NFL Snooze News: Volume Four, Por Favor

[Cearbhall]

16 minutes ago, JDBrocks said:

False equivalence - comparing the spread of influenza to COVID

Red Herring - eSports as the replacement of live athletic competition

Straw man - Masks as threat to "freedom"

I disagree that comparing the spread of COVID to influenza is a false equivalence. They are both deadly (on the same order of magnitude) viruses spread in much the same fashion.

I'll withdraw the remark about eSports. That doesn't change what I was asking. I'll also willing to withdraw the comment about masks as a threat to freedom for now; that is a whole separate discussion.

Thanks for pointing out which parts of what I said you were talking about so that it doesn't look like you are invalidating the whole post. I am left with this:

 

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but there will never be a time that people won't die over watching the sportsball game given the nature of the microbrial world. People have been spreading influenza that kills people for years while watching sportsball games. Given that reality, are you in favor of sportsball never again being allowed to have fans watch live? Sportsball never again being allowed to happen since players can spread deadly diseases?

Edited July 8, 2020 by Cearbhall

[JDBrocks]

1 minute ago, Cearbhall said:

I disagree that comparing the spread of COVID to influenza is a false equivalence. They are both deadly (on the same order of magnitude) viruses spread in much the same fashion.

I'll withdraw the remark about eSports. That doesn't change what I was asking. I'll also willing to withdraw the comment about masks as a threat to freedom for now.

Thanks for pointing out which parts of what I said you were talking about so that it doesn't look like you are invalidating the whole post. I am left with this:

 

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but there will never be a time that people won't die over watching the sportsball game given the nature of the microbrial world. People have been spreading influenza that kills people for years while watching sportsball games. Given that reality, are you in favor of sportsball never again being allowed to have fans watch live? Sportsball never again being allowed to happen since players can spread deadly diseases?

It is a false equivalence. They are not the same - they do not spread with the same efficiency, do not have the same toll on the health care system, do not have even close to the same mortality rates, and do not have the same lasting impact on those that survive. 

[Cearbhall]

6 minutes ago, JDBrocks said:

It is a false equivalence. They are not the same - they do not spread with the same efficiency, do not have the same toll on the health care system, do not have even close to the same mortality rates, and do not have the same lasting impact on those that survive. 

So now we are talking about what the virus does in particular? Your response to me was just related to death, not the toll on the health system and such:

"Long enough that people won't die over watching a sportsball game."

The death rate of SARS-CoV-2 and the flu look to be quite similar -- maybe within a factor of 2. You might also note that you were also not arguing death rate, but chance of death at all. Into that argument, the flu is very relevant and not a false equivalence.

[JDBrocks]

No. Scientists, epidemiologists, public health advisors, etc. have all agreed and demonstrated that this is *not* like the flu, and should not be treated the same. I'm not interested in arguing about Covid in general anymore though. 

Back to the main point - the players should tell the NFL to kick rocks if they want them to play at any amount of reduced salary.

[swede700]

6 minutes ago, JDBrocks said:

No. Scientists, epidemiologists, public health advisors, etc. have all agreed and demonstrated that this is *not* like the flu, and should not be treated the same. I'm not interested in arguing about Covid in general anymore though. 

Back to the main point - the players should tell the NFL to kick rocks if they want them to play at any amount of reduced salary.

The only thing I disagree with you on is the fact that I think that football will still go on in some form.  I understand that the potentiality of an outbreak is likely higher in a football environment, but I also think that they'll figure out how to mitigate the risk to the best that they can until the vaccine arrives sometime next year.  There's far too much money at stake now and in the near future (as any loss of revenue this year impacts players' salaries down the road) to just cancel it altogether.  Whatever needs to be done to make it happen will be done.  

[Cearbhall]

26 minutes ago, swede700 said:

There's far too much money at stake now and in the near future (as any loss of revenue this year impacts players' salaries down the road) to just cancel it altogether.  Whatever needs to be done to make it happen will be done.  

The quoted portion is the number one reason that, fear-mongering aside, the NFL will play this year in some form this year IMO. That said, @JDBrocks has a very salient point that the players have no reason to agree to play for less money. I really doubt they do that they take anything less. They may, however, be amenable to adjusting accounting in order to keep the salary cap for future years from dropping precipitously as that is in their interest. A cap that drops 25% next year would not be good for the players and I am sure they know that. Beyond whether it is good for them, the union leadership will not want to preside over such a drop so they'll be motivated to work with the NFL to some extent. 

[Ozzy]

1 hour ago, JDBrocks said:

No. Scientists, epidemiologists, public health advisors, etc. have all agreed and demonstrated that this is *not* like the flu, and should not be treated the same. I'm not interested in arguing about Covid in general anymore though. 

Back to the main point - the players should tell the NFL to kick rocks if they want them to play at any amount of reduced salary.

Exactly, the flu never caused the type of complete societal change.  Just think, a year ago about seeing the flu shut down all sports, all restaurants, all movie theaters, large concerts any major flight and basically any large gathering.  The measures taken with COVID 19 to me proves it is not just some flu and will run the course.  The NBA alone lost well over $1 billion dollars because of the virus, not to mention the financial world impact on the virus.  It is not something to be taken lightly.  Remember a few months ago when some argued the Swine flu is worse than COVID 19.  Yeah right.  

 

Not arguing with you @Cearbhall you are a math dude in the medical community and maybe have more insight on it then me.  PS apparently 50% of the ICU bed availability in Florida is at 100% capacity, I am no expert but that type of thing when it gets worse like in NY literally can shut down a society.

 

That being said, if the players are asked to take less pay why would they not do it?  If the alternative is getting zero pay.  You would rather get zero than say $500,000 of a $1 million contract in a season with less work, less games and less advertising revenue for the organization?  They get paid that because people pay money to go to the game, eat food, park, buy merchandise not to mention flying to the game, staying at a hotel and eating out.  If all of that is gone they then do not deserve to get paid that much because the league itself is not making as much potentially.  Maybe that is not accurate completely I never looked at the numbers, but a stadium empty of fans is obviously not making as much as when it is full.  And if the alternative is zero dollars, I doubt many would take it.  If anything players might not play without full pay because of the risks involved in playing and potentially getting infected and having to stay away from family for months.  The NBA attempt at restarting will show a lot of what football will or will not be this fall.  If players do not play it is not a pay thing it is a risk thing.  Bet even the special teams guys would play for less because they are not the big time contract guys, sure someone getting $20 mil a year for 10 years can say I am not playing for less because he already has tons.  

[JDBrocks]

1 minute ago, Ozzy said:

That being said, if the players are asked to take less pay why would they not do it?  If the alternative is getting zero pay.  You would rather get zero than say $500,000 of a $1 million contract in a season with less work, less games and less advertising revenue for the organization?  They get paid that because people pay money to go to the game, eat food, park, buy merchandise not to mention flying to the game, staying at a hotel and eating out.  If all of that is gone they then do not deserve to get paid that much because the league itself is not making as much potentially.  Maybe that is not accurate completely I never looked at the numbers, but a stadium empty of fans is obviously not making as much as when it is full.  And if the alternative is zero dollars, I doubt many would take it.  If anything players might not play without full pay because of the risks involved in playing and potentially getting infected and having to stay away from family for months.  The NBA attempt at restarting will show a lot of what football will or will not be this fall.  If players do not play it is not a pay thing it is a risk thing.  Bet even the special teams guys would play for less because they are not the big time contract guys, sure someone getting $20 mil a year for 10 years can say I am not playing for less because he already has tons.  

Players agree to contracts that are real dollar amounts, not percentages based on revenue. It's not the players' fault that the owners run a business that is, in part, tied to fandom. The players do not owe the owners any concessions. If the league is going to experience financial hardship, then they should have planned better.

And yes, the added risk is precisely why the players wouldn't play. Why should they go do the same job that they did last year for less money with more risk? The point of signing a contract with guaranteed money is that you are guaranteed to acquire exactly that much money. If players were willing to hold out over the CBA, you can bet they'll be willing to hold out over billionaire owners wanting to withhold pay while asking players to assume all of the additional health risks. 

[Ozzy]

1 minute ago, JDBrocks said:

Players agree to contracts that are real dollar amounts, not percentages based on revenue. It's not the players' fault that the owners run a business that is, in part, tied to fandom. The players do not owe the owners any concessions. If the league is going to experience financial hardship, then they should have planned better.

And yes, the added risk is precisely why the players wouldn't play. Why should they go do the same job that they did last year for less money with more risk? The point of signing a contract with guaranteed money is that you are guaranteed to acquire exactly that much money. If players were willing to hold out over the CBA, you can bet they'll be willing to hold out over billionaire owners wanting to withhold pay while asking players to assume all of the additional health risks. 

Very true.  Still going through all this, anyone in the entertainment industry is damn lucky to even have a job to be quite honest.  People pay money to watch you play a game, sing a song or act in a film.  That is a blessing because in all reality it is not escentual, it is just entertainment.  

If I were them, I would take anything I could get because clearly if the **** hits the fan again, they do not have a job.  And some money is better than no money if it comes down to one or the other.   

 

Granted it does allow an escape and a release for people that do have some crap *** hard physical and or emotional jobs.  So in that regard sports, acting and singing is really quite great because it at least offers something great than money, when on paper it really offers little to nothing other than entertainment and dollars spent.  But looking deeper especially in terms of more artistic things it offers hope.  To zone out to a great song you bought for a dollar is clearly worth more than that dollar it costs, and it can be a feeling that will last just like watching a great athletic performance that brought hope and inspired those who watched it.    

[Cearbhall]

20 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Remember a few months ago when some argued the Swine flu is worse than COVID 19.  Yeah right.

I don't doubt this.

Remember a few months ago when major health bodies were saying that the mortality rate was over 3%? Yeah right.

There have been so many things that have been proven wrong that none of it should be taken at face value. The most suspect IMO are the statements made to stir up fear to push an agenda.

22 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

That being said, if the players are asked to take less pay why would they not do it?  If the alternative is getting zero pay.

The alternative is not getting zero pay. The CBA guarantees the players a certain percentage of revenues. Player contracts will be paid for the full season once the season starts as long as the players do not agree to something else. Where the players will be effected is on the cap next year, which is based on the revenue this year. This is what will motivate them.

[Cearbhall]

30 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

PS apparently 50% of the ICU bed availability in Florida is at 100% capacity, I am no expert but that type of thing when it gets worse like in NY literally can shut down a society.

I agree that their ought to be metrics in place. Zero threat of death, as espoused by JDBrocks, is not the right metric IMO. Fwiw, I do not think that the metrics should be specific to COVID. 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Cearbhall

[JDBrocks]

Flame on, my man.

[Cearbhall]

 

2 minutes ago, JDBrocks said:

Flame on, my man.

?

Do you know what flaming is?

[Ozzy]

4 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

I don't doubt this.

Remember a few months ago when major health bodies were saying that the mortality rate was over 3%? Yeah right.

There have been so many things that have been proven wrong that none of it should be taken at face value. The most suspect IMO are the statements made to stir up fear to push an agenda.

The alternative is not getting zero pay. The CBA guarantees the players a certain percentage of revenues. Player contracts will be paid for the full season once the season starts as long as the players do not agree to something else. Where the players will be effected is on the cap next year, which is based on the revenue this year. This is what will motivate them.

Stir fear and push agenda?  What Agenda is that?  You think COVID 19 is not that serious and all these countries are shutting things down for no reason?  

That is correct, the misinformation out there is awful, honestly CNN and Fox News should be both blocked, neither one are doing any good and are just ripping the nation right in two honestly.  Both have their side and they stick right to it and insult each other back and forth as they go, then again they are just reporting the circus they see in politices.  Great model for the youth of the country, watching narcissistic ******* lead the country and argue back and forth with anyone he disagrees with. 

 

Exactly, if the CBA guarantees certain percentage of revenue, then less revenue, which there will absolutely be, then that equals less pay does it not?  Last time I checked NFL contracts are crap compared to say NBA contracts unlike many NFL contracts where guys can be cut easily without many repercussions for the organization.  Hell the Pacers are still paying Monta Ellis and he has not played in the NBA since 2016-17 season, and he will be paid around $2.2 million a year till 2022.  That does not really happen in the NFL it seems.  Either way those dudes will be lucky to even have a season to play in potentially.  

[Cearbhall]

1 minute ago, Ozzy said:

Stir fear and push agenda?  What Agenda is that? 

Right now the agenda is mostly election year politics, but we can't talk about politics here so I am unable to answer your question. Sorry.