I'd have with signing Yannick is that there have already been some character concerns with him. He publicly called out the Jaguars GM and forced his way out of there. And Minnesota was willing to sell for pennies on the dollar after having him for like 4 games in 2020. If Baltimore moves on from him after this season that'll be 3 teams that have parted ways with him in less than a year. And two of those teams gave up draft capital to acquire him. And after all that I’m sure if we give him a 4y, 80m deal with 55%+ guaranteed there won’t be any problems (heavy sarcasm)! Several teams have cut their loses and tossed this guy out for pennies on the dollar ..... I’d not only pass on him in FA, I wouldn’t even consider him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimkelly02 Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 3 minutes ago, oakdb36 said: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/N/NassCa00.htm 17 pressures in 2019, 15 pressures in 2020 on 160 less snaps. There's a trend with our DEs not turning pressures into sacks at a high rate. Imo, it has everything to do with no interior pressure. The trend is we don’t get inside pressure at all ANd very generally speaking we have Pass Rushers who aren’t speed rushers capable of winning quickly.... and we rarely have 2 DL win on the same play. Thus, we often see one DL get pressure but the QB is Able to avoid it. good teams have multiple DL apply pressure on a single play and it’s usually the first rusher who pushes the QB into the second rusher’s grasp. this is why I’m so big on adding a 3Tech to get interior pressure and a speed rusher who can win 1v1 on the outside with speed. If we add both you’ll see a higher pressure to sack ratio and far more “cleanup or team” sacks. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darbsk Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 48 minutes ago, jimkelly02 said: The trend is we don’t get inside pressure at all ANd very generally speaking we have Pass Rushers who aren’t speed rushers capable of winning quickly.... and we rarely have 2 DL win on the same play. Thus, we often see one DL get pressure but the QB is Able to avoid it. good teams have multiple DL apply pressure on a single play and it’s usually the first rusher who pushes the QB into the second rusher’s grasp. this is why I’m so big on adding a 3Tech to get interior pressure and a speed rusher who can win 1v1 on the outside with speed. If we add both you’ll see a higher pressure to sack ratio and far more “cleanup or team” sacks. Spot on, this is exactly what I see too. 😀 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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