Stafford traded to Rams

[NVRamsFan]

So how do you guys like your GM today? I mentioned I think in the thread about him being hired you'd like him just give him some time. Has the needle moved at all? 

[Louis Friend]

58 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

Yea, like I said, he’s my guy. Ive been behind him all the way back when it was the argument of Goff vs Wentz after we traded up for #1, so Ill be a fan of him forever, and now obviously of the Lions as long as he’s here. That is just to give you where these thoughts on him and the LA situation is coming from. I do feel like I can be reasonable about his faults and stuff too so I’m not going to just tell you you’re getting a HOF in the making either. He’s always been a stand up guy, and leader, who will always own up to his mistakes and from what Ive seen is always trying to get better. He got a bad rep to start from the Hard Knocks stuff, but to boil him down to that is just unfair

So Ill be honest with you, he has picked up this tendency to try to play hero ball the last few seasons, and he just doesn’t have that type of style, so it always looked even worse when he did that (ala possibly the worst pick ever against Seattle) but when he plays within himself and the system, there aren’t many guys who execute better. Which admittedly does put a cap on him, but that cap is high enough that he can win games for you. Its going to be a very different type of player than Stafford, where we all know he has a howitzer for an arm, Goff is a lot more touch and anticipation, with the ability to throw just the most accurate passes, but can still put them in the small windows (you can see it in the GB game on the playoffs even with the bad thumb)

As to what happened in LA, Jared was to blame, but some how McVay is getting away Scott free in this situation (Rams forum hates when I bring this up). I think McVay felt like he got pantsed infront of the football world by BB in the Super Bowl, and instead of getting more creative and taking more risks with the offense, he turtled and started to look for shortcuts. He is still one of the best offensive minds, but instead of trusting Goff to work with him and evolve, he just started taking away opportunities that Goff might turn the ball over, and in turn took away any big play potential as well. We supposedly made the purposeful decision to get rid of a deep threat, allowing defenses to sit on everything intermediate and underneath. There’s more to that (looking for a running QB to freeze the defense) and we can get into it if you want, but Ill get back to Goff.

Most will tell you he needs play action, and obviouly that helps any QB, but that was also a result of the OL inability to keep him clean. If he has his feet clean, he is as deadly with his precision as they come. And while he isn’t a runner, he is still athletic and is actually very impressive on roll outs and bootlegs. But as soon as you knock him off his rhythm or a play completely breaks down, its basically anyone’s guess. That’s where the hero ball came in a lot, so if he can learn to “live to fight another day” and toss it away more or take the 6 yard gain on the little scramble, or even take a small sack, he will be much better off. But can he change his ways with that? Hopefully as he matures into he prime he can.

And your big question, WRs/Weapons. To start, he has never had a weapon in the NFL like Golladay. He wasn’t ever afraid to throw some contested passes to Watkins while he had him, but thats the closest he’s ever been to someone he can trust to win a jump ball. He was never shy to let one rip to Cooks, but thats very different. I do believe if he had a talent like KG, he wouldn’t hesitate to chuck it to him, it would be less often than (my perception) of how often Stafford would. He is best with reliable WRs, good route runners mostly. Robert Woods is the perfect WR for him, most will point to Kupp as his “go to” or “safety blanket” but it was truly Woods who he leaned the most on. He has never had a TE as good as TJ, but he made Higbee look like an all pro for 2 months at the end of last year, and he is no where close to Hock.

I know this was a lot, and I will be around here to get deep into it with you guys, and this does seem like a very glowing review, but he has all the tools. Just so much talent, which is why he was the #1 pick. His biggest issues are consistency, not making the dumb play, and what felt like the whole offense in LA fell into complacency, all things that should get better as he matures into the prime of his career.

One of Stafford's biggest faults is lack of touch. His arm is so big, and he can make every throw, that sometimes he really just drills it in there. His WRs really have to learn to catch hard passes. 

As for Goff, I don't believe he's as bad as some make him out to be, but he's probably not going to replicate his 2017/2018 seasons either. I look forward to seeing what we can do with him, Swift, Hockenson and possibly Golladay. 

[jrry32]

6 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

Campbell: He is of the Parcells tree but obviously has spent a lot of time and learned under Payton. He might be more of an X's and O's guy than given credit for but he's never been in a position to show it. So we can only assume that he probably isn't. He's definitely that rah rah, rally guy. Which can work since you don't really want/shouldn't want your HC too involved in one side of the ball. Campbell is going to be the CEO type. 

Lynn: Not as familiar with him but for 20+ years the Lions have struggled to run the ball. It'll be nice to finally have a team where we aren't so one dimensional and winning games exclusively off of Staffords arm. 

Glenn: He's brought in Dom Capers to lend him a hand. While he hasn't been a DC, having a second set of eyes and someone that is familiar with the division can only help. 

OL Coach/Haley: Haley did a tremendous job in making our OL into a near dominant unit. He was a guy that we all wanted to see back in Detroit and he did return after making a few other interviews. 

 

Ah, okay, y'all kept Hank Fraley. Yeah, he should be a fine choice. I remember him as a player.

[Louis Friend]

15 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

He has put together a staff with a lot of former NFL players, and he's obviously a former NFL player himself. He seems like a Parcells/Payton guy. I thought he did an impressive job of holding things together in Miami after they fired Philbin. That team seemed to have quit on Philbin, but they played for Campbell. He strikes me as a Mike Vrabel type. He's not an amazing X's and O's guy, but guys respect him and will play hard for him. Because of that, his coordinators matter a lot.

Looking at y'all's coordinators, I have a lot of respect for Anthony Lynn. He's one of the best in the business at developing and scheming effective rushing attacks. He can be a tad predictable with his play-calling and be too conservative at times, but he can really run the ball and isn't a bum when it comes to passing games either. Aaron Glenn is widely respected, but I can't evaluate him as a DC because he hasn't been one yet.

Looking at some other coaches, I think Aubrey Pleasant is one of the best CB Coaches in the NFL (if not the best). Offensive line coach is obviously an extremely important position. I don't know if the Lions have hired anybody there yet. I know Mark Brunell. He doesn't have NFL coaching experience, but he did an impressive job in high school football, played for a very long time, knows the game well, and is a great guy. Duce Staley is obviously a major addition and another former player who is well respected around the NFL.

Hasn't been hired yet, but rumor has it the lions are talking to Hines Ward about becoming the WR coach. That will leave DL coach left open. 

[Karnage84]

Just now, jrry32 said:

Ah, okay, y'all kept Hank Fraley. Yeah, he should be a fine choice. I remember him as a player.

Yes. He did a great job overall. We need a little help on the right side. I personally think RT but we have guys that can fill the role if need be in Vaitai and Crosby.

I had hoped that we could have kept our ST coach, Coombs, but it's hard to come back from calling a fake punt on your own and disregarding what your HC (even if they're interim) has called. 

[StLunatic88]

4 minutes ago, Louis Friend said:

As for Goff, I don't believe he's as bad as some make him out to be, but he's probably not going to replicate his 2017/2018 seasons either. I look forward to seeing what we can do with him, Swift, Hockenson and possibly Golladay. 

Very reasonable take and expectations. There is a very high percentage chance that 2018 is he career year, he and McVay were clicking so much that they brought C.J. Anderson back from the junk yard.

But that doesn’t mean he cant be more consistent, and potentially even better that way as a winning level QB

theres always so much hyperbole used these days, especially on this forum, “trash” “awful” “garbage” etc. are all used way too flippantly, just because a guy isn’t playing at a pro bowl level.

[Louis Friend]

2 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

Yes. He did a great job overall. We need a little help on the right side. I personally think RT but we have guys that can fill the role if need be in Vaitai and Crosby.

I had hoped that we could have kept our ST coach, Coombs, but it's hard to come back from calling a fake punt on your own and disregarding what your HC (even if they're interim) has called. 

Reportedly, it was not Coombs first rogue move. Apparently, he was on thin ice with the team and that was the final straw. He has a bright future somewhere. 

[Karnage84]

6 minutes ago, Louis Friend said:

Reportedly, it was not Coombs first rogue move. Apparently, he was on thin ice with the team and that was the final straw. He has a bright future somewhere. 

I hadn't heard that but I mean.. it is what it is. You just can't do that. He's a young guy and should learn from that lesson. 

[jrry32]

2 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

Thanks for coming in and joining the party. It's actually nice to see someone pop in to support a guy that has just been traded. It does provide a little more optimism instead of assuming we're just punting for the next 2 years (even if we are going pretty hard into a rebuild).

Things obviously didn't work out in LA otherwise he'd still be there. What do you think went wrong and what kind of offense do you think Goff needs in order to regain form? Also of great importance - what kind of WR does Goff do best with? KG is a jump ball champion but struggles to gain separation. 

Well, I'll warn you upfront that I am biased. I loved Goff as a prospect, and I have supported him as QB1 of the Rams. I also am of the opinion that pocket passers take longer to develop and don't normally hit their stride until the 27 to 30 years old window, so I am less concerned about Goff's decline from 2017 and 2018 than most people. I think it's the volatility you see with young QBs. Here's my long novel of a Goff breakdown:

I think things went South in LA in part because of Goff and in part because of McVay. I know it's basically a capital crime to blame McVay for any of the offense's shortcomings (especially in Ramville), but the creativity and adaptivity we saw in 2017 and 2018 was largely missing in 2020. (I will also note that as much credit as McVay gets for Goff's success, Kirk Cousins has actually put up numbers that are as good or better without McVay as he did in his two years starting for McVay.) I could understand why in 2019 we didn't have it. Our OL was an absolute atrocious mess until late in the season. It finally gelled along with some young guys stepping up late in the year. Prior to that, you couldn't count on it to hold up or run block well.

However, I feel Goff's performance in 2019 is very underrated because most people only look at the box score. McVay's situational play-calling makes Goff's season look significantly worse than it was. Our running game was bottom ten in the NFL, yet we were #11 in PPG and #7 in YPG. That occurred because of the passing game. But when we got into the redzone, McVay preferred to run the ball for TDs. So Goff's TD numbers were way down. In a scheme with more normal situational play-calling, he'd have had 30+ passing TDs.

On the other hand, he wasn't particularly good this year. The OL and running game improved. We still had a weak link at Center who caused problems, but Goff should have had a better year. I'll note that Goff's numbers with Whitworth at LT and without Whitworth at LT were night and day different (I think his passer rating was 10 to 12 points higher with Whitworth). And that makes sense because the OL regressed quite a bit without Whit. Still, Goff was prone to blunders this year that were inexcusable.

My take is that this was the first year under McVay were the offense just wasn't scoring or putting up many big plays. Instead of playing within himself and playing to the defensive strength, Goff pressed to deliver points. Unfortunately, in doing so, he made a lot of bad decisions. The biggest problem I saw with him was not taking a sack when the play wasn't there. Instead, he'd try to rush a risky throw, and that led to a number of bad turnovers. Sometimes, you just have to take the sack and learn to live to fight another day. So Goff trying to play hero ball hurt the team a lot. The way I see it is that he's still a young QB, and young QBs do immature things like that. They get fooled by coverages, they don't see open receivers from time to time, and they force some stupid throws. It's why pocket passers take longer to develop. It takes time, experience, and maturity to master the mental side of the NFL.

Anyways, I think Goff's issues this year are fixable. The best way to help Goff succeed is to have a strong interior OL. He doesn't do well with interior pressure. It's his biggest weakness. Offensively, I like Goff in an offense that use plenty of play action and attacks the intermediate level of the field. When he's on his game, he's one of the best intermediate passers in football. He can execute the dink and dunk passing attack. But the intermediate game is where he can do a lot of damage. He throws digs and outs so well. 

It's hard to evaluate his deep passing skills right now. He was quite good at it in 2017 and 2018 when he had deep threats. In 2019, Cooks got injured and never looked quite right. In 2020, we had no deep threats (and no WRs who were reliable in jump-ball situations). Goff didn't look good throwing the deep ball this year, but I don't think that part of his game is necessarily gone.

I couldn't tell you what kind of WR works best for Goff because the Rams haven't given him much in the way of choices. I can tell you that he's quite effective with precision route runners. When he's on his game, he throws with great timing, anticipation, touch, and placement. He puts the ball where it needs to be to give his WRs a chance to run with it after the catch. But he hasn't really had any jump-ball WRs with the Rams. I imagine he would be capable of using one, but I don't know.

Ultimately, with Goff, you have a guy who isn't very mobile and doesn't work well under pressure (especially interior pressure). His mental game can also be streaky/inconsistent. But in terms of pure throwing ability, he's as gifted as they come. He doesn't quite have Stafford's arm strength. But he has the arm to make every throw imaginable. He just can't scramble and throw 50+ yards off platform like Stafford. What he can do when he's on his game is consistently hit the strike zone and put the ball into tight windows. Goff is frustrating because of the streaky play, but when he's cooking, you feel like you're watching a top QB. It's like Brady, Brees, Manning, RIvers, etc. He's like a machine. The guy doesn't do well outside of structure, but he can absolutely dominate within the structure of the offense.

Summary: Goff can be streaky and turnover prone, especially when he plays hero ball, but he's one of the purest throwers you'll ever see when he's on his game. If he can continue maturing as a player and grow out of the streakiness and hero ball, he can be a franchise QB. The key with Goff is to protect him, especially from interior pressure.

EDIT: I feel I must mention one other thing. After Jared came back from missing Week 17 with his thumb injury (also worth mentioning that he has been super durable during his career), he was playing more within himself and didn't make the frustrating decisions that led to turnovers in the playoffs. In fact, if you look at the playoff stats from this year, Goff is currently #3 in passer rating. He didn't put up big numbers, but he played smart, relatively efficient football. Additionally, Goff is capable of running the offense at the LOS and actually audibled into the PA TD passing play that put the Seahawks away.

Edited February 1, 2021 by jrry32

[Louis Friend]

9 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Well, I'll warn you upfront that I am biased. I loved Goff as a prospect, and I have supported him as QB1 of the Rams. I also am of the opinion that pocket passers take longer to develop and don't normally hit their stride until the 27 to 30 years old window, so I am less concerned about Goff's decline from 2017 and 2018 than most people. I think it's the volatility you see with young QBs. Here's my long novel of a Goff breakdown:

I think things went South in LA in part because of Goff and in part because of McVay. I know it's basically a capital crime to blame McVay for any of the offense's shortcomings (especially in Ramville), but the creativity and adaptivity we saw in 2017 and 2018 was largely missing in 2020. (I will also note that as much credit as McVay gets for Goff's success, Kirk Cousins has actually put up numbers that are as good or better without McVay as he did in his two years starting for McVay.) I could understand why in 2019 we didn't have it. Our OL was an absolute atrocious mess until late in the season. It finally gelled along with some young guys stepping up late in the year. Prior to that, you couldn't count on it to hold up or run block well.

However, I feel Goff's performance in 2019 is very underrated because most people only look at the box score. McVay's situational play-calling makes Goff's season look significantly worse than it was. Our running game was bottom ten in the NFL, yet we were #11 in PPG and #7 in YPG. That occurred because of the passing game. But when we got into the redzone, McVay preferred to run the ball for TDs. So Goff's TD numbers were way down. In a scheme with more normal situational play-calling, he'd have had 30+ passing TDs.

On the other hand, he wasn't particularly good this year. The OL and running game improved. We still had a weak link at Center who caused problems, but Goff should have had a better year. I'll note that Goff's numbers with Whitworth at LT and without Whitworth at LT were night and day different (I think his passer rating was 10 to 12 points higher with Whitworth). And that makes sense because the OL regressed quite a bit without Whit. Still, Goff was prone to blunders this year that were inexcusable.

My take is that this was the first year under McVay were the offense just wasn't scoring or putting up many big plays. Instead of playing within himself and playing to the defensive strength, Goff pressed to deliver points. Unfortunately, in doing so, he made a lot of bad decisions. The biggest problem I saw with him was not taking a sack when the play wasn't there. Instead, he'd try to rush a risky throw, and that led to a number of bad turnovers. Sometimes, you just have to take the sack and learn to live to fight another day. So Goff trying to play hero ball hurt the team a lot. The way I see it is that he's still a young QB, and young QBs do immature things like that. They get fooled by coverages, they don't see open receivers from time to time, and they force some stupid throws. It's why pocket passers take longer to develop. It takes time, experience, and maturity to master the mental side of the NFL.

Anyways, I think Goff's issues this year are fixable. The best way to help Goff succeed is to have a strong interior OL. He doesn't do well with interior pressure. It's his biggest weakness. Offensively, I like Goff in an offense that use plenty of play action and attacks the intermediate level of the field. When he's on his game, he's one of the best intermediate passers in football. He can execute the dink and dunk passing attack. But the intermediate game is where he can do a lot of damage. He throws digs and outs so well. 

It's hard to evaluate his deep passing skills right now. He was quite good at it in 2017 and 2018 when he had deep threats. In 2019, Cooks got injured and never looked quite right. In 2020, we had no deep threats (and no WRs who were reliable in jump-ball situations). Goff didn't look good throwing the deep ball this year, but I don't think that part of his game is necessarily gone.

I couldn't tell you what kind of WR works best for Goff because the Rams haven't given him much in the way of choices. I can tell you that he's quite effective with precision route runners. When he's on his game, he throws with great timing, anticipation, touch, and placement. He puts the ball where it needs to be to give his WRs a chance to run with it after the catch. But he hasn't really had any jump-ball WRs with the Rams. I imagine he would be capable of using one, but I don't know.

Ultimately, with Goff, you have a guy who isn't very mobile and doesn't work well under pressure (especially interior pressure). His mental game can also be streaky/inconsistent. But in terms of pure throwing ability, he's as gifted as they come. He doesn't quite have Stafford's arm strength. But he has the arm to make every throw imaginable. He just can't scramble and throw 50+ yards off platform like Stafford. What he can do when he's on his game is consistently hit the strike zone and put the ball into tight windows. Goff is frustrating because of the streaky play, but when he's cooking, you feel like you're watching a top QB. It's like Brady, Brees, Manning, RIvers, etc. He's like a machine. The guy doesn't do well outside of structure, but he can absolutely dominate within the structure of the offense.

Summary: Goff can be streaky and turnover prone, especially when he plays hero ball, but he's one of the purest throwers you'll ever see when he's on his game. If he can continue maturing as a player and grow out of the streakiness and hero ball, he can be a franchise QB. The key with Goff is to protect him, especially from interior pressure.

EDIT: I feel I must mention one other thing. After Jared came back from missing Week 17 with his thumb injury (also worth mentioning that he has been super durable during his career), he was playing more within himself and didn't make the frustrating decisions that led to turnovers in the playoffs. In fact, if you look at the playoff stats from this year, Goff is currently #3 in passer rating. He didn't put up big numbers, but he played smart, relatively efficient football. Additionally, Goff is capable of running the offense at the LOS and actually audibled into the PA TD passing play that put the Seahawks away.

Love the thorough breakdown. I'm out of footballs. 😞

Campbell/Lynn have discussed designing the offense around the players. They've mentioned using Swift in the slot more for mismatches. I'd imagine in much of the same way I saw Wood play in L.A on occasion, however, he'd still be our primary RB. They want a strong run game. Hockenson can be a good intermediate pass catcher and he's streaky with his 50/50 balls. I still think he's a better Higbee though. If we re-sign or tag Golladay, Goff will have a deep ball threat with great hands although not the best route runner. 

I'm excited to see how this all looks on the field.

[jrry32]

35 minutes ago, Louis Friend said:

Love the thorough breakdown. I'm out of footballs. 😞

Campbell/Lynn have discussed designing the offense around the players. They've mentioned using Swift in the slot more for mismatches. I'd imagine in much of the same way I saw Wood play in L.A on occasion, however, he'd still be our primary RB. They want a strong run game. Hockenson can be a good intermediate pass catcher and he's streaky with his 50/50 balls. I still think he's a better Higbee though. If we re-sign or tag Golladay, Goff will have a deep ball threat with great hands although not the best route runner. 

I'm excited to see how this all looks on the field.

We used Gurley a lot in the passing game. I was sad to see us go away from that the past two years. Obviously, Gurley's limitations had a huge hand in that in 2019 and Akers being a rookie had a huge hand in that in 2020. Goff likes to check it down to the HB, but our 3rd down HB, Malcolm Brown, was playing because he was the best pass protector. He wasn't a dynamic receiver. 

[Karnage84]

14 hours ago, Louis Friend said:

Love the thorough breakdown. I'm out of footballs. 😞

Campbell/Lynn have discussed designing the offense around the players. They've mentioned using Swift in the slot more for mismatches. I'd imagine in much of the same way I saw Wood play in L.A on occasion, however, he'd still be our primary RB. They want a strong run game. Hockenson can be a good intermediate pass catcher and he's streaky with his 50/50 balls. I still think he's a better Higbee though. If we re-sign or tag Golladay, Goff will have a deep ball threat with great hands although not the best route runner. 

I'm excited to see how this all looks on the field.

You wouldn't be out of footballs if you didn't just throw them around like Jameis Winston INT's.

[diehardlionfan]

17 hours ago, NVRamsFan said:

So how do you guys like your GM today? I mentioned I think in the thread about him being hired you'd like him just give him some time. Has the needle moved at all? 

Yes, it’s moved. He just engineered a trade where both QB’s are happy and the 1st round picks are futures which I believe to be of great value (more so than a first this year) to a rebuilding team.

I wasn’t enamoured with the Detroit hires initially. In fact I was very concerned about the amount of individuals without experience. They’ve mitigated those concerns with hiring Dorsey, Staley, Capers, and the rumoured interest in Hines Ward.

A big positive is Staley and Glenn who likely will be HC’s in short time so the draft compensation will be an added bonus.

So......Holmes first move, in my opinion, is a home run. Hopefully he and Disner can work some cap magic. Possibly acquire more future picks and have a successful draft.

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by diehardlionfan

[diehardlionfan]

On 2/1/2021 at 9:50 AM, Karnage84 said:

This is the only part of all of this where it does help me with that. From the way that DC is talking and the articles talking about scheme, it seems like the team has a plan to work with the groceries that are in the cupboard while building up what they want to have in stock. 

There was an article talking about the defensive scheme and running a 3-4. It makes sense based on the personnel that we have in place, especially big ticket guys like Flowers and Collins. You could do salary dumps like I've proposed in my mock but if the Lions don't want to do that, they have to keep these guys around until 2022/2023. Collins can be released for next to nothing in 2022 and is a FA in 2023. Flowers frees up $18M in cap space in 2023 (FA in 2024). 

2021 is probably considered a wash, get experience and work on establishing the culture. Begin building up the foundations in 2022 (2 1st's) and adding to it in 2023 (2 1st's). 

I agree. Given the Lions situation I believe the future 1st’s are of higher value than getting a first this year. The flexibility Holmes has created is fantastic. 

Im interested to see how they manage the cap and how they structure the team on both sides of the ball. I think we all have a fair idea of the core moving forward. 

2021 will be a wash but it’s going to be a valuable wash. It allows a year of coaching. Gaining knowledge of each team members strengths and weaknesses both physically and mentally. They will learn what motivates each individual. Then they have a sound knowledge base and the draft capital to target any player they covet. I actually hope they trade this years first for a package that includes a first next year subject to Lawrence, Wilson and Sewell being off the board. 

In my view the most pressing need is to create an environment where Goff can be successful. That would be goal one in my view. Shore up the right side. Deal with the receiver shortage then next year get after the defence. 

[Louis Friend]

7 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

You wouldn't be out of footballs if you didn't just throw them around like Jameis Winston INT's.