Stafford traded to Rams

[Karnage84]

1 minute ago, Superduperman said:

Initial reaction is that the Lions took the worse deal by turning down Carolina, and it would be awesome of have #7 and #8. They accommodated Stafford at their own expense.

Looking at it more closely, I can understand taking the Rams' deal. First round picks in future years, as the team starts to take shape, as college football and the scouting/combine process come back to normal, will be valuable. I bet in 2023 we'll be happy we have that extra 1st rounder.

Also I can see the Lions betting - maybe just a little? - that Stafford isn't all that with the Rams and either displays his typical inconsistency or has injuries. Those picks might be higher than 25.

This is the only part of all of this where it does help me with that. From the way that DC is talking and the articles talking about scheme, it seems like the team has a plan to work with the groceries that are in the cupboard while building up what they want to have in stock. 

There was an article talking about the defensive scheme and running a 3-4. It makes sense based on the personnel that we have in place, especially big ticket guys like Flowers and Collins. You could do salary dumps like I've proposed in my mock but if the Lions don't want to do that, they have to keep these guys around until 2022/2023. Collins can be released for next to nothing in 2022 and is a FA in 2023. Flowers frees up $18M in cap space in 2023 (FA in 2024). 

2021 is probably considered a wash, get experience and work on establishing the culture. Begin building up the foundations in 2022 (2 1st's) and adding to it in 2023 (2 1st's). 

[Superduperman]

I remember a quote from Wayne Fontes after the 1991 season where he said another coach told him, 'boy did you mess up going 12-4 (in his second full season as coach), you should have gone 9-7. now they'll expect that every year.'

Signs indicate that the Lions are going full rebuild, tear it down, the third season is where we're going to aim for ascending to that upper level. This deal reinforces that notion.

I have mixed feelings about watching a rebuild for the next two years but, in my quest to see the Lions do something different from every pattern they've followed over and over for so many years, I can only say this is at least honest and different from what they've done.

Edited February 1, 2021 by Superduperman

[Karnage84]

18 minutes ago, Superduperman said:

I remember a quote from Wayne Fontes after the 1991 season where he said another coach told him, 'boy did you mess up going 12-4 (in his second full season as coach), you should have gone 9-7. now they'll expect that every year.'

Signs indicate that the Lions are going full rebuild, tear it down, the third season is where we're going to aim for ascending to that upper level. This deal reinforces that notion.

I have mixed feelings about watching a rebuild for the next two years but, in my quest to see the Lions do something different from every pattern they've followed over and over for so many years, I can only say this is at least honest and different from what they've done.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/02/01/dan-campbell-i-want-to-win-now-but-not-at-the-expense-of-the-future/

Quote

“Of course I want to win now,” head coach Dan Campbell said in an interview with Chris Burke of TheAthletic.com. “Who doesn’t want to win now? And we’ll do whatever we can to win now, but not to sacrifice what we can become long term. I look at things two years out — I don’t look at them right now. I want to know where we can be two years from now, even possibly three years from now. I know that’s crazy in this business, but if you want to have long-term success, something you can sustain, something where we can create a winner here in the [NFC] North for a long period of time, you have to build it properly. You have to have building blocks. You have to have a core.”

Quote

I think we do ourselves a disservice and we do the fan base a disservice if we say we’re going all in, right now,” Campbell said. “Because you know what happens? You’re going to stink in Year 2, Year 3. You’re not going to sustain.”

 

[Sllim Pickens]

One thing both the Rams and Dorsey's teams have done is send picks for established players.  Maybe after this year we get our cap in a decent situation and we use those picks to get the next Jalen Ramsey, Dante Fowler, or OBJ who is disgruntled and wants to leave. That could be another reason we leaned towards the Rams offer given we now have the ability to get those guys without damaging our future much.  

[flyguy1609]

 

[Louis Friend]

I miss Suh 

[Karnage84]

14 minutes ago, flyguy1609 said:

 

The role of Ndamukong Suh played by Michael Scott

The role of Matthew Stafford played by Jim Halpert

The role of Jared Goff played by Stanley Hudson

The role of Detroit played by Peach Iced Tea

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by Karnage84

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

Good for Suh. What a legend.

[StLunatic88]

Hey there fellas, just wanted to pop in here (I saw jrry already making his presence known) and let you all know I’ll be lurking and chiming in every once in a while as long as you have Goff. 

Im a Rams fan from StL, and stuck with them after they took off mostly because of my attachment to the players, Goff being one of the main reasons.

I think you are all still getting a ton of talent (was all in on him out of college too) just needs to get in a better/different situation, especially if the plan for Campbell/Lynn is to start this team with the Run game and Swift. Not a lot to add right now, but hope you guys enjoy him, even if he isn’t your first choice of who to go with at QB. Even if its short term, and you make him look competent again, you might be able to flip him again for some even more draft capital (i.e. Sam Bradford)

[Karnage84]

1 minute ago, StLunatic88 said:

Hey there fellas, just wanted to pop in here (I saw jrry already making his presence known) and let you all know I’ll be lurking and chiming in every once in a while as long as you have Goff. 

Im a Rams fan from StL, and stuck with them after they took off mostly because of my attachment to the players, Goff being one of the main reasons.

I think you are all still getting a ton of talent (was all in on him out of college too) just needs to get in a better/different situation, especially if the plan for Campbell/Lynn is to start this team with the Run game and Swift. Not a lot to add right now, but hope you guys enjoy him, even if he isn’t your first choice of who to go with at QB. Even if its short term, and you make him look competent again, you might be able to flip him again for some even more draft capital (i.e. Sam Bradford)

Thanks for coming in and joining the party. It's actually nice to see someone pop in to support a guy that has just been traded. It does provide a little more optimism instead of assuming we're just punting for the next 2 years (even if we are going pretty hard into a rebuild).

Things obviously didn't work out in LA otherwise he'd still be there. What do you think went wrong and what kind of offense do you think Goff needs in order to regain form? Also of great importance - what kind of WR does Goff do best with? KG is a jump ball champion but struggles to gain separation. 

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

27 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

Hey there fellas, just wanted to pop in here (I saw jrry already making his presence known) and let you all know I’ll be lurking and chiming in every once in a while as long as you have Goff. 

Im a Rams fan from StL, and stuck with them after they took off mostly because of my attachment to the players, Goff being one of the main reasons.

I think you are all still getting a ton of talent (was all in on him out of college too) just needs to get in a better/different situation, especially if the plan for Campbell/Lynn is to start this team with the Run game and Swift. Not a lot to add right now, but hope you guys enjoy him, even if he isn’t your first choice of who to go with at QB. Even if its short term, and you make him look competent again, you might be able to flip him again for some even more draft capital (i.e. Sam Bradford)

Smart man.

Campbell and Lynn are both "run" guys, and we've got some pieces in place to potentially build an effective run-oriented offense. A running game (obviously) helps all quarterbacks, but I'm under the impression that Goff would be a good fit for such an offense.

Re-sign (or tag) Golladay and add another weapon. Perhaps that's a unit that can be relatively competitive in 2021.

[StLunatic88]

41 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

Thanks for coming in and joining the party. It's actually nice to see someone pop in to support a guy that has just been traded. It does provide a little more optimism instead of assuming we're just punting for the next 2 years (even if we are going pretty hard into a rebuild).

Yea, like I said, he’s my guy. Ive been behind him all the way back when it was the argument of Goff vs Wentz after we traded up for #1, so Ill be a fan of him forever, and now obviously of the Lions as long as he’s here. That is just to give you where these thoughts on him and the LA situation is coming from. I do feel like I can be reasonable about his faults and stuff too so I’m not going to just tell you you’re getting a HOF in the making either. He’s always been a stand up guy, and leader, who will always own up to his mistakes and from what Ive seen is always trying to get better. He got a bad rep to start from the Hard Knocks stuff, but to boil him down to that is just unfair

41 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

Things obviously didn't work out in LA otherwise he'd still be there. What do you think went wrong and what kind of offense do you think Goff needs in order to regain form? Also of great importance - what kind of WR does Goff do best with? KG is a jump ball champion but struggles to gain separation. 

So Ill be honest with you, he has picked up this tendency to try to play hero ball the last few seasons, and he just doesn’t have that type of style, so it always looked even worse when he did that (ala possibly the worst pick ever against Seattle) but when he plays within himself and the system, there aren’t many guys who execute better. Which admittedly does put a cap on him, but that cap is high enough that he can win games for you. Its going to be a very different type of player than Stafford, where we all know he has a howitzer for an arm, Goff is a lot more touch and anticipation, with the ability to throw just the most accurate passes, but can still put them in the small windows (you can see it in the GB game on the playoffs even with the bad thumb)

As to what happened in LA, Jared was to blame, but some how McVay is getting away Scott free in this situation (Rams forum hates when I bring this up). I think McVay felt like he got pantsed infront of the football world by BB in the Super Bowl, and instead of getting more creative and taking more risks with the offense, he turtled and started to look for shortcuts. He is still one of the best offensive minds, but instead of trusting Goff to work with him and evolve, he just started taking away opportunities that Goff might turn the ball over, and in turn took away any big play potential as well. We supposedly made the purposeful decision to get rid of a deep threat, allowing defenses to sit on everything intermediate and underneath. There’s more to that (looking for a running QB to freeze the defense) and we can get into it if you want, but Ill get back to Goff.

Most will tell you he needs play action, and obviouly that helps any QB, but that was also a result of the OL inability to keep him clean. If he has his feet clean, he is as deadly with his precision as they come. And while he isn’t a runner, he is still athletic and is actually very impressive on roll outs and bootlegs. But as soon as you knock him off his rhythm or a play completely breaks down, its basically anyone’s guess. That’s where the hero ball came in a lot, so if he can learn to “live to fight another day” and toss it away more or take the 6 yard gain on the little scramble, or even take a small sack, he will be much better off. But can he change his ways with that? Hopefully as he matures into he prime he can.

And your big question, WRs/Weapons. To start, he has never had a weapon in the NFL like Golladay. He wasn’t ever afraid to throw some contested passes to Watkins while he had him, but thats the closest he’s ever been to someone he can trust to win a jump ball. He was never shy to let one rip to Cooks, but thats very different. I do believe if he had a talent like KG, he wouldn’t hesitate to chuck it to him, it would be less often than (my perception) of how often Stafford would. He is best with reliable WRs, good route runners mostly. Robert Woods is the perfect WR for him, most will point to Kupp as his “go to” or “safety blanket” but it was truly Woods who he leaned the most on. He has never had a TE as good as TJ, but he made Higbee look like an all pro for 2 months at the end of last year, and he is no where close to Hock.

I know this was a lot, and I will be around here to get deep into it with you guys, and this does seem like a very glowing review, but he has all the tools. Just so much talent, which is why he was the #1 pick. His biggest issues are consistency, not making the dumb play, and what felt like the whole offense in LA fell into complacency, all things that should get better as he matures into the prime of his career.

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

Wow. Great information. Thanks for putting the work in.

[Karnage84]

25 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

Yea, like I said, he’s my guy. Ive been behind him all the way back when it was the argument of Goff vs Wentz after we traded up for #1, so Ill be a fan of him forever, and now obviously of the Lions as long as he’s here. That is just to give you where these thoughts on him and the LA situation is coming from. I do feel like I can be reasonable about his faults and stuff too so I’m not going to just tell you you’re getting a HOF in the making either. He’s always been a stand up guy, and leader, who will always own up to his mistakes and from what Ive seen is always trying to get better. He got a bad rep to start from the Hard Knocks stuff, but to boil him down to that is just unfair

So Ill be honest with you, he has picked up this tendency to try to play hero ball the last few seasons, and he just doesn’t have that type of style, so it always looked even worse when he did that (ala possibly the worst pick ever against Seattle) but when he plays within himself and the system, there aren’t many guys who execute better. Which admittedly does put a cap on him, but that cap is high enough that he can win games for you. Its going to be a very different type of player than Stafford, where we all know he has a howitzer for an arm, Goff is a lot more touch and anticipation, with the ability to throw just the most accurate passes, but can still put them in the small windows (you can see it in the GB game on the playoffs even with the bad thumb)

As to what happened in LA, Jared was to blame, but some how McVay is getting away Scott free in this situation (Rams forum hates when I bring this up). I think McVay felt like he got pantsed infront of the football world by BB in the Super Bowl, and instead of getting more creative and taking more risks with the offense, he turtled and started to look for shortcuts. He is still one of the best offensive minds, but instead of trusting Goff to work with him and evolve, he just started taking away opportunities that Goff might turn the ball over, and in turn took away any big play potential as well. We supposedly made the purposeful decision to get rid of a deep threat, allowing defenses to sit on everything intermediate and underneath. There’s more to that (looking for a running QB to freeze the defense) and we can get into it if you want, but Ill get back to Goff.

Most will tell you he needs play action, and obviouly that helps any QB, but that was also a result of the OL inability to keep him clean. If he has his feet clean, he is as deadly with his precision as they come. And while he isn’t a runner, he is still athletic and is actually very impressive on roll outs and bootlegs. But as soon as you knock him off his rhythm or a play completely breaks down, its basically anyone’s guess. That’s where the hero ball came in a lot, so if he can learn to “live to fight another day” and toss it away more or take the 6 yard gain on the little scramble, or even take a small sack, he will be much better off. But can he change his ways with that? Hopefully as he matures into he prime he can.

And your big question, WRs/Weapons. To start, he has never had a weapon in the NFL like Golladay. He wasn’t ever afraid to throw some contested passes to Watkins while he had him, but thats the closest he’s ever been to someone he can trust to win a jump ball. He was never shy to let one rip to Cooks, but thats very different. I do believe if he had a talent like KG, he wouldn’t hesitate to chuck it to him, it would be less often than (my perception) of how often Stafford would. He is best with reliable WRs, good route runners mostly. Robert Woods is the perfect WR for him, most will point to Kupp as his “go to” or “safety blanket” but it was truly Woods who he leaned the most on. He has never had a TE as good as TJ, but he made Higbee look like an all pro for 2 months at the end of last year, and he is no where close to Hock.

I know this was a lot, and I will be around here to get deep into it with you guys, and this does seem like a very glowing review, but he has all the tools. Just so much talent, which is why he was the #1 pick. His biggest issues are consistency, not making the dumb play, and what felt like the whole offense in LA fell into complacency, all things that should get better as he matures into the prime of his career.

This is an awesome breakdown. Thanks a ton for all of the insight. Looking forward to seeing you get involved in our discussions around here. More information is always better to have. 

I'm a value kind of guy. If I'm going to spend money on something, I want to feel like I'm getting good value. It makes me question whether KG is a $16M - $18M/year type of WR, especially in a Goff-led offense. Kenny is probably the perfect WR (although could have been better with a bit more separation) for Stafford and the vertical attack. I'm not a super technical guy so maybe I'm off here but I don't think of Kenny as this incredible route runner. Great hands and great body control but I'm not sure he's "Mr. Footwork". Josh Reynolds is a guy that has been floated around as a potential target in FA (even pre-Stafford/Goff trade). Thoughts on pairing him back up again with Goff in Detroit?

[StLunatic88]

6 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Wow. Great information. Thanks for putting the work in.

Absolutely, like @jrry32has been harping on, you give him a good IOL and he will make the rest work. You add a good Run Game to that and you will see some fun stuff.