What to do at QB?

[AnAngryAmerican]

3 minutes ago, champ11 said:

I think just because Paton had an old coach in Minn - doesn't mean Vic is his guy. It's quite literally not, since he didn't bring him in. So that's a guess that may or may not be true - we'll see. I'm not gonna tell you that I'm confident in him making the right moves coaching wise - but I'm not down on it either. Elway brought in both Shurmur and Vic. Feel like it's unfair to make them a trio. 

I do agree about Teddy, though. Obviously has some ties to him. I wouldn't disagree that the coaching staff and FO were probably hoping Teddy would win. But I don't think they would make that call if Drew had played well enough / won over the team. I would assume they are working in their best interest - to win - which I think is also in the best interest of the org overall. 

Elway didn't bring in Shurmur. Vic did. Elway's last real OC hire was Scangarello. Vic and him didn't get along and I think, to his detriment, Elway just said "screw it, get your guy and go win" and that, more than anything else IMO, screwed Lock. People think I'm not critical of Elway, despite ample evidence to the contrary, but the one the biggest mistakes Elway made was not getting Vic and Scags to make it work.

Personally, I think John checked out not long after the Super Bowl 50 win. He got the team back on its feet after the McDisaster, went to two Super Bowls, won one, and then didn't have the fortitude to rebuild it all again especially with Ellis' incessant meddling, the Bowlen kids' lawsuits, the mistakes he made, etc. 

[AnAngryAmerican]

23 minutes ago, champ11 said:

Incorrect. This situation is different than both those years for a few reasons. Want to type it out but I'm at work. Will revisit later. 

Posts above are once again assuming Drew has starter upside because he is young. Who is anyone to say they don't feel there is an answer on Drew? There is a lot of tape on him trying to play football at a high level. It's essentially asking to put a worse product on the field because the fan wishes there is a franchise QB in house. Well...there most likely isn't. 

I'm at work too, no big.

But, no. Drew has made strides. Even with an OC who a) doesn't want him and b) won't coach to his skillset. He's adapted, they couldn't get him out of the building last spring. He's not Paxton Lynch who didn't really care. 

He had how many OCs since Mizzou? Drew has upside because, yes, he's young but also because he has talent and has never been put, or rarely been put, into a scheme the maximizes his talent. I'll say it again, if Vic (age 63) and Rich Scangarello (age 49) could have acted like adults and made things work out this might have been a better outcome for Drew. Elway, as their boss, failed the franchise by not making them work it out. 

And again, maybe Drew just isn't the guy. It's not like he's my cousin or my best friend. If he doesn't pan out as a starter that's fine. But the problem is just how badly all of this has been managed. The best coaches are the ones who adapt their schemes to their talent, not the other way around. That applies from everywhere to the high school to the pro level. 

And Vic and his staff failed enormously and to an embarrassing extent. 

Edited August 26, 2021 by AnAngryAmerican

[grizmo78]

It's going to be hilarious (in a chaotic smh kind of way) if Teddy starts half the season and plays average football with us outside the playoff standings, then we turn it over to Drew who plays above average but not amazing football to barely get us into the wild card (similar play to his 5 game stretch his 1st year) and we go into next year unsure about everything all over again. 

[jolly red giant]

2 hours ago, broncosfan_101 said:

It matters exactly 0% that the deck was stacked against Lock. If he can’t clearly outshine the journeyman-ist journeyman in Teddy Bridgewater, there’s absolutely nothing to get excited about. 

I think Lock had a much better pre-season - he made some big plays and didn't turn the ball over. Teddy repeatedly checked down when he had wide open receivers.

For whatever reason - Paton and the coaching staff went with Teddy - and if they intended to do that all along they should have drafted a QB at 1.09

[grizmo78]

1 minute ago, jolly red giant said:

I think Lock had a much better pre-season - he made some big plays and didn't turn the ball over. Teddy repeatedly checked down when he had wide open receivers.

For whatever reason - Paton and the coaching staff went with Teddy - and if they intended to do that all along they should have drafted a QB at 1.09

Or honestly taken the trade down with the Bears and gotten multiple 1st round picks to set us up for being able to trade those assets for a QB (either vet or draft) without mortgaging the future! The bears are going to be trash this year... starting Dalton behind a terrible and injured offensive line. IMO we literally picked the most middling option we could have. 

[jolly red giant]

2 hours ago, champ11 said:

and Elway is the guy that hired both Vance Joseph and Vic Fangio.

Just so we are clear - Elway wanted to hire Kyle Shanahan - Ellis blocked it. Elway then wanted to can Joseph after one year and hire Mike Shanahan and Ellis blocked it.

[1234567]

4 minutes ago, jolly red giant said:

I think Lock had a much better pre-season - he made some big plays and didn't turn the ball over. Teddy repeatedly checked down when he had wide open receivers.

For whatever reason - Paton and the coaching staff went with Teddy - and if they intended to do that all along they should have drafted a QB at 1.09

You’re not wrong here. If they wanted ‘check down’ Teddy to win out over Lock from the start, then why the hell didn’t they just draft his replacement and be done with it? To me, this just enforces AAA’s point even more. They’re going with the safest route possible to try and save their jobs. They’re not interested in shooting for a championship in the next 2-3 years. All they care about is an 8-9 record this year so they don’t get fired. Pat Bowlen would be rolling over in his grave right now if he could see this garbage happening to his team. 

[lomaxgrUK]

1 hour ago, broncos_fan _from _uk said:

Specifically, what did YOU see, this preseason, to have such a strong opinion that he doesn’t get the nod?

I'd be interested to see which quote of mine (in any thread) that has led you to believe I have a strong opinion on the matter. I really don't. It's barely even 55/45 in my mind.

I just think it's asinine for people to talk about this decision like it absolutely should be Drew, or that it absolutely should be Teddy. 

That said ... If you want to me give you a reason for why I lean towards Teddy, it comes down to how I think he's a better option in situational scenarios.

Neither QB is going to bring us back from the dead in games or likely blow teams out. It's going to come down to quality 3rd and 4th down conversion, TDs in the redzone and limiting mistakes. I have more trust in Teddy in these aspects. That's the crux of it, really.

[champ11]

22 minutes ago, jolly red giant said:

Just so we are clear - Elway wanted to hire Kyle Shanahan - Ellis blocked it. Elway then wanted to can Joseph after one year and hire Mike Shanahan and Ellis blocked it.

k. regardless, Paton represents some structure that is not whatever the hell Ellis/Elway was. 

[AnAngryAmerican]

1 hour ago, grizmo78 said:

It's going to be hilarious (in a chaotic smh kind of way) if Teddy starts half the season and plays average football with us outside the playoff standings, then we turn it over to Drew who plays above average but not amazing football to barely get us into the wild card (similar play to his 5 game stretch his 1st year) and we go into next year unsure about everything all over again. 

They won’t do that. Teddy would have to  play terribly for them to abandon him. Or the fan base reaction so bad they have no choice. If Teddy is average and the record is average they’ll be happy because that’s what they want. That’s the goal - be average, that’s what the Broncos are now, a team that aspires to average. 

[AnAngryAmerican]

1 hour ago, jolly red giant said:

Just so we are clear - Elway wanted to hire Kyle Shanahan - Ellis blocked it. Elway then wanted to can Joseph after one year and hire Mike Shanahan and Ellis blocked it.

This is true with the one, for accuracy sake, correction, that Elway wanted to offer the job to Kyle, we don’t know for sure if he would have taken it with the SF offer on the table. Both had their plusses and minuses - Ellis and Elway here, York (who was at the time regarded as a meddlesome owner) and the mafia ties there. 

[champ11]

59 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

I'm at work too, no big.

But, no. Drew has made strides. Even with an OC who a) doesn't want him and b) won't coach to his skillset. He's adapted, they couldn't get him out of the building last spring. He's not Paxton Lynch who didn't really care. 

He had how many OCs since Mizzou? Drew has upside because, yes, he's young but also because he has talent and has never been put, or rarely been put, into a scheme the maximizes his talent. I'll say it again, if Vic (age 63) and Rich Scangarello (age 49) could have acted like adults and made things work out this might have been a better outcome for Drew. Elway, as their boss, failed the franchise by not making them work it out. 

And again, maybe Drew just isn't the guy. It's not like he's my cousin or my best friend. If he doesn't pan out as a starter that's fine. But the problem is just how badly all of this has been managed. The best coaches are the ones who adapt their schemes to their talent, not the other way around. That applies from everywhere to the high school to the pro level. 

And Vic and his staff failed enormously and to an embarrassing extent. 

To me this is just more excuses and upside projected onto Drew that just might not be there. We both watched Jay Cutler compared to Drew. Jay was making splash plays every game. Drew just hasn't shown that. He would make like.....one splash throw every three games and is mostly terrible otherwise. Compare him to a guy like Justin Herbert (or pick any good young QB) and they are making throws and making stuff happen. You think the Chargers had a great structure for Herbert last year? Nope. He's just a stud. Drew's "talent" is mostly overblown, IMO. He has an NFL caliber arm, but you can't put much of a reel of good plays together for him because he is so far behind everywhere else.

Either way, look, I'm not happy to be in QB purgatory either. I wanted Fields at #9. I don't like Fangio as HC material. And I've been a Broncos cynic for years. But I do think - with the talent this team has - there actually is hope for the beginning of a turnaround. If the coaching staff trusts Teddy to be the guy that can lead this team to being competitive throughout the season and possibly make the playoffs...I like that outcome. That's how you turn a loser franchise towards competence. It just frustrates me that people are attaching this "upside" to Drew - when frankly - it's just the hope and obsession with needing a franchise QB. I definitely like Drew and was hoping he would win the job. Him making a leap was best case scenario. 

I suppose I'm just optimistic and more of a glass half full guy as a fan. I'm hopeful that bringing in Paton was the first step in turning this around. And becoming a competent, competitive franchise is a way to rebuild. If the team sucks, Teddy sucks, I'll be right there looking for a burn it down moment...which I'm sure will happen if this season is a bust

 

[AnAngryAmerican]

54 minutes ago, lomaxgrUK said:

I'd be interested to see which quote of mine (in any thread) that has led you to believe I have a strong opinion on the matter. I really don't. It's barely even 55/45 in my mind.

I just think it's asinine for people to talk about this decision like it absolutely should be Drew, or that it absolutely should be Teddy. 

That said ... If you want to me give you a reason for why I lean towards Teddy, it comes down to how I think he's a better option in situational scenarios.

Neither QB is going to bring us back from the dead in games or likely blow teams out. It's going to come down to quality 3rd and 4th down conversion, TDs in the redzone and limiting mistakes. I have more trust in Teddy in these aspects. That's the crux of it, really.

That’s also a one-season, maybe even one game, viewpoint. Those of us who prefer Drew to win the job were arguing long term best option. Or at least that’s my view. Going 8-9 or some such with Teddy does nothing other than make the new owners job harder when he decides on his FO and coaching staff. 

With Drew its cut and dry - either he shows he can be a legit QB or he doesn’t. With Teddy, it’s dink and dunk and go .500 and end up in purgatory. 

[AnAngryAmerican]

15 minutes ago, champ11 said:

To me this is just more excuses and upside projected onto Drew that just might not be there. We both watched Jay Cutler compared to Drew. Jay was making splash plays every game. Drew just hasn't shown that. He would make like.....one splash throw every three games and is mostly terrible otherwise. Compare him to a guy like Justin Herbert (or pick any good young QB) and they are making throws and making stuff happen. You think the Chargers had a great structure for Herbert last year? Nope. He's just a stud. Drew's "talent" is mostly overblown, IMO. He has an NFL caliber arm, but you can't put much of a reel of good plays together for him because he is so far behind everywhere else.

Either way, look, I'm not happy to be in QB purgatory either. I wanted Fields at #9. I don't like Fangio as HC material. And I've been a Broncos cynic for years. But I do think - with the talent this team has - there actually is hope for the beginning of a turnaround. If the coaching staff trusts Teddy to be the guy that can lead this team to being competitive throughout the season and possibly make the playoffs...I like that outcome. That's how you turn a loser franchise towards competence. It just frustrates me that people are attaching this "upside" to Drew - when frankly - it's just the hope and obsession with needing a franchise QB. I definitely like Drew and was hoping he would win the job. Him making a leap was best case scenario. 

I suppose I'm just optimistic and more of a glass half full guy as a fan. I'm hopeful that bringing in Paton was the first step in turning this around. And becoming a competent, competitive franchise is a way to rebuild. If the team sucks, Teddy sucks, I'll be right there looking for a burn it down moment...which I'm sure will happen if this season is a bust

 

All fair points. What does making the playoffs in a tie-breaker and getting our s*** kicked in the first round do? Make Ellis and the Bowlen brats few more bucks? I want the Broncos to contend for Super Bowls, not wild cart berths. We’re not the Browns. A .500ish record is not what this team settles for.

If Paton wants to turn things around and contend for Super Bowls he should grow a pair and hire a real HC, draft a QB and stop *****-footing around by keeping Vic & Co and starting Teddy check down. 

Going with the Vic/Shurmur/Teddy show only confirms the worst concerns people had when he was hired in that he’s a Spielman clone who will field a solid but unspectacular roster coached by a below average staff. 

Those of us - which is most here - who wanted real change got a blue Honda Civic to replace our gray Toyota Corolla. 

Edited August 26, 2021 by AnAngryAmerican

[broncofan48]

5 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

All fair points. What does making the playoffs in a tie-breaker and getting our s*** kicked in the first round do? Make Ellis and the Bowlen brats few more bucks? I want the Broncos to contend for Super Bowls, not wild cart berths. We’re not the Browns. A .500ish record is not what this team settles for.

If Paton wants to turn things around and contend for Super Bowls he should grow a pair and hire a real HC, draft a QB and stop *****-footing around by keeping Vic & Co and starting Teddy check down. 

Going with the Vic/Shurmur/Teddy show only confirms the worst concerns people had when he was hired in that he’s a Spielman clone who will field a solid but unspectacular roster coached by a below average staff. 

Those of us - which is most here - who wanted real change got a blue Honda Civic to replace our gray Toyota Corolla. 

I mean he very well might hire a good HC, how do we know that keeping Vic for 1 more year while the ownership deal is fixed wasn’t part of the hiring on process? 
 

If he has a hire we all disagree with next year or keeps Vic after a mediocre year THEN it’s time to criticize his coaching choices.   
 

I would’ve much rather went with Fields but the coaching choice isn’t something we can lay at Paton’s feet yet