Week 11: Raiders vs. Bengals - here kitty kitty

[Jeremy408]

3 hours ago, big_palooka said:

I said it during the game. I think Carr is showing he needed a coach to tell him what to do and guide him. His 2016 season, Musgrave was on him, he didn't have a lot of audible power, etc. 2017, his boy Downing takes over and he falls off a cliff. Took Gruden a few years to rebuild him. 

I thought he'd play better without Gruden's influence. I was wrong. Gruden got the best out of him. He's back to being quick to check down. Not even looking at his WRs on the outside now. 

My take on Carr was that he never had coaching until Gruden(no I don’t think Musgrave was a good coach). 
 

I also thought he would play well without a right and now that he’s actually been developed.

Actually I wish he took care of the football better.

I think it’s the opposite for me when he gets flustered he just throws the ball in there

[Frankie2Gunz]

14 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

Yep.

I love Carr. I hate that we've failed to give him any real consistent talent, burdened him with constant turnover at OC and even HC, and routinely screwed the pooch on building around him. 

I think he could go to a talented, stable team and be successful. And I don't think many QBs come in on this squad and yield much better results. Maybe like 3 guys? Even then, it's a 50/50. 

The run game is basically non-existent, our O-line is banged up and 4/5 of the guys on it wouldn't start on good teams at the moment, and our WR corps consists of a TE people scheme for, a criminally underutilized TE2, a tiny hard working slot guy, and a bunch of backup caliber guys being thrust into far more snaps than they should be getting, and playcalling is just atrocious. 

Those are just facts. It all needs to be fixed. It doesn't mean Carr is banished to backup land and is a terrible QB. He could go on and be the next Stafford or he could be somewhere between Sam Darnold and Andy Dalton. Nobody can be quite sure because the dysfunction on this team goes well beyond a single player. 

With that in mind, he's probably far more valuable to us as a trade asset at this point. This thing is getting blown up. And it needs to. Outside of Waller, he might be the only player on our offense that could even drum up any interest, and being a QB in a QB needy league, he's likely to garner more interest at a higher value. 

This is another 3-5 year rebuild that's coming up. Carr isn't our QBOTF anymore. And with the impending rebuild, we can sign a cheap Fitzpatrick type to be a bridge at a much cheaper rate while gaining some ammo for Carr. It just makes more sense for all parties to have a clean break and fresh start. 

We want him to prove himself, but he's working with backup level talent. It's an impossible ask. If he goes elsewhere and wins a Superbowl in January 2023, damn good on him. I hope he does, if only for being so loyal to us while the dumpster filled with trash. But I won't feel like we missed out by trading him, because this fix isn't going to happen with him. He would need to be an all-time top 5 QB to keep this sinking ship afloat, and even then, I question whether that's even realistically possible.

But that's what it would be, keeping a sinking ship afloat. Even if we won out and Carr wound up with 40 TDs, 12INTs and 5000+ yards, it's clear as day that it wouldn't be some turned corner. It would be an improbable run, but not indicative of something sustainable for the coming seasons. 

You have to understand my point and that is we should not move on from Carr without a legit upgrade in place.  Similar to what KC did with Mahomes/Smith or Rogers/Farve.  

Let's say that we clean house an hire a new GM.  He trades Carr to the Bears, Saints, Packers etc. (teams with quality talent). Carr takes them to the playoffs and our new GM does not have a replacement in place or signs a bum like Dalton as a stop gap and is banking on finding his replacement via the draft. 

If Carr has success and our drafted Qb is a bust, odds suggest that most 1st round QB's are big time busts or downgrades over Carr the optics of a move like that will be catastrophic and will lead to that new GM being fired in two to three years.  Hence another rebuild.... Rinse and repeat until we find stability at QB.  

As you have pointed out that Carr is not the reason we are being held back, he is one of the bright spots on a roster devoid of talent.  This is not a coaching staff or roster that will allow a young rookie QB to flourish.  Terrible Oline and D, no run game and bottom tier WR's across the board.  I would venture to say that TLaw has similar to if not better O weapons than we have and he is not playing well in Jax.  He is a "generational talent" and is looking below average because of terrible coaching being thrust onto a team that is not ready for a rookie QB.  That is a similar situation to what we have in LV with no talent and constant turnover at the HC position. 

I am all for drafting a replacement and hopefully we can find one over the next two to three seasons but until that happens we need to keep Carr because without him this is a 3 win team at best.  We need to hire a new GM/HC combo nail draft picks, bring in some young quality FA, have stability at the HC position and then hand the reigns over to a young signal caller.  

Once all of that happens then we can move on but until then moving on from Carr without an upgrade in place, on a team devoid of talent and depth is the recipe for disaster.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Frankie2Gunz

[Frankie2Gunz]

16 minutes ago, SBXISBXVSBXVIII said:

I’m 50/50 whether Carr stays or goes. However, I think if there’s a complete rebuild, I think Carr deserves to go to a better situation to show he can be a winner with a team with a better roster. It would be good to have a different QB and a fresh start for him and the Raiders. This of course is just my opinion.

I would like to see Carr go to another franchise and have success but not at the determent of the Raiders.  Read my above post as to why ^

[oakdb36]

Being a 3 win team or a non playoff 8 win team doesn't make much of a difference. The main difference is you're out of position to draft an elite player when you win 8 games.

And the way the offense is playing right now, we'd be closer to 3 wins anyway, even with Carr.

Edited November 22, 2021 by oakdb36

[Jeremy408]

4 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

If Carr has success and our drafted Qb is a bust, odds suggest that most 1st round QB's are big time busts or downgrades over Carr the optics of a move like that will be catastrophic and will lead to that new GM being fired in two to three years.  Hence another rebuild.... Rinse and repeat until we find stability at QB.  

100% this is what I said yesterday. A lot of times we look at when a quarterback gets drafted and he’s successful but we forget how many times that team missed on quarterbacks to get to that point.(The bills for example)

Then you have to think about How there’s teams that I have had that like just settle with a player like baker Mayfield because they know how hard it is to draft an average starting quarterback. There’s a lot of fools gold at that position.
 

That’s why we’re seeing a lot of teams now trading for quarterbacks that I fell on other teams rather than drafting quarterbacks. 

[SBXISBXVSBXVIII]

3 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

I would like to see Carr go to another franchise and have success but not at the determent of the Raiders.  Read my above post as to why ^

I read it and I understand what you’re saying. However, do you trust the Raiders to draft better?

[Styrian Raider]

I think before we talk about player personnel decisions, we (or the raiders as an organisation) should get our future coaching staff together.

I think you can't start shaking things all around the organisation up and expect that it would work right from the start.

Therefore we need to ask ourselves, what kind of playing style do we want to present as the "raiders style" and then we have to get a GM and a headcoach at first.
Then we can go on and talk about changes in the roster.

[Frankie2Gunz]

3 minutes ago, SBXISBXVSBXVIII said:

I read it and I understand what you’re saying. However, do you trust the Raiders to draft better?

Hopefully a new HC/GM will draft better.  Let's be honest Gruden and Mayock get an F for FA signings and drafting.  Only one way to go from there

[oakdb36]

6 minutes ago, Styrian Raider said:

I think before we talk about player personnel decisions, we (or the raiders as an organisation) should get our future coaching staff together.

I think you can't start shaking things all around the organisation up and expect that it would work right from the start.

Therefore we need to ask ourselves, what kind of playing style do we want to present as the "raiders style" and then we have to get a GM and a headcoach at first.
Then we can go on and talk about changes in the roster.

A playing style to beat Mahomes.

[big_palooka]

30 minutes ago, oakdb36 said:

Denver re-signed Sutton and Patrick and will be going after Rodgers/Wilson this offseason. We need to accept we won't do anything next year and plan for the future.

Or go after Rodgers/Wilson and not let Denver be in control. The Raiders have the skill positions. Add another WR and either of those guys could have fun with the offense. 

[Styrian Raider]

6 minutes ago, oakdb36 said:

A playing style to beat Mahomes.

That's easy. Theoretically.
Mahomes is imho more than beatable when he get's pressured from the defense as seen in the super bowl vs. the bucs.

 

[big_palooka]

24 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

You have to understand my point and that is we should not move on from Carr without a legit upgrade in place.  Similar to what KC did with Mahomes/Smith or Rogers/Farve.  

Let's say that we clean house an hire a new GM.  He trades Carr to the Bears, Saints, Packers etc. (teams with quality talent). Carr takes them to the playoffs and our new GM does not have a replacement in place or signs a bum like Dalton as a stop gap and is banking on finding his replacement via the draft. 

If Carr has success and our drafted Qb is a bust, odds suggest that most 1st round QB's are big time busts or downgrades over Carr the optics of a move like that will be catastrophic and will lead to that new GM being fired in two to three years.  Hence another rebuild.... Rinse and repeat until we find stability at QB.  

As you have pointed out that Carr is not the reason we are being held back, he is one of the bright spots on a roster devoid of talent.  This is not a coaching staff or roster that will allow a young rookie QB to flourish.  Terrible Oline and D, no run game and bottom tier WR's across the board.  I would venture to say that TLaw has similar to if not better O weapons than we have and he is not playing well in Jax.  He is a "generational talent" and is looking below average because of terrible coaching being thrust onto a team that is not ready for a rookie QB.  That is a similar situation to what we have in LV with no talent and constant turnover at the HC position. 

I am all for drafting a replacement and hopefully we can find one over the next two to three seasons but until that happens we need to keep Carr because without him this is a 3 win team at best.  We need to hire a new GM/HC combo nail draft picks, bring in some young quality FA, have stability at the HC position and then hand the reigns over to a young signal caller.  

Once all of that happens then we can move on but until then moving on from Carr without an upgrade in place, on a team devoid of talent and depth is the recipe for disaster.

Sticking with a middling QB over "optics" is the weakest argument ever.

Maybe it's time to admit Carr is just not good enough. He's the same panicked player USC exposed back in 2013. He's refuses to use his legs to make plays. He leads the league in lost fumbles since coming into the league. He's been a terrible red zone QB his entire career. 

You can blame talent, coaching, etc. and some of that is valid. But maybe the QB just isn't who you want him to be?

[Darbsk]

50 minutes ago, oakdb36 said:

I said the system. Didn't mention the players. A system is meant to get the most of what you got. If there are weaknesses, you find a way to work around that. Everything is falling down now because Greg Olson can't work around anything. His answer is deploying the same offense he always has.

That seems like a bit of a cop out to me, the OL surely is a very important, integral part of the system is it not? It's certainly not maximising those guys potential and is hampering everything else on offence IMO. Bare in mind we had an OL built with expensive FA pieces (Gruden added Brown, Incognito and Miller) and a couple high draft picks that we then imploded to go totally 180 on. I don't see a system employed there, I see impulsive moves and changes of direction with no real plan.

I understand that the QB and skill positions were operating under a system and were showing signs of potential but it's all basically undermined by Gruden's other erratic decisions is my point. I don't put all the blame on the OC now, we were actually pretty good the two games directly after Gruden left and people were saying how good it was, then we had the Ruggs and Arnette incidents and it's all seems to have snowballed from there.

[Darbsk]

32 minutes ago, oakdb36 said:

A playing style to beat Mahomes.

Yep a playing style to beat his smug pretty little face into the dirt 😀😈

[oakdb36]

26 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

That seems like a bit of a cop out to me, the OL surely is a very important, integral part of the system is it not? It's certainly not maximising those guys potential and is hampering everything else on offence IMO. Bare in mind we had an OL built with expensive FA pieces (Gruden added Brown, Incognito and Miller) and a couple high draft picks that we then imploded to go totally 180 on. I don't see a system employed there, I see impulsive moves and changes of direction with no real plan.

I understand that the QB and skill positions were operating under a system and were showing signs of potential but it's all basically undermined by Gruden's other erratic decisions is my point. I don't put all the blame on the OC now, we were actually pretty good the two games directly after Gruden left and people were saying how good it was, then we had the Ruggs and Arnette incidents and it's all seems to have snowballed from there.

The oline is a weakness. That's not part of the system. That's the reality of the situation. Putting together a system (the scheme, the plays, the game plan) to work around the weakness is what i talked about earlier. Getting rid of some players on the oline isn't a system. It's life managing a roster. The Raiders had a functioning offense to start the season with an oline playing worse than it is now. Yet, here we are, scoring 14 points/game over the last 3. To which you will say, we've lost Ruggs. Well, Ruggs did basically nothing last year and the offense was much better than it is now. Losing Arnette, who was on IR i should add, doesn't even need a mention when talking about the offense. You can choose not to put the blame on Olson but he has years of history behind him and it's exactly what we're seeing now. Ineffective.