Covid-19 News/Discussion

[titanrick]

11 minutes ago, Shanedorf said:

This sort of argument has been going on since Spring of 2020- and unfortunately it often falls within the realm of COVID being a hoax. So certain people have gone after the rules around "cause of death".

There are high stakes involved in "cause of death" in terms of insurance and liability so there will be lawyers. In the case of the murder-suicide..if they mark it down as a suicide- then the heirs can't collect on any life insurance whereas if its listed as COVID- they can collect. What's the right answer ? Depends on your POV

People with cancer often die of a different disease because their cancer treatments wipe out their immune systems
So did they die of pneumonia or cancer ? Its difficult to assign it to one or the other. I do agree with the concept of being consistent, but I doubt you're going to reach any consensus on what the consistent rules should be given that each person/disease is different and each state/county have different people running them.

The battles over this stuff will force MDs and coroners to review how things are done in each state, so maybe some good will come of it.

But the battle between over-reported and under-reported is very COVID -specific... which offers some insight into  where this is coming from. Nobody is leading a jihad against over/under reporting of cancer deaths, heart attack deaths or any others. Just COVID. Gee, I wonder why ?

So- yes- in come cases over, while in Florida they are systematically under- reporting because that's important to certain politicians.

There is no perfect answer here and you can reasonably say that both under/over are happening.

Really appreciate the detailed response.  I do not think COVID is a hoax but it's concerning to me that it has become so politicized (on both sides of the aisle) that the truth is often hard to find.  And of course googling answers puts me at the mercy of the Google algorithms which will try to determine which answers are most likely to keep me browsing more, truth be damned.  If I talk to someone about it, I find my brain splitting its time 50/50 between listening to their answer and trying to figure out if I'm talking to a left-wing or right-wing nutjob.

I would argue that no one is leading a jihad against the number of cancer deaths because no one is using the number to justify laws forcing people to get shots.  I got the vaccine myself.  So did my entire family.  But I think the concept of people being fired for refusing it is a different matter entirely.  And if the justification for that includes these figures of deaths where murder/suicides, car accidents, gunshots, etc are counted as COVID deaths?  It becomes easier to see where the widespread motivation for jihad comes from, even if I don't agree with all of their reasons.

Very frustrating.

[MookieMonstah]

1 minute ago, DontTazeMeBro said:

 

I’m not talking about not getting it bad. That’s normal. Testing negative a few days after getting it is extraordinary. 

It happens quite often. Its not extraordinary at all. It's quite possible, and likely, he was tested near the end of the exposure window and had already had it for 7-8 days. It's such a simple minded take to think that means Joe Rogan found some miracle cure. I legitimately don't understand how people believe crap like this.

[MWil23]

3 minutes ago, DontTazeMeBro said:

Testing negative a few days after getting it is extraordinary.

Not really considering symptoms present at different times of being positive. Last year, I had no smell or taste, and got a negative test despite my wife testing positive.

Apparently that glass of bourbon and those boneless wings helped when I realized I had no sense of taste or smell...

[MookieMonstah]

1 minute ago, titanrick said:

Really appreciate the detailed response.  I do not think COVID is a hoax but it's concerning to me that it has become so politicized (on both sides of the aisle) that the truth is often hard to find.  And of course googling answers puts me at the mercy of the Google algorithms which will try to determine which answers are most likely to keep me browsing more, truth be damned.  If I talk to someone about it, I find my brain splitting its time 50/50 between listening to their answer and trying to figure out if I'm talking to a left-wing or right-wing nutjob.

I would argue that no one is leading a jihad against the number of cancer deaths because no one is using the number to justify laws forcing people to get shots.  I got the vaccine myself.  So did my entire family.  But I think the concept of people being fired for refusing it is a different matter entirely.  And if the justification for that includes these figures of deaths where murder/suicides, car accidents, gunshots, etc are counted as COVID deaths?  It becomes easier to see where the widespread motivation for jihad comes from, even if I don't agree with all of their reasons.

Very frustrating.

Its a very simple answer.

 

What possible reason would the government have for wanting people to get this vaccine outside of the stop COVID reason?

[MWil23]

2 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said:

Its a very simple answer.

 

What possible reason would the government have for wanting people to get this vaccine outside of the stop COVID reason?

I mean, let's not pretend lobbyists and big pharma aren't a thing, but I agree with you on this.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

3 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

I mean, let's not pretend lobbyists and big pharma aren't a thing, but I agree with you on this.

So I guess the argument there would be lobbyists are trying to lobby for a vaccine that doesn't work, despite it being clinically proven to work? Like, it still doesn't add up. Lobbyists can still exist within the simple reality that the government doesn't want people to die.

[-Hope-]

17 minutes ago, Rich7sena said:

Accomplish things? As in not die?

yeah, didn't you hear? how your body reacts to covid is a reflection of your character. it's all about individual responsibility, my man.

[MWil23]

Just now, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

So I guess the argument there would be lobbyists are trying to lobby for a vaccine that doesn't work, despite it being clinically proven to work? Like, it still doesn't add up. Lobbyists can still exist within the simple reality that the government doesn't want people to die.

Like I said, I am in agreement that it doesn't make sense. I can agree that it doesn't make sense and that Big Pharma is an absolute succubus, along with their morally bankrupt lobbyists. 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

Just now, MWil23 said:

Like I said, I am in agreement that it doesn't make sense. I can agree that it doesn't make sense and that Big Pharma is an absolute succubus, along with their morally bankrupt lobbyists. 

Yeah and I would just say that this falls under "a broken clock is right twice a day" kinda thing. They are absolute scum of the Earth but in this case the thing they're lobbying for is literally stopping more people from dying.

[titanrick]

3 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said:

What possible reason would the government have for wanting people to get this vaccine outside of the stop COVID reason?

The government wants everyone to get the flu shot each year too.  But they don't fire people who refuse it.  It seems to me that the basis for ramping up the governmental coercion is based on how deadly this virus is, which is based on the number of deaths, hospitalizations, etc.

[MookieMonstah]

2 minutes ago, titanrick said:

The government wants everyone to get the flu shot each year too.  But they don't fire people who refuse it.  It seems to me that the basis for ramping up the governmental coercion is based on how deadly this virus is, which is based on the number of deaths, hospitalizations, etc.

I mean, please don't compare COVID to the Flu. Has the Flu ever had MASSIVE economic repercussions? Has the Flu mutated rapidly and killed three quarters of a million people over a two year span?

 

I mean, come on man haha. This is nothing like the Flu so it shouldn't be compared to the flu. This also isn't the first Vaccine that will be mandated, and it won't be the last. 

[titanrick]

Just now, MookieMonstah said:

I mean, please don't compare COVID to the Flu. Has the Flu ever had MASSIVE economic repercussions? Has the Flu mutated rapidly and killed three quarters of a million people over a two year span?

 

I mean, come on man haha. This is nothing like the Flu so it shouldn't be compared to the flu. This also isn't the first Vaccine that will be mandated, and it won't be the last. 

You sound very dismissive and condescending.  I don't know if you intend to sound that way or not.  I suppose if your intent is to have like-minded individuals congratulate you on your beliefs, this works well.  If you want to have an honest discussion with people who may not agree with all of your opinions (and actually change someone's mind), this approach does not work well.

The only differences you named between the flu and COVID were the number of deaths, which was exactly my point, and "economic repercussions".  I don't know how many dollars each life is worth so I can't speak to that.

[MookieMonstah]

8 minutes ago, titanrick said:

You sound very dismissive and condescending.  I don't know if you intend to sound that way or not.  I suppose if your intent is to have like-minded individuals congratulate you on your beliefs, this works well.  If you want to have an honest discussion with people who may not agree with all of your opinions (and actually change someone's mind), this approach does not work well.

The only differences you named between the flu and COVID were the number of deaths, which was exactly my point, and "economic repercussions".  I don't know how many dollars each life is worth so I can't speak to that.

It's not about lives equaling dollars. COVID caused MASSIVE damage to supply chains, the stock market, the job market. The Flu has never done anything close to that, at least not in our lifetime. It's silly to compare COVID to the Flu. It's like comparing the common cold to AIDS.

[Shanedorf]

18 minutes ago, titanrick said:

And if the justification for that includes these figures of deaths where murder/suicides, car accidents, gunshots, etc are counted as COVID deaths?  It becomes easier to see where the widespread motivation for jihad comes from, even if I don't agree with all of their reasons.

Very frustrating.

Big Picture: Does it matter if 750,000 people died from COVID or only 687,213 ? Is COVID somehow less of a threat to society based on those numbers ? I understand and appreciate what you're saying here and it is frustrating - but I'm not understanding how parsing the numbers actually changes anything in real life. Its not an election, there isn't a threshold of deaths to "win" the argument or carry a state. So fighting over the exact numbers seems a fools errand, especially for a novel virus. There will be some patients who die from lung scarring as the result of their COVID infection, but they may die 3 years from now during a bout with the flu. Is that a COVID death ?

If only 328,878 people died from COVID - does that mean nobody needs to get vaccinated ?
What's the magic number of deaths where mandating a safe & effective vaccine is warranted ?

That's an interesting conversation and I suspect you'd get a wide range of answers to that question depending on who you asked.

[OkeyDoke21]

This thread turns toxic so fast.