(Poll) Rank the QBs You'd Take Over Baker for At Least the Next 5 Years?

[Kiwibrown]

57 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said:

I know this is a safe space so I will say that I would take Baker over Jackson anyday. I think Jackson's career will be a lot like Cam Newtons. He's going to peak in year 6-7 and then head for a steep/immediate decline shortly after.

I think Baker sits in that 10-12 range currently

I would too, not because baker is more spectacular, rather in think that he has a better long term potential. 

 

Ultimately I think the  ball in the air beats the ball on the ground over a longer period of time.

[Empire Lies]

1 hour ago, Thomas5737 said:

I don't agree with that. It's always great to have a running game but I believe Baker is a rhythm QB and he is best when he throws often. We haven't seen that in the pros because we haven't done that. Yeah he threw a lot under Freddie but with no rhythm and 1 second on the play clock, the opposite of where Baker thrives.

Eventually he won't have a running game and hopefully we play to his strengths and then you will see him mentioned as a top tier QB.

You're right though better is always better and we're dealing with a lot of hypotheticals, but such is the speculation and projection game.

In this play-action scheme, a high quality RB buys Baker time and space to thrive. I think that's essential.

Defenders biting on the run or the DLine having to hold up in run fits as oppose to rushing the passer gives Baker the time and space in the boot game and PA pass to have clearer sight lines and throwing lanes along with less pressured throws.

If the Browns didn't have a quality run game, defenders would just stay home on the WRs/TEs and the DLine and attacking LBs would feel like they can rush the passer from the outset. That's why the Browns need a quality running game for Baker to thrive in my mind.

In a non-PA scheme, Baker would need a quality run game even more. 

To me, the question is how good of a RB or running game does Baker need to thrive. Is it he just needs a RB that makes the Defense think part of the time or does he need a more high quality RB that takes the defenses attention and scheming significantly?

That's up for debate, but I think we saw what happens when Nick Chubb was out and we only had Kareem and D'Ernest.

[NateDawg]

Long term I just don’t see maybe what you see with Kyler Murray and Lamar Jackson over Mayfield as no-brainers. In general, I don’t think I see what you see when it comes to Kyler Murray. 

I have Mayfield at the back end of the top 10. I think there are a few guys he could pass. I do see what you see in guys like Lawrence immediately in that top 10. Maybe not this year, but on a random roster tabula rasa definitely. 

[Thomas5737]

In size Baker is bottom 5

In arm talent he is top 5

In athleticism he is middle of the pack

His mental game is strong but I can't measure that among his peers I just don't know enough about the rest of the league's QBs. He could have been broken after 2019 though and many QBs would have been and it would have taken time to fix that so that is a testament to him.

So it just depends how much you value each of his attributes. If size and athleticism is weighed heavily he is a middle of the pack QB. If you value arm strength and accuracy then the sky is the limit.

 

[Empire Lies]

5 hours ago, AkronsWitness said:

I know this is a safe space so I will say that I would take Baker over Jackson anyday. I think Jackson's career will be a lot like Cam Newtons. He's going to peak in year 6-7 and then head for a steep/immediate decline shortly after.

I think Baker sits in that 10-12 range currently

4 hours ago, Kiwibrown said:

I would too, not because baker is more spectacular, rather in think that he has a better long term potential. 

Ultimately I think the  ball in the air beats the ball on the ground over a longer period of time.

 

I hear those sentiments and part of me completely agrees with those takes, but then I asked myself what would happen if Lamar Jackson had Nick Chubb and Kareem Hunt, our OLine, and was put in a play action boot and pass scheme where he'd have open space to run on the edge or if the defenders stay home to account for the numbers game advantage running QB then it would mean one on one's across the board for WRs and wide open pass lanes.

Lamar Jackson in this offense would be spectacular in my mind even accounting for his deficiencies which in my mind would be eliminated a lot due to the wide zone play action scheme.

You cannot account for the QB as a runner in this scheme. That's what Kyle Shanahan is banking on with Trey Lance. Lamar's best throws are when the defense come up to him to stop the threat of the run and then he bombs it down field or over the middle to a tight end or WR.

It would literally be wild. And I think because we hate the Ravens team it's easy to highlight Lamar's deficiencies (he definitely has them), but he's a special talent. I'd believe in this coaching staff to accentuate his strengths and mask his deficiencies.

I too am of the opinion that Lamar's career won't last as long but I think he likely achieves higher heights than Baker does in his career.  It would definitely be the case if Lamar was with Stefanski and away from Greg Roman.

[FGK]

I'd put him around 6-8 right now. I think I'm more excited about Baker, but moreso I'm more concerned about some of the guys above him on your list.

1. Wouldn't take Brady over him. Brady is the GOAT, but he's also playing later than most any other QB in the history of the league, I just see too high a potential for injury or the wheels finally falling off physically.
2. Wouldn't take Kyler/Lamar over him. Similar to Brady above, I really like both guys, especially Lamar, but the potential for injury is just too high, and I don't think Kyler has proven his potential to be efficient in the passing game the way Baker did 2nd half of the year.
3. I'm not including Deshaun. I get it, it's hard to talk about right now. But he's not playing this year, so if I need to win THIS year (which this exercise seems to be about, rather than looking at long term value), I'm not taking him at all.
4. I don't think I can put Dak ahead of him with the team being SO weird about his injury thus far. If he balls out week one, I would 100% put him ahead, he has earned it. But I just haven't seen him healthy yet and that injury was something else.

So that leaves me with Rodgers, Wilson, Mahomes, Josh Allen, and Justin Herbert definitely above him. Stafford I'd put close to him, along with Lawrence, Matt Ryan, and Tannehill. But in the end, I think I'd put him #6/7.

[Empire Lies]

9 hours ago, NateDawg said:

Long term I just don’t see maybe what you see with Kyler Murray and Lamar Jackson over Mayfield as no-brainers. In general, I don’t think I see what you see when it comes to Kyler Murray. 

I have Mayfield at the back end of the top 10. I think there are a few guys he could pass. I do see what you see in guys like Lawrence immediately in that top 10. Maybe not this year, but on a random roster tabula rasa definitely. 

Never said Kyler and Lamar were no-brainers over Baker. 

In fact, I said "Debatable, but I'd take them over Baker," meaning I went back and forth about it but ultimately decided to give them the advantage.

My criteria is simple: Substitute Lamar, Kyler, or whatever QB in question into the Browns team, scheme, surrounding personnel, and coaches.... then I ask myself is the offense at all better/elevated with Lamar or Kyler relative to Baker.

In the end, the answer was a debatable yes in both cases. Kingsbury simple spread and Greg Roman's Kaepernick simple read option and shotgun schemes are unimaginative and don't take advantage of the numbers game when utilizing the QB run game. 

Ultimately, Lamar and Kyler in a play action and boot scheme with a run threat like Nick Chubb or Kareem Hunt that the defense has to give attention and resources to or be subject to gash after gash means that Lamar and Kyler would be in open space unaccounted for or with a numbers advantage on the edge with room and space to run. 

If the defense decides to keep a LBs and Defensive end home (the DEs staying home would be irrelevant for guys like Kyler/Lamar) with a DB/DBs with eyes on the QB run or up in the box, that creates one on one advantages throughout the secondary, free runners over the middle on deep crossers via backend confusion, and with creativity could lead to an even more explosive down field passing game.

Baker's great but debatably, Kyler and Lamar would do more in this scheme in ways that would be a net positive relative to Baker in my opinion.

In the end it's just an exercise to help rank where Baker is amongst the QBs in this league.

Like I said, Baker's a top 12 for sure for me, but I can easily make arguments where he's #8 and I'm fine with that.

Edited September 5, 2021 by Empire Lies

[Kiwibrown]

13 minutes ago, Empire Lies said:

 

I hear those sentiments and part of me completely agrees with those takes, but then I asked myself what would happen if Lamar Jackson had Nick Chubb and Kareem Hunt, our OLine, and was put in a play action boot and pass scheme where he'd have open space to run on the edge or if the defenders stay home to account for the numbers game advantage running QB then it would mean one on one's across the board for WRs and wide open pass lanes.

Lamar Jackson in this offense would be spectacular in my mind even accounting for his deficiencies which in my mind would be eliminated a lot due to the wide zone play action scheme.

You cannot account for the QB as a runner in this scheme. That's what Kyle Shanahan is banking on with Trey Lance. Lamar's best throws are when the defense come up to him to stop the threat of the run and then he bombs it down field or over the middle to a tight end or WR.

It would literally be wild. And I think because we hate the Ravens team it's easy to highlight Lamar's deficiencies (he definitely has them), but he's a special talent. I'd believe in this coaching staff to accentuate his strengths and mask his deficiencies.

I too am of the opinion that Lamar's career won't last as long but I think he likely achieves higher heights than Baker does in his career.  It would definitely be the case if Lamar was with Stefanski and away from Greg Roman.

I think it is hard to project Lamar in our system, I think Roamn has maxmised him as a runner. The stretch he would get on a roll out here would be un real, it would open up the field in amazing ways, but I think it would challenge him more as a passer. His passing is still suspect, he really benefits from facing less people in coverage, 

I was thinking earlier today, of the crew that was drafted in 2018, Im not sure who would have survived the Hue/Haley and then Kitchens. Allen, and Lamar both went to A+ coaching groups, and then Darnold didnt survvive Gase, would he have dealt with Hue and Alabama worst in Freddie K? Rosen would likely have failed to, he failed with one good staff and one bad one.  

[candyman93]

Zero chance I’d take Kyler Murray over Baker. I think we’re going to start throwing the “bust” label if Arizona struggles against this year.

 

I think Baker gives us 32+ TDs this year. We need to keep giving him more explosive WRs though. I have faith him and DPJ are going to be $$$$. However, he can’t be the only elite athlete Baker throws to. We need OBJ and Schwartz to step up.

Edited September 4, 2021 by candyman93

[Empire Lies]

25 minutes ago, FGK said:

I'd put him around 6-8 right now. I think I'm more excited about Baker, but moreso I'm more concerned about some of the guys above him on your list.

1. Wouldn't take Brady over him. Brady is the GOAT, but he's also playing later than most any other QB in the history of the league, I just see too high a potential for injury or the wheels finally falling off physically.
2. Wouldn't take Kyler/Lamar over him. Similar to Brady above, I really like both guys, especially Lamar, but the potential for injury is just too high, and I don't think Kyler has proven his potential to be efficient in the passing game the way Baker did 2nd half of the year.
3. I'm not including Deshaun. I get it, it's hard to talk about right now. But he's not playing this year, so if I need to win THIS year (which this exercise seems to be about, rather than looking at long term value), I'm not taking him at all.
4. I don't think I can put Dak ahead of him with the team being SO weird about his injury thus far. If he balls out week one, I would 100% put him ahead, he has earned it. But I just haven't seen him healthy yet and that injury was something else.

So that leaves me with Rodgers, Wilson, Mahomes, Josh Allen, and Justin Herbert definitely above him. Stafford I'd put close to him, along with Lawrence, Matt Ryan, and Tannehill. But in the end, I think I'd put him #6/7.

Yeah, that's fair.

A lot of the choices like Herbert or Baker are tough decisions because Baker's so good.

You have one season to win the Super Bowl and it's this year. On this team, with these coaches and personnel, do you take Brady over Baker though?

It's tough but I think I would.

Can you imagine if Baker ran a 4.4 or lower, had juking and natural running ability and was out on the edge on a boot because the defense got sucked into believing Nick Chubb was getting the ball on a RB run? 

The pass and run options that the defense would have to account for if a running QB talent like Kyler or Lamar kept the ball in play action are wild possibilities to me. Dak to a much lesser extent.

I actually think Kyler is as talented of a passer compared to Baker but in the limited Kingsbury scheme he languishes. It's debatable who's the better passer between Dak and Baker, but Dak's definitely the plus runner. Injury concerns are definitely real though so long term it leans toward Baker.  All the good that Lamar does as a passer to me is what he'd be doing in this scheme.

It's tough. But I'd give the likes of Kyler, Lamar, and Dak the advantage b/c of the combination of run and pass ability and what I think Stefanski could do with those talents relative to what Baker offers.

Ultimately, that Baker makes it debatable (at least in my mind) for guys like Lamar, Kyler, and Dak just means that Baker is a true franchise changing QB on the ascent, close to elite tier QB, and really is maximizing his ability.

Baker has some passing warts though now. We saw him air mail and miss wide open guys and miss easy throws at times toward the end of the season. This whole "OBJ makes him worse" debate (though I don't believe and think they would've all gotten better as the season went on) would be moot if OBJ was paired with some of these other guys.  The idea that Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Russell Wilson, or even Dak Prescott would be in their head, over thinking and forcing things to OBJ in ways that make the offense worse is just hard for me to believe.

Edited September 4, 2021 by Empire Lies

[candyman93]

9 minutes ago, Empire Lies said:

This whole "OBJ makes him worse" debate (though I don't believe and think they would've all gotten better as the season went on) would be moot if OBJ was paired with some of these other guys.  The idea that Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Russell Wilson, or even Dak Prescott would be in their head, over thinking and forcing things to OBJ in ways that make the offense worse is just hard for me to believe.

I will never understand why OBJ can’t work with Baker.
 

OBJ is not just an explosive player, he’s the 2nd best route runner in the NFL. Being that elite in route running is going to help you produce. I don’t care who your QB is.

 

http://i.imgur.com/4hXMcXj.jpg

Edited September 4, 2021 by candyman93

[buno67]

See im Not solid on Lawrence. Dude had an amazing freshman year but was never able to match that his final 2 years. He looked like the elite of the elite, a can’t miss NFL QB but those final 2 years, he wasnt playing anything like that can’t miss guy. Never looked extremely special in this big time games outside of the title game his 1st yr

[buno67]

1 hour ago, candyman93 said:

I will never understand why OBJ can’t work with Baker.
 

OBJ is not just an explosive player, he’s the 2nd best route runner in the NFL. Being that elite in route running is going to help you produce. I don’t care who your QB is.

 

http://i.imgur.com/4hXMcXj.jpg

I think it’s a by product of systems. His time in NY, they weren’t Learning new systems because of Eli. 1st yr in Cleveland , you got Freddie trying to install the hillbilly version of the Arian offense and than yr 2 it was Stef’s system. This year should be a lot different cause there is no learning, it’s about mastering and expanding 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

48 minutes ago, buno67 said:

I think it’s a by product of systems. His time in NY, they weren’t Learning new systems because of Eli. 1st yr in Cleveland , you got Freddie trying to install the hillbilly version of the Arian offense and than yr 2 it was Stef’s system. This year should be a lot different cause there is no learning, it’s about mastering and expanding 

All I’m saying is it’s been a few years since he was that guy we all remember.

Not saying he can’t play or can’t be useful, but I’ll be shocked if he’s anything like his time in NY.

[MWil23]

On 9/4/2021 at 1:57 AM, Empire Lies said:

9.) Kyler Murray

Hahahahahahaha

On 9/4/2021 at 1:57 AM, Empire Lies said:

11.) Trevor Lawrence

Dude hasn’t even thrown an NFL pass yet.