Week 11: Raiders vs. Bengals - here kitty kitty

[Frankie2Gunz]

8 minutes ago, CaribouLou said:

josh rosen: one year project

tua: barely been starting two years and are already looking for a solution from him i.e probably Watson

Haskins: barely one year started and moved on

Darnold: two years started and moved on

Locker: never started more than 11 games and they always looked for other options (signing fitzpatrick and mettenburger)

Gabbert: A couple seasons then then they tried Henne

Ponder: tried to start him shortly then went to Matt Cassell for awhile.

Weeden: 1.5 seasons and they were done with him

These projects shouldn't drag your whole organization down for 8+ years. If they're not the guy you rinse and repeat. It's not a 10 year project like Carr will be. Normal organizations try to find their guy every few years instead of being stuck in middling purgatory for 10 years straight. At this point he's playing like QB in the bottom 10 of starting of starting QB's and replacing his production this year will be very easy with any veteran QB on the market. Time to let your boy go and flouish in some other team since we're such a dumpster fire.

Clearly you think franchise QB's grow on trees.  Go back to 2010 and list all of the 1st round QB's, then do teh math and tell me what the odds are of landing an upgrade over Carr.  I did this a year ago and the odds are terrible.  

You must be too young to remember how pathetic our QB play was for 30 years prior to Carr minus the fluke signing of Gannon.  Do the names of Marinovich, Schrader, Jawalrus, Walter, Brooks, fat washed up Culpepper, Mcnown, Mirer, Collins, Tui, Gradkowski, Frye ring a bell?  

The thought of trash QB play like that for multiple decades terrifies me and we have nothing in place in our front office that indicates to me that they can be competent at drafting or evaluating a quality QB.

[CaribouLou]

2 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

Clearly you think franchise QB's grow on trees.  Go back to 2010 and list all of the 1st round QB's, then do teh math and tell me what the odds are of landing an upgrade over Carr.  I did this a year ago and the odds are terrible.  

You must be too young to remember how pathetic our QB play was for 30 years prior to Carr minus the fluke signing of Gannon.  Do the names of Marinovich, Schrader, Jawalrus, Walter, Brooks, fat washed up Culpepper, Mcnown, Mirer, Collins, Tui, Gradkowski, Frye ring a bell?  

The thought of trash QB play like that for multiple decades terrifies me and we have nothing in place in our front office that indicates to me that they can be competent at drafting or evaluating a quality QB.

I really don't have much faith in this front office to locate a franchise QB in the draft either. I remember all of those QB's but I don't think those previous misses should make you gun-shy about drafting another QB if you think one has the potential to be the guy. All of those names you mentioned also only played for about a year before we moved on. 

Good Qb's are obviously hard to find, but that shouldn't deter you from trying to find another just because you have an average one. I agree with the signing of another veteran QB and start the process of drafting one also. I think Bryce Young is going to be amazing and would love to get some draft capitol in 2023 to move up and get him but that's another pipe dream that we would do that.

[MrOaktown_56]

2 hours ago, big_palooka said:

@Frankie2Gunz If your whole system is predicated on needing a speed Z WR, then your system is broken. Good QBs win with less than the Raider at WR. 

I'm saying Gruden elevated Carr from a B level QB to an A. That's what good coaching can do. Carr has reverted back to his B level self. Check downs and ignoring his outside WRs. 

I understand having a supporting cast around your QB. It is, however never going to be perfect. Carr has a quality blindside protector. An elite TE, a terrific slot WR. Size on the outside. And a RB who at one point made a pro bowl. He has to be better. 

Saying the team is "bottom of the barrel" in talent is misguided. I do agree with the dysfunction. 

Bottom line, I'm tired of the excuses for Carr. Play better, period. 

That's not true. Our receivers are trash now. Waller is really good, but this is a bottom 5 group now. And that's being respectful. Zay is not starting for more than 2 or 3 teams on the outside. I like Edwards but he's just not separating when he has the #1/2 corner on him. It sucks, but 99% of qb's need weapons. Now if you want to point to Carr's pick, fumbles, and lack of desire to run, I am 100% with you. But we're back to square 1 with the cast now that Ruggs is gone. Which is terrible if we want to bring in another qb (which I think we should do).

[Frankie2Gunz]

8 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

That's not true. Our receivers are trash now. Waller is really good, but this is a bottom 5 group now. And that's being respectful. Zay is not starting for more than 2 or 3 teams on the outside. I like Edwards but he's just not separating when he has the #1/2 corner on him. It sucks, but 99% of qb's need weapons. Now if you want to point to Carr's pick, fumbles, and lack of desire to run, I am 100% with you. But we're back to square 1 with the cast now that Ruggs is gone. Which is terrible if we want to bring in another qb (which I think we should do).

That's being kind .  My vote is that Zay starts for zero teams on the outside if not for our trash WR corp.  

[SimonGruber]

8 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

That's being kind .  My vote is that Zay starts for zero teams on the outside if not for our trash WR corp.  

At the time appreciated taking the flyer but he should never been resigned even if it’s a cheap contract 

[Frankie2Gunz]

2 minutes ago, SimonGruber said:

At the time appreciated taking the flyer but he should never been resigned even if it’s a cheap contract 

The fact that he was resigned, made the team and is now starting is a testament as to how terrible our roster is.  Zay is a fringe NFL player and starting on the outside for us.  

Carr has had to play with worse Wr's over the years.  Ateman, Doss, washed up Jordy Nelson, Roberts.  That is an embarrassing list of bums who were starters and saw significant snaps for us.  Talk about no separation....  Look at those bums. 

[Frankie2Gunz]

I bet the Giants fans would die for a Qb like Carr.  They actually have talent on O (Barkley, Golliday, Toney, Engram) and are saddled with a worthless bum like Danny Pennies that they keep throwing out there YOY.  The Giants are a great example of what drafting a 1st round bum QB will do to set back a franchise.  It's clear they need to move on from that hot piece of garbage yet they keep rolling with him.  Three years wasted with Danny Pennies and next year it's either start from scratch or roll that bum out there for season number 4.  

[SimonGruber]

15 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

The fact that he was resigned, made the team and is now starting is a testament as to how terrible our roster is.  Zay is a fringe NFL player and starting on the outside for us.  

Carr has had to play with worse Wr's over the years.  Ateman, Doss, washed up Jordy Nelson, Roberts.  That is an embarrassing list of bums who were starters and saw significant snaps for us.  Talk about no separation....  Look at those bums. 

At least when it comes to Zay and Roberts Carr stayed bigging up these dudes I know he’s a nice guy and all. However I don’t know find a diplomatic way to say get me some upgrades lol

[SimonGruber]

11 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Sticking with a middling QB over "optics" is the weakest argument ever.

Maybe it's time to admit Carr is just not good enough. He's the same panicked player USC exposed back in 2013. He's refuses to use his legs to make plays. He leads the league in lost fumbles since coming into the league. He's been a terrible red zone QB his entire career. 

You can blame talent, coaching, etc. and some of that is valid. But maybe the QB just isn't who you want him to be?

 

[ronjon1990]

5 hours ago, big_palooka said:

@Frankie2Gunz If your whole system is predicated on needing a speed Z WR, then your system is broken. Good QBs win with less than the Raider at WR. 

I'm saying Gruden elevated Carr from a B level QB to an A. That's what good coaching can do. Carr has reverted back to his B level self. Check downs and ignoring his outside WRs. 

I understand having a supporting cast around your QB. It is, however never going to be perfect. Carr has a quality blindside protector. An elite TE, a terrific slot WR. Size on the outside. And a RB who at one point made a pro bowl. He has to be better. 

Saying the team is "bottom of the barrel" in talent is misguided. I do agree with the dysfunction. 

Bottom line, I'm tired of the excuses for Carr. Play better, period. 

1. Name a single one that wasn't aided by top tier coaching and defensive play. I'll wait. 

2. Josh Jacobs made a Pro Bowl? So did Justin Forsette, CJ Anderson, Chris Ivory, Jay Ajayi. And like them, he's barely done anything since. Pretending like Jacobs is anything more than an injury prone plodder with a quickly diminishing YPC average being out played in terms of efficiency by both Drake and Barber after seeing Booker do more with his limited snaps doesn't negate that. Jacobs may have made a Pro Bowl, but he's not even close to a Pro Bowl RB. He's a distant 4th among starting RBs in the division, much less the conference, and it's not even close. Dude had had 2 100 yard games since that Pro Bowl, and his last was now over a year ago. He's hardly an asset to lean on. 

Not saying Carr doesn't need to play better, but be realistic. We have a bottom rung run game with zero big play ability with it and our best WR threat by a mile is a TE. No team in the league has a TE as their only real threat. And as much as I love Renfrow's toughness, he's limited in what he can do on his own. We all love the guy and pretty much universally agree that he would be the starting slot WR on probably all 32 teams in this league, but not once have I seen anyone advocating he would be any team's 1st or 2nd WR. 

[NYRaider]

2 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

I bet the Giants fans would die for a Qb like Carr.  They actually have talent on O (Barkley, Golliday, Toney, Engram) and are saddled with a worthless bum like Danny Pennies that they keep throwing out there YOY.  The Giants are a great example of what drafting a 1st round bum QB will do to set back a franchise.  It's clear they need to move on from that hot piece of garbage yet they keep rolling with him.  Three years wasted with Danny Pennies and next year it's either start from scratch or roll that bum out there for season number 4.  

Carr plays terrible in cold weather so I'm not sure how well he'd play in New York.

[NYRaider]

2 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

Not saying Carr doesn't need to play better, but be realistic. We have a bottom rung run game with zero big play ability with it and our best WR threat by a mile is a TE. No team in the league has a TE as their only real threat. And as much as I love Renfrow's toughness, he's limited in what he can do on his own. We all love the guy and pretty much universally agree that he would be the starting slot WR on probably all 32 teams in this league, but not once have I seen anyone advocating he would be any team's 1st or 2nd WR. 

The biggest mistake that Gruden made was gutting the OL. We lost Hudson (All-Pro), Brown (Top-Tier OT), and Jackson (Above Average OG) and replaced them with significantly worse players. We cannot run the ball at all which kills our ability to sustain long drives and also means that Carr has to put up super man level production with an average WR core to be competitive. 

[NYRaider]

3 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

That's not true. Our receivers are trash now. Waller is really good, but this is a bottom 5 group now. And that's being respectful. Zay is not starting for more than 2 or 3 teams on the outside. I like Edwards but he's just not separating when he has the #1/2 corner on him. It sucks, but 99% of qb's need weapons. Now if you want to point to Carr's pick, fumbles, and lack of desire to run, I am 100% with you. But we're back to square 1 with the cast now that Ruggs is gone. Which is terrible if we want to bring in another qb (which I think we should do).

Almost every team currently in the playoff picture in both conferences has an alpha #1 WR. We have Hunter Renfrow.

 

[MrOaktown_56]

14 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Almost every team currently in the playoff picture in both conferences has an alpha #1 WR. We have Hunter Renfrow.

 

Alas. That’s how the cookie crumbles. But at least we can throw 2 yard passes to our running back on designed screens. That’s good.

[NYRaider]

42 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

Alas. That’s how the cookie crumbles. But at least we can throw 2 yard passes to our running back on designed screens. That’s good.

It wouldn't be nearly as bad if we could run the ball. But we're trying to beat teams offensively with no good WR's and we can't sustain drives due to our terrible running game.