UPDATE: Morgan Moses Released! Geron Christian too!

[turtle28]

8 minutes ago, lavar703 said:

I don’t agree that Leno is better. 

Based off what? Leno has been at worst a good starting LT since 2015. In that same time frame Moses has been up and down as a RT and battled a lot of injuries.

To me some fans think Moses is better just because they know more about him, he’s coming off his best year and they’ve seen him play more, but that doesn’t mean that he’s a better OT than Leno.

Just because you know less about Leno, doesn’t mean Moses is better.

[Thaiphoon]

2 hours ago, e16bball said:

Yeah, I saw that rationale posited as well, but if Jon Allen’s Year 1 cap hit is well north of the $10M it’s already at, they’re doing contracts wrong. 

Not a big fan of this move. What more did you want from the guy last year? Dropped a bunch of weight, got into good shape, played well the whole year, stayed healthy, even kicked over to LT and held his own in a pinch. Guy has been a warrior and a team player since day one. I know he’s not their guy — but he’s been our guy, and I think they’re losing sight of that a bit too much. It’s like they’re so focused on rooting out the poison of the prior regimes that they’ve become actively antagonistic to anyone who was here for more than a year or two before they got here. 

In the end, it probably won’t kill us. We’ll still go three deep with (hopefully) NFL caliber OTs. But the one guy I really trusted to play like a legit NFL starter next year is the one they’re showing the door. Which just seems odd for a team making other win-now moves.

This F.O. and coaching staff make me continually scratch my head. Are we in win-now mode or are we rebuilding? Are we just kicking everyone from previous regimes out and signing our own guys we coached previously? What are we doing?

Moses was always good for a drive killing penalty once per game. But...he was actually a decent RT and played his guts out for us.

OTOH, I do like the adage of "better a year too early than too late". So maybe with the bodies in camp, they see an opportunity to get more draft capital next year? Now is one of the best times to do a trade if we're trying to maximize our return. He can go to a new team and participate in all the offseason programs and get familiar with their offense, etc... The next best is during the season and a playoff (or playoff-hopeful) team has a OT go down and you dangle him for a trade.  

[lavar703]

34 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

Based off what? Leno has been at worst a good starting LT since 2015. In that same time frame Moses has been up and down as a RT and battled a lot of injuries.

To me some fans think Moses is better just because they know more about him, he’s coming off his best year and they’ve seen him play more, but that doesn’t mean that he’s a better OT than Leno.

Just because you know less about Leno, doesn’t mean Moses is better.

Leno has been a bottom-tier starting LT. He was graded out as a good LT like one time. To me, for what Morgan has given this team and time and time again playing through injuries this is a low blow, dirty move. I’m fine with moving on before you can’t but making all these moves and then franchise tagging a guard is beyond stupid. Especially considering they have about a zero percent chance of resigning that guard. Like I said before, this is just Rivera making room for more Panthers players or guys Mayhew and Hurney are familiar with. 

[MikeT14]

49 minutes ago, lavar703 said:

I don’t agree that Leno is better. 

Same

[Slappy Mc]

I never thought I would see people arguing about trying to get any sort of value from trading Morgan Moses... Don't get me wrong, I surely appreciate the good times he has had when he has been here, but he went through A LOT of bad to get to the past couple seasons. Not to mention until Trent Williams left he didn't seem to have the "gut it out through injury" ability. At this point, there must have been something that was seen to give confidence that they can move on from Morgan Moses. IMO it shouldn't be too hard to fill his shoes, considering we have enough talent on the roster to compete for the spot. Between Leno, Cosmi, Christian and Lucas both tackle positions are wide open. Lets not forget that they team was high on Saahdiq Charles as well. I had assumed that because we drafted Cosmi and signed Leno, that the writing was on the wall for Christian. Apparently it was on the wall for Moses instead. You could make the argument that its a lateral move for Leno/Cosmi (based off potential), but you would be hard pressed to convince me that Christian is on the same level as Moses. To me that means its one of two things: Money or he said/did something that put him in the doghouse.

 

Either way, this team getting younger, doesn't bother me. This team getting rid of an average offensive lineman that has under-performed for the majority of his career really doesn't bother me, especially since his replacement is already on the roster. If we can get any sort of draft pick for Moses, consider it a win and move on.

[turtle28]

50 minutes ago, lavar703 said:

Leno has been a bottom-tier starting LT. He was graded out as a good LT like one time. To me, for what Morgan has given this team and time and time again playing through injuries this is a low blow, dirty move. I’m fine with moving on before you can’t but making all these moves and then franchise tagging a guard is beyond stupid. Especially considering they have about a zero percent chance of resigning that guard. Like I said before, this is just Rivera making room for more Panthers players or guys Mayhew and Hurney are familiar with. 

You’re overrating Moses based on how he “could play” & how he played for twice in 5 years.

What metric are you using to say that Leno is a bottom tier LT? And what tier are you using?

Also, is a LT not more important than a RT? Even if Leno is a “bottom tier” LT - whatever that means - he’d still be a better OT than most RTs. 
 

I think you’re thinking too emotionally here rather than what’s best for the team long term. “He played through injuries for us, he’s a warrior for us, oh it’s a low blow to trade him.” etc, etc. The fact that every year except two that Moses couldn’t stay healthy & he’s 30 says that his best days are probably behind him. 
 

Get that draft pick, hopefully draft a long term starter with that pick and move on before we either lose Moses for nothing when his contract is up or he can’t stay healthy the last two years of his contract and his play really slips again.

Maybe they’re going to trade Scherff too. Maybe they won’t even trade Moses if they don’t get the type of offers back they’d like. They should be open to trading just about anyone on the team if it helps them long term.

[lavar703]

3 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

You’re overrating Moses based on how he “could play” & how he played for twice in 5 years.

What metric are you using to say that Leno is a bottom tier LT? And what tier are you using?

Also, is a LT not more important than a RT? Even if Leno is a “bottom tier” LT - whatever that means - he’d still be a better OT than most RTs. 
 

I think you’re thinking too emotionally here rather than what’s best for the team long term. “He played through injuries for us, he’s a warrior for us, oh it’s a low blow to trade him.” etc, etc. The fact that every year except two that Moses couldn’t stay healthy & he’s 30 says that his best days are probably behind him. 
 

Get that draft pick, hopefully draft a long term starter with that pick and move on before we either lose Moses for nothing when his contract is up or he can’t stay healthy the last two years of his contract and his play really slips again.

Maybe they’re going to trade Scherff too. Maybe they won’t even trade Moses if they don’t get the type of offers back they’d like. They should be open to trading just about anyone on the team if it helps them long term.

Honestly I don’t even know why you’re comparing the two? One plays on the right and one plays on the left. There was absolutely no need to do what they just did. It’s stupid. This is basically shedding players they didn’t draft just for the sake of it. It’s creating a hole where we didn’t have one and in my opinion is a message sent to your locker room. 

[taylor made]

This is pretty surprising because there's no real clear reason why they are releasing him. Morgan Moses sort of had a bounce back year as well, but was he that much better than David Sharpe even? It was just a year ago when most everyone hated him because of his poor play and penalties. I wouldn't think he's a bad locker-room guy, but maybe Ron doesn't like him for whatever reason? Maybe they just want more draft capital? Let's see what they can get for him. I would take a third rounder, I think that's around his value right now. 

[e16bball]

3 hours ago, Slappy Mc said:

Not to mention until Trent Williams left he didn't seem to have the "gut it out through injury" ability.

I was with you until this part. 

The guy hasn’t missed a start in 6 seasons. He’s started all 98 of our last 98 games. There are two OL in the entire league with a longer games started streak than him (Jake Matthews and Jason Kelce, who are both at about 105-110 games). One of those seasons, I think it was 2018 but I’m not 100% sure about that, he was legitimately dragging himself up and down the field, but he never tapped out. He’s a legitimate iron man, it’s probably his actual best quality. 

Edited May 19, 2021 by e16bball

[offbyone]

Confusingly inconsistent.  

But we will get a good pick for him.  Is it possible they are actually thinking about Scherff at RT?

Edited May 19, 2021 by offbyone

[e16bball]

I’m curious what people think we will be able to get for him. Particularly after pulling off the classic Washington “torpedo his value by making clear we don’t intend to keep him, one way or the other” maneuver. 

My gut says a 4th is the absolute best we’re going to do. That’s the price at which I’d say “meh, I guess it’s kinda worth it.”

Less than that, don’t really get it. Unless Cosmi absolutely blew them away at the rookie camp and they know there’s no way they can keep him off the field. Which feels a whole lot like wishful thinking.

[ripsean21]

18 minutes ago, lavar703 said:

Leno has been a bottom-tier starting LT. He was graded out as a good LT like one time. To me, for what Morgan has given this team and time and time again playing through injuries this is a low blow, dirty move. I’m fine with moving on before you can’t but making all these moves and then franchise tagging a guard is beyond stupid. Especially considering they have about a zero percent chance of resigning that guard. Like I said before, this is just Rivera making room for more Panthers players or guys Mayhew and Hurney are familiar with. 

Or they could be making room for their second round draft pick to start at what I feel was his best position. I don’t think Leno at LT is better then Moses at right. Moses was a clear leader. I think this is because he wants a better deal. And I think they are valuing keeping this DL intact. While I agree that Schreff is about as good as gone next season I believe they want Cosmi on the field. Again it’s hard to know the behind the scenes but if he wants a deal and they aren’t willing to come close too his demands then I get trying to get something in return. He has been a warrior here so this is hard. I don’t tend to agree with how they’ve treated their home grown players. The leaders that were in place they have completely disrespected IMO. But we will see what comes of this there’s zero chance I’d release him.

[Slappy Mc]

7 hours ago, e16bball said:

I was with you until this part. 

The guy hasn’t missed a start in 6 seasons. He’s started all 98 of our last 98 games. There are two OL in the entire league with a longer games started streak than him (Jake Matthews and Jason Kelce, who are both at about 105-110 games). One of those seasons, I think it was 2018 but I’m not 100% sure about that, he was legitimately dragging himself up and down the field, but he never tapped out. He’s a legitimate iron man, it’s probably his actual best quality. 

There's a difference between missing starts and missing chunks of games. It seemed like every game he would get hurt and miss a couple plays/ a couple series/ a couple quarters. We constantly had to shuffle the offensive line because of him getting hurt. The last two years, for whatever reason, that was not the case.

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I swear he always had an ankle problem or something each game. 

[MikeT14]

6 hours ago, e16bball said:

I’m curious what people think we will be able to get for him. Particularly after pulling off the classic Washington “torpedo his value by making clear we don’t intend to keep him, one way or the other” maneuver. 

My gut says a 4th is the absolute best we’re going to do. That’s the price at which I’d say “meh, I guess it’s kinda worth it.”

Less than that, don’t really get it. Unless Cosmi absolutely blew them away at the rookie camp and they know there’s no way they can keep him off the field. Which feels a whole lot like wishful thinking.

A late 4th, and you're right. 

[lavar703]

16 minutes ago, Slappy Mc said:

There's a difference between missing starts and missing chunks of games. It seemed like every game he would get hurt and miss a couple plays/ a couple series/ a couple quarters. We constantly had to shuffle the offensive line because of him getting hurt. The last two years, for whatever reason, that was not the case.

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I swear he always had an ankle problem or something each game. 

I think you are misremembering...