What to do at QB?

[Cutler06]

1 hour ago, grizmo78 said:

AZ: Josh Rosen #10 (2018) -> Kyler Murray #1 (2019) Franchise QB

CHI: Mitchell Trubisky #2 (2017) -> Justin Fields #11 (2021) Undetermined

NYJ: Sam Darnold #3 (2018) -> Zack Wilson #2 (2021) Undetermined

LA: Jared Goff #1 (2016) -> Matthew Stafford - Franchise QB

 

3 of these teams have taken 2 shots at a Franchise QB through the draft. Since Manning retired, we have taken:

DEN: Lynch #26 (2016), Lock #42 (2019) 

Lastly, your response was what, a point that those teams are still terrible and haven't been in the playoffs? Nope, LA have been and the Bears have been. Know who else haven't? The Broncos... And we have passed on potential solutions to the most important position in all of sports along the way which haven't set back those franchises any further back than we currently are. 

 

Well, grizmo, you don't read well do you, if you followed the thread here's my point clearly written out:

"And my point was even if you DRAFT a QB you may still have a hole at the position because there's just as good of a chance he busts as there is he does become your QBOTF."

 

Lynch might as well have been a 2nd round pick in a poor draft, a true mistake. And if previous threads, I have pointed out that it is a better argument of selecting Allen over Chubb even though Allen took time to develop and even with Chubb still showing a Pro Bowl level himself despite his injury history. 

If you feel I'm exaggerating or misrepresenting my point, that's your opinion, good for you. I'll stand by what I said, we'll see if Fields or Wilson falter, even if PSII busts. Just don't try and throw Fields or Wilson or Jones as guarantees until it happens. Any one of them can bust, so many factors . David Carr was the #1 overall pick and the lack of an offensive line RUINED his career, the Bears current Oline could be just as bad and have a negative impact on his career despite b=having the potential to be a HOFer himself, you just don't know.   

[grizmo78]

1 hour ago, Cutler06 said:

Well, grizmo, you don't read well do you, if you followed the thread here's my point clearly written out:

"And my point was even if you DRAFT a QB you may still have a hole at the position because there's just as good of a chance he busts as there is he does become your QBOTF."

 

Lynch might as well have been a 2nd round pick in a poor draft, a true mistake. And if previous threads, I have pointed out that it is a better argument of selecting Allen over Chubb even though Allen took time to develop and even with Chubb still showing a Pro Bowl level himself despite his injury history. 

If you feel I'm exaggerating or misrepresenting my point, that's your opinion, good for you. I'll stand by what I said, we'll see if Fields or Wilson falter, even if PSII busts. Just don't try and throw Fields or Wilson or Jones as guarantees until it happens. Any one of them can bust, so many factors . David Carr was the #1 overall pick and the lack of an offensive line RUINED his career, the Bears current Oline could be just as bad and have a negative impact on his career despite b=having the potential to be a HOFer himself, you just don't know.   

And my point is that you cant find a Franchise QB without taking a shot at a legitimate prospect (sure fire 1st rounders in any draft). And just because you pass on one of them and hit on other players, doesn't mean you are setting your self up to be any better than those teams that took them and missed. Only difference is you withheld from throwing a dart at the board, a sure fire way to make sure you don't get that Franchise QB. 

[Cutler06]

9 minutes ago, grizmo78 said:

And my point is that you cant find a Franchise QB without taking a shot at a legitimate prospect (sure fire 1st rounders in any draft). And just because you pass on one of them and hit on other players, doesn't mean you are setting your self up to be any better than those teams that took them and missed. Only difference is you withheld from throwing a dart at the board, a sure fire way to make sure you don't get that Franchise QB. 

Guess you'll be glad to know it isn't YOUR JOB to lose now is it. Harping on it isn't going to change it, just seems you and JRG think you have a need to keep whining about it until EVERYONE says you're right.....and it gets old, annoying and comes across as closed-minded and childish. And to be clear, I also wanted us to draft Fields but am smart enough to realize I can't change the past, only accept it and move forward. 

[Scoundrel]

25 minutes ago, Cutler06 said:

Guess you'll be glad to know it isn't YOUR JOB to lose now is it. Harping on it isn't going to change it, just seems you and JRG think you have a need to keep whining about it until EVERYONE says you're right.....and it gets old, annoying and comes across as closed-minded and childish. And to be clear, I also wanted us to draft Fields but am smart enough to realize I can't change the past, only accept it and move forward. 

Keep it to just football please

[grizmo78]

55 minutes ago, Cutler06 said:

Guess you'll be glad to know it isn't YOUR JOB to lose now is it. Harping on it isn't going to change it, just seems you and JRG think you have a need to keep whining about it until EVERYONE says you're right.....and it gets old, annoying and comes across as closed-minded and childish. And to be clear, I also wanted us to draft Fields but am smart enough to realize I can't change the past, only accept it and move forward. 

Idk about you, but part of the fun of being a fan is projection and analyzing moves we make and don’t make. Heck, that’s why madden is one of the most popular games despite how poorly made it is. If you’re only here for what actually happens, why are you here during the off-season. Just show up during the season. 
 

A message board is for *gasp!* discussions. If you’re not into discussing then leave. No one here is whining other than you about others being critical about the teams decisions and talking about philosophies of building championship teams. 
 

Your responses is what is keeping these discussions on going. If you don’t like a comment, leave it alone and it’ll die out once we get to the next page. 
 

And lastly, read the title of the thread. If you don’t want to discuss the topic, don’t click on it. Go to different threads and discuss the things you want to… easy way to avoid the thing that is annoying you. 

Edited August 31, 2021 by grizmo78

[Broncofan]

3 hours ago, grizmo78 said:

And my point is that you cant find a Franchise QB without taking a shot at a legitimate prospect (sure fire 1st rounders in any draft). And just because you pass on one of them and hit on other players, doesn't mean you are setting your self up to be any better than those teams that took them and missed. Only difference is you withheld from throwing a dart at the board, a sure fire way to make sure you don't get that Franchise QB. 

Just to illustrate the point from a wider lens, looking at the last 10-15 years for the AFC (getting too tired to do the entire league):

BUF - hit with Josh Allen, since Jim Kelly era, took 2 shots in Rd1 in last 10+ years - JP Losman & EJ Manuel.

NYJ - too many shots to count, but latest ones being Darnold & now Wilson; before that Mark Sanchez Rd1 

NE - obv we know the deal here with TB12, but now with Mac Jones Rd1 post-Brady year 2.

MIA - Ryan Tannehill in 2012, and of course, Tua  now

CLE - Brady Quinn, Brandon Weeden (at age 27!), Johnny Manziel & of course, now Baker Mayfield

PIT - Big Ben hasn't had them picking QB since then

BAL - After missing with Kyle Boller, hitting with Flacco, then finding his successor with Lamar Jackson

CIN - After getting Carson Palmer, they found Andy Dalton early Rd2, so no picks...until Joe Burrow.   Also fair to say Dalton never was a stellar QB, just good enough to not be a priority (and good enough to keep them the top draft spot..until Burrow).

IND - the truly fortunate org, in landing on Luck right after Peyton (but then throwing it away by not investing in the OL and killing his career)

HOU - after the David Carr disaster, no Rd1 picks, but a lot of misery until they took Watson Rd1 in 2017.

JAX - Leftwich was ahead of the target timeframe, but Gabbert & Bortles preceded Trevor Lawrence now.

TEN - Vince Young, Jake Locker, Marcus Mariota.....

DEN - we know our history

LAC - No need while Rivers was around, but again - successor with Justin Herbert

LV - Jamarcus Russell, then after hitting early Rd2 with Derek Carr, no picks.     Carr had a faster start, but to say his career mirrors Dalton is IMO fair.

KC - no picks until Mahomes (although they hedged this by trading for a 1st round pick in Alex Smith)

 

I could do the NFC, but it would be a similar story.  I know ppl will go "hey, look at all the misses" - and that's fair.  But the point worth considering - until you hit on QB, orgs just end up in a cycle where they keep looking.   And outside of Brady 20+ years ago, Dak & Russell Wilson (and Dak hasn't had the playoff success yet either), there hasn't been a true top-of-league, top-5 franchise-changing talent found outside of Rd1.  Which is why teams go there, and rightfully so.     

And yes, the SB's been won without such talents - but that's getting even rarer.    I referenced this when talking about Stafford/Watson (pre-legal issues) - but in the last 10 years, the only teams that have had a Final 4 appearance more than 1x - have had top 10 QB play.   Yes, the odd fluke year happens (DEN 2015, MIN with Case Keenum in 2017, JAX with Bortles).     It just doesn't happen in a sustainable way anymore - the Final 4 data shows this in spades.

All of which to say - @grizmo78's point, which other posters such as @broncos67 and @germ-x have made in the past - until you have QB, you kind of have to be willing to take shots on QB prospects in Rd1 (I'm not quite so committed to say "above all else"- because that was the same argument with taking Lock at 1.10 - obv would have been disastrous, and there are years in which there isn't a Rd1 talent there when we pick - the part that's different is that this is truly the 1st time since 2018 where we did have a true Rd1 guy there at our spot - and hence the angst among our fanbase).  Or in the case of Stafford/Watson (and if he was truly available, A-Rod) - giving up first(s) to get the difference-maker level QB.

@Cutler06 - I get the point that it's in the past.   But I think the overall point that Elway's been way too gunshy in the past 5 drafts in going Rd1 QB is a fair one, and it does deserve recognition.    Yes, Elway screwed the pooch royally with Lynch, and that usually sets the org back 3 years.   Elway's commitment to Lock has put us in QB purgatory for 3 years (which IMO was not warranted if a better chance shows itself - ARI's move with Kyler Murray, and NYJ's move with Darnold, shows the new thinking there, provided the new guy is truly elite-ceiling).   At some point, GM's have to make that decision and dive in.    It's what KC did with Mahomes, and other than the rare unicorn of a Dak/Wilson....it's usually Rd1 that turns team fortunes around for QBOTF, and brings them to sustained contention nowadays.    Time will tell if Paton has learned that lesson.   Can't change our fate with Fields / 1.9, but it's worth tracking to see how Paton approaches this next offseason, with the very high likelihood our 2022+ answer isn't on the roster. 

Edited August 31, 2021 by Broncofan

[Broncofan]

Final comment - I get the topic's been discussed so much, ppl are tired, especially since there isn't much new to add to the convo. 

But until we have our guy, it's going to keep coming up, too.   I mean, this is a thread specifically on what to do for QB.   Hope the above at least added a wider lens (would have done the NFC, but man, that took 20+ mins to do the AFC, so I think wider lens was given lol).

[AKRNA]

Something to keep in mind about Fields, Jackson, Murray, etc. , any of the college "dual threat" QB's.

At least half of the GM's in the league would never spend a high draft pick on them. This is a discussion that's been going on for decades. The school of thought being, these kids are sol talented and dangerous as runners that they never really learn the position. They've been running out of trouble on the field successfully since they were playing pee wee ball and it's a huge part of their game. The thing is, it'll put fans in the seats, it's exciting and works on many teams.

Doesn't work in the playoffs though, at least it hasn't yet. Good defensive teams start showing up, and shutting them down. Cam Newton got further than any of them and was totally throttled by Denvers D.

Lamar Jackson looks all world during the regular season and is ineffective during the postseason.

Anyway, I wouldn't have been surprised if Denver had drafted Jones. I would've been had they drafted Fields. 

 

 

[Cutler06]

11 hours ago, grizmo78 said:

Idk about you, but part of the fun of being a fan is projection and analyzing moves we make and don’t make. Heck, that’s why madden is one of the most popular games despite how poorly made it is. If you’re only here for what actually happens, why are you here during the off-season. Just show up during the season. 
 

A message board is for *gasp!* discussions. If you’re not into discussing then leave. No one here is whining other than you about others being critical about the teams decisions and talking about philosophies of building championship teams. 
 

Your responses is what is keeping these discussions on going. If you don’t like a comment, leave it alone and it’ll die out once we get to the next page. 
 

And lastly, read the title of the thread. If you don’t want to discuss the topic, don’t click on it. Go to different threads and discuss the things you want to… easy way to avoid the thing that is annoying you. 

Sounds like you are looking for a way to vent....try a psychologist. I can hear and understand a bit of discrepancy, but the CONSTANT WHINING is just a bit much. Between you and JRG we've heard the same gripe over 15 times...we get it, you wanted Fields and think it's a colossal mistake he wasn't chosen, you have been heard. Can you or anyone change that ??? No, so let's move on. 

Edited August 31, 2021 by Cutler06

[Broncofan]

39 minutes ago, Cutler06 said:

Sounds like you are looking for a way to vent....try a psychologist. I can hear and understand a bit of discrepancy, but the CONSTANT WHINING is just a bit much. Between you and JRG we've heard the same gripe over 15 times...we get it, you wanted Fields and think it's a colossal mistake he wasn't chosen, you have been heard. Can you or anyone change that ??? No, so let's move on. 

Or you can just let it go.  This is the thread about QB planning.  The point was made about teams having to take chances on Rd1.    
 

I know you were in favor of Fields for 1.9.    Just the above point about taking chances in Rd1 (of which I’m not all in on at any cost - but would have been ok for Fields), it still holds as part of future discussion .  It’s not like it’s a hijack off other threads.    

Talking QB is the topic.   Even if I don’t think Teddy / Lock are the long term answer I wouldn’t shut down the believers for continuing to post about their support.  Especially since the Fields decision is being used to raise the philosophical point about taking Rd1 risks.    It’s a posting board - I’d get it if it was dominating GD threads or other threads but kinda seems like it belongs here.   Just my 2 cents.  

Edited August 31, 2021 by Broncofan

[Cutler06]

2 hours ago, Broncofan said:

Or you can just let it go.  This is the thread about QB planning.  The point was made about teams having to take chances on Rd1.    
 

I know you were in favor of Fields for 1.9.    Just the above point about taking chances in Rd1 (of which I’m not all in on at any cost - but would have been ok for Fields), it still holds as part of future discussion .  It’s not like it’s a hijack off other threads.    

Talking QB is the topic.   Even if I don’t think Teddy / Lock are the long term answer I wouldn’t shut down the believers for continuing to post about their support.  Especially since the Fields decision is being used to raise the philosophical point about taking Rd1 risks.    It’s a posting board - I’d get it if it was dominating GD threads or other threads but kinda seems like it belongs here.   Just my 2 cents.  

Not saying we shouldn't talk QB's (even if they're NOT on this team), but there is such a thing as overkill

[Broncofan]

43 minutes ago, Cutler06 said:

Not saying we shouldn't talk QB's (even if they're NOT on this team), but there is such a thing as overkill

The thread is 161 pages.   Not like there hasn’t been overkill all around lol.     Just seems selective here.    

[Cutler06]

16 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

The thread is 161 pages.   Not like there hasn’t been overkill all around lol.     Just seems selective here.    

Think what you will, I've had several regular posters agree with me. Guess you like redundancy too. 

[Broncofan]

17 minutes ago, Cutler06 said:

Think what you will, I've had several regular posters agree with me. Guess you like redundancy too. 

OK, then what is the measure of overkill?

Let's be clear - @grizmo78 has posted 7x in this thread's last 10 pages, in the last week.   2-3 were on Fields/1.9.   That's it.   And somehow you say he's posting as "overkill".   Weird to say the least. 

There are a LOT more posters who posted on this topic in that period, with repeatable themes - those who think Lock still has a shot, some who believe in Teddy, others who see we're going nowhere long-term - but they're posting on their points more than 2-3x, too.   Go ahead & read back the 10 pages.   It just so happens his take is one you're tired of seeing - but you're calling him out when he's made a point of just posting, and then having a difference in opinion on 1 particular subject.    Maybe you're tired of seeing that take, but pinning it on him as perpetuating it, seems selective.  As you said, many ppl felt that way (yourself included) and still have posted on it here & there.   That's my point. 

If we're going to start saying ppl who post 7x in a 10-page space, over a week, we're going to discourage pretty much any discussion.   None of the points were disrespectful, or personally directed.   Come on, we're better than this.  

If the best take is "well a few others agree" - that's kind of missing the point of a Forum.   And in the context of a 162-page thread - I don't know how the situation here fits.    If this was a GD thread, or another topic and this take was hijacking it, well, I'd totally get it.   But it was also posted in the context of what DEN should do going forward - and whether or not as an org, and Paton (who knows), should be bigger risk-takers.   

Honestly, if you think a guy posting 7x in the last 10 pages, when over half aren't even on Fields himself....is somehow too much - don't know how ppl think you can have an open discussion.    Maybe it's been brought up by different posters all the time - but labelling 1-2 posters as overkill, well look hard at whether that's the case or not here.   I don't really see it.  And for those who "support" your view - look back at the last 10 pages, at the last week, and maybe they'll come to the same conclusion too.

I've said my piece, won't drag it on further.  But take a look back, and see the volume / thread over the last week and 10 pages, and maybe you'll come to a different conclusion.  I say this with no dog in this show, either.  My final 2 cents, moving on....

Edited August 31, 2021 by Broncofan

[Cutler06]

1 minute ago, Broncofan said:

OK, then what is the measure of overkill?

Let's be clear - @grizmo78 has posted 7x in this thread's last 10 pages, in the last week.   2-3 were on Fields/1.9.   That's it.   And somehow you say he's posting as "overkill".   Weird to say the least. 

There are a LOT more posters who posted on this topic in that period, with repeatable themes - those who think Lock still has a shot, some who believe in Teddy, others who see we're going nowhere long-term - but they're posting on their points more than 2-3x, too.   Go ahead & read back the 10 pages.   It just so happens his take is one you're tired of seeing - but you're calling him out when he's made a point of just posting, and then having a difference in opinion on 1 particular subject.    Maybe you're tired of seeing that take, but pinning it on him as perpetuating it, seems selective.  As you said, many ppl felt that way (yourself included) and still have posted on it here & there.   That's my point. 

If we're going to start saying ppl who post 7x in a 10-page space, over a week, we're going to discourage pretty much any discussion.   None of the points were disrespectful, or personally directed.   Come on, we're better than this.  

If the best take is "well a few others agree" - that's kind of missing the point of a Forum.   And in the context of a 162-page thread - I don't know how the situation here fits.    If this was a GD thread, or another topic and this take was hijacking it, well, I'd totally get it.   But it was also posted in the context of what DEN should do going forward - and whether or not as an org, and Paton (who knows), should be bigger risk-takers.   

Honestly, if you think a guy posting 7x in the last 10 pages, when over half aren't even on Fields himself....is somehow too much - don't know how ppl think you can have an open discussion.    Maybe it's been brought up by different posters all the time - but labelling 1-2 posters as overkill, well look hard at whether that's the case or not here.   I don't really see it.  And for those who "support" your view - look back at the last 10 pages, at the last week, and maybe they'll come to the same conclusion too.

I've said my piece, won't drag it on further.  But take a look back, and see the volume / thread over the last week and 10 pages, and maybe you'll come to a different conclusion.  I say this with no dog in this show, either.  My final 2 cents, moving on....

This conversation is overkill, if you want to defend grizmo's honor....great. But if I want to state I am sick of hearing "We shoulda drafted Fields at 1.9" for the millionth time, I guess I have that right too.