2022 DRAFT THREAD - QB’s Wanted

[ripsean21]

45 minutes ago, offbyone said:

Scherff is always injured.  He is not the best guard in the game.  If you continue to pay him like that we will not be able to keep other players.  He is much more replaceable.  I never noticed him gone with Schweitzer in.  You need to know when to move on.  That time was last year.  He had 2 years now to sign long term and didn't want to.  We can't pay him 17-18M a year.  He is not getting younger and more healthy.

I think it’s pretty noticeable in the run game and especially in the pass pro. And not that this ever matters unless your a QB but the team wins and is better with Brandon on the field. No he’s not Quinten Nelson. But Nelson plays next to a first round center and other premier OL. It’s the same with anything else. You will never be the best unless you have talent around you that compliments yours. When we had Trent and Brandon we were pretty legit. He’s had the same MCL sprain different knees each of the last 3 seasons they weren’t all the same knee is what I mean. Brandon made Chase and Moses better as a unit. Brandon next to Cosmi and Chase with another premier talent and he can show he is one of the top 3 guards in the league because he is that player.

We want to be a ground and pound team. You don’t upgrade that dept letting a All pro level player leave  and only getting a 3rd round comp in return maybe. You eventually have to learn from mistakes. Brandon’s agent is the one who pushes his players to do these 2 year franchise tags to maximize their value. Brandon is going to get that type of money because he’s actually worthy of it. You don’t let guys go that are actually worth the money. Basically what you said is Nelson is worth 18 then nobody else is. That’s not how deals work. If we were gonna let him walk we needed to trade him any of these last seasons before the deadline. Pay him. His play has earned it. And look around the league. Lineman miss games. Guys get banged up. The guy is a warrior. Pay him he’s earned it here. We will continue to earn it.

Edited December 20, 2021 by ripsean21

[turtle28]

5 minutes ago, ripsean21 said:

I think it’s pretty noticeable in the run game and especially in the pass pro. And not that this ever matters unless your a QB but the team wins and is better with Brandon on the field. No he’s not Quinten Nelson. But Nelson plays next to a first round center and other premier OL. It’s the same with anything else. You will never be the best unless you have talent around you that compliments yours. When we had Trent and Brandon we were pretty legit. He’s had the same MCL sprain different knees each of the last 3 seasons they weren’t all the same knee is what I mean. Brandon made Chase and Moses better as a unit. Brandon next to Cosmi and Chase with another premier talent and he can show he is one of the top 3 guards in the league because he is that player.

It’s not that Scherff isn’t good, it’s that he’s oft injured and not worth his contract.

Edited December 20, 2021 by turtle28

[ripsean21]

1 minute ago, turtle28 said:

It’s not that Scherff isn’t good, it’s that he’s oft injured and not worth his contract.

The improvement in our wins, rushing and sacks with and without him says differently. This guy has been knocked since the selection over Leonard Williams. But he’s a really good football player. I’d pay him because there’s nobody else on the OL besides Chase that’s making impactful money. So I pay him and build the trenches around him just like we did Allen. Allen was oft injured. It’s football. Injuries happen in the trenches especially.

You don’t improve letting your best players go. We have moved backwards or laterally for 30 years now!!! Eventually we have to apply lessons and build it up. Letting him go and paying a lesser player close is a mistake; ex-(Kirk/Alex)Letting him walk unless Charles is something more then he’s shown but that’s doubtful is a mistake; ex(Trent/Christian)Drafting one and not adding it with Brandon is a mistake; ex- basically Ryan Kerrigans whole career. This team can’t afford to keep letting the best talents go elsewhere and creating holes. Or we will never compete in any of their deals no matter what super QB we could possibly find if that’s how we keep running this team.

[MikeT14]

1 hour ago, ripsean21 said:

The improvement in our wins

Scherff

2015: 9-7
2016: 8-7-1
2017: 6-8
2018: 5-3
2019: 3-8 
2020: 7-6
2021: 6-3

44-42-1

 

[ripsean21]

15 minutes ago, MikeT14 said:

Scherff

2015: 9-7
2016: 8-7-1
2017: 6-8
2018: 5-3
2019: 3-8 
2020: 7-6
2021: 6-3

44-42-1

 

So translate that to the team record and the overall talent and dysfunction top to bottom of this team. Does anybody in recent memory on the field with us have a winning record or even 50-50?

The wins were really a moot point what the point was we’re actually competitive because our OL actually produces results in the running game where when we run we are actually competing. I’m just saying I know he’s the worse guard because he was a top 5 pick and Leonard Williams ended up becoming Lawrence Taylor so why would we want this hack right? He’s a really really good football player. With some actual top level guys around him and I think he is top 2 all day long at his position. I mean we’re legit fielding a cast off left side and we have good depth. Depth is important. But when your starter goes down and the backup is just as good you have one of two things. A backup starting and needed upgrade or a really good backup who should see the field more. Brandon is the best OL on this team and he is amount the best in the game.

All I know is good teams don’t let their best lineman walk. how are we supposed to build a better line letting him walk? We could let him walk if we had of kept picking and developing OL since his pick or in the last two years. But you let him go now and we’re supposed to field a OL full of Jags, cast offs, and we as fans want us to get a QB and develop him without Brandon!?!?!? Cool let’s draft one of these undersized, needs work, and coaching guys and then wonder why he’s hurt and not developing. This is what we’ve been doing. The truth is right now until we find and have to PAY a QB none of our true top players should even be considered replaceable without having someone on the roster close or worthy of the position.

Edited December 20, 2021 by ripsean21

[ripsean21]

Back to topic though I’m watching this Liberty EMichigan game again and Willis had himself as good of a game as he could have to head into the seniorbowl. Looking forward to the seniorbowl because I have just had this feeling since the draft Willis is the reason they didn’t trade up one Trey Lance was taken as high as he was.

[taylor made]

3 hours ago, MikeT14 said:

Scherff

2015: 9-7
2016: 8-7-1
2017: 6-8
2018: 5-3
2019: 3-8 
2020: 7-6
2021: 6-3

44-42-1

 

That doesn't mean much without the second part: (Games without Scherff)

2017: 1-1

2018: 2-6

2019: 0-5

2020: 0-3

2021: 0-4

3-19

[Vladimir L]

Tyler Huntley Might be an option but our coach doesn’t have running plays

[ripsean21]

2 hours ago, taylor made said:

That doesn't mean much without the second part: (Games without Scherff)

2017: 1-1

2018: 2-6

2019: 0-5

2020: 0-3

2021: 0-4

3-19

Thanks for adding that because that’s basically what I meant. Without knowing the record or looking either up with him we are where we are now. He is the heart and soul of our OL. He’s not the problem and if I’m signing him it’s a front loaded deal as far as guarantees go so we could address a replacement in the near future so we’re not stuck in this situation. The problem on this team isn’t depth outside of LB. The point was adding a top end player on the OL to get better so we could groom a QB. And to groom a QB I don’t think getting rid of the first All pro Snyder has ever had is a good place to start.

[lavar703]

I’m not sure if it’s the QB or the coach but I owe Ron Rivera an apology. Justin Fields is horrible. He made the right call not moving up for him. I was completely wrong on that one. 

[offbyone]

11 hours ago, ripsean21 said:

I think it’s pretty noticeable in the run game and especially in the pass pro. And not that this ever matters unless your a QB but the team wins and is better with Brandon on the field. No he’s not Quinten Nelson. But Nelson plays next to a first round center and other premier OL. It’s the same with anything else. You will never be the best unless you have talent around you that compliments yours. When we had Trent and Brandon we were pretty legit. He’s had the same MCL sprain different knees each of the last 3 seasons they weren’t all the same knee is what I mean. Brandon made Chase and Moses better as a unit. Brandon next to Cosmi and Chase with another premier talent and he can show he is one of the top 3 guards in the league because he is that player.

We want to be a ground and pound team. You don’t upgrade that dept letting a All pro level player leave  and only getting a 3rd round comp in return maybe. You eventually have to learn from mistakes. Brandon’s agent is the one who pushes his players to do these 2 year franchise tags to maximize their value. Brandon is going to get that type of money because he’s actually worthy of it. You don’t let guys go that are actually worth the money. Basically what you said is Nelson is worth 18 then nobody else is. That’s not how deals work. If we were gonna let him walk we needed to trade him any of these last seasons before the deadline. Pay him. His play has earned it. And look around the league. Lineman miss games. Guys get banged up. The guy is a warrior. Pay him he’s earned it here. We will continue to earn it.

I disagree.  Again I see limited difference when Schweitzer is playing.  Well I take that back, Scherff always has at least one critical penalty per game.

So lets play this out, you sign Scherff for a 18M/year 5 year contract.  Considering he has already been happy to screw us with 2 years of franchise tags, you can bet the contract won't be friendly and will have huge guarantees. 

Next year, maybe we get our 18 million worth but do you think we will over the 4 years after that?  Do really think he is going to stay healthy enough to be worth it?  At some point the cap comes into play.  For instance, no way you spend that kind of money on a guard that is only partially available and pay a real franchise qb.  

[4209]

16 hours ago, turtle28 said:

Yes, Ekwonu.

@turtle28Been away for awhile but I just looked the guy and yes his name is Ikem Ekwonu. I think it was the Miami or the Clemson game. Only saw him one time but he does stand out. Would like to see him more though.

 

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by 4209

[4209]

15 hours ago, ripsean21 said:

Yeah. This guy is nasty. I just think we can seriously improve this OL. I don’t think the OL is bad. I think the coaches do a heck of a job. But we need another premier talent on the OL if we’re going to consistently run the ball and protect the QB. While our OL grades out well. When we go up against defenses with premier front 7’s you see a huge difference. I think the thing about this team is we have enough talent to stay in any game and win half of them. I think we’ve won to many games to get him. But there are so many OL players I do like. Penning is a stud. A smaller school guy. 

 

@ripsean21Yeap I just found out his name Ikem Ekwonu. Only saw him play one time but man I do remember a block he made in a game. It definitely stood out.  I live in the south so I see more of the games down here. But I concur with your thoughts on the OL. They have a good OT down the  at Texas A&M name Kenyon Green. I made this statement along time ago but if I was building a team you start in the trenches on sides of the LOS. 

[e16bball]

14 hours ago, lavar703 said:

I’m not sure if it’s the QB or the coach but I owe Ron Rivera an apology. Justin Fields is horrible. He made the right call not moving up for him. I was completely wrong on that one. 

Yikes, if you’re bailing on Fields after 10 games in that trash offense, we’re gonna have to find a special seatbelt to keep you on board for more than a few weeks of one of these guys we’re looking at in this draft. 

Corral is coming from an offense where everything is made easy for him, from the reads to the throws. I really think it’s a tricky transition for him — he’ll need to be very sharp to successfully move from middle school to grad school in one offseason. It’s a similar thing with Willis, except that Corral is currently better at what he does, so it’ll likely be even trickier for Willis.

Howell’s processing seems absolutely glacial at times, and if he tries running in the NFL like he has in college this year — upright, slow, down the center of the field, unconcerned about taking on contact — someone is going to cut him in half. I probably like his arm the best of any of them, all things considered, but he just doesn’t get the ball out well. Everyone talks about how bad the OL play was, but he took a sack on a shockingly high percentage of his pressured snaps. Hard to imagine him quickly managing all the disguises and tricks the NFL will throw at him. 

The things that will give these guys a chance (if they come here) is having Heinicke on board for another season — so they don’t necessarily have to play — and the fact that we’ve already got decent offensive talent with experience in the system. McLaurin, Samuel, Thomas, Gibson, and McKissic is pretty solid group of skill talent, and even more importantly, we should be able to put a pretty quality OL out there. At least it probably won’t be a disaster, which is absolutely crucial for a young QB.

Edited December 21, 2021 by e16bball

[e16bball]

13 hours ago, offbyone said:

I disagree.  Again I see limited difference when Schweitzer is playing.  Well I take that back, Scherff always has at least one critical penalty per game.

So lets play this out, you sign Scherff for a 18M/year 5 year contract.  Considering he has already been happy to screw us with 2 years of franchise tags, you can bet the contract won't be friendly and will have huge guarantees. 

Next year, maybe we get our 18 million worth but do you think we will over the 4 years after that?  Do really think he is going to stay healthy enough to be worth it?  At some point the cap comes into play.  For instance, no way you spend that kind of money on a guard that is only partially available and pay a real franchise qb.  

So here’s my question, and I’m genuinely asking: at what point does the “with and without you” record become too hard to deny?

At this point, based on the numbers compiled by @MikeT14 and @taylor made, they’re 27-28 (.491) with Scherff and 3-19 (.136) without him since 2017. That’s...a pretty staggering difference. Fringe playoff team with him and Lions/Texans/Jaguars without him. And he’s missed games in each of those seasons, so it’s not like it’s mostly just one year where everything collapsed around the time he went out — it’s a pretty comprehensive, long-term cross-section. 

For years, I have completely agreed with you. You can’t pay a guy that much money at a non-premium position, especially when you can’t rely on him to stay on the field. I wanted to trade him a couple years ago, before the franchise tag ever even came into play. But...good lord. It’s becoming hard to deny that we’re a different team when he’s on the field. 

Edited December 21, 2021 by e16bball