GM-HC options

[ronjon1990]

10 minutes ago, Dodo said:

What are the specific knocks against Dabo? He's been at the program since 03 and built a perennial winner. I only follow college ball at the end of the season so maybe there's some personal stuff about his history I'm not aware of

*Back about 5 pages there was a discussion about it. Here was my stance:

 

Zero NFL experience. Not even as an assistant or positional coach. 

He's not really an offensive or defensive maestro either. He was a low key replacement tabbed by Tommy Bowden. He was never a hot commodity for a HC spot outside of that, as Clemson was an ok but not powerhouse program at the time. So it's not really like a Kliff Kingsbury, where there's a particular talent in the rough that might be enticing. 

If he has a skill, it's recruiting, and I don't think that translates to the NFL. He was also aided in his conference by the old school powers of FSU and Miami falling off of the face of the earth. And even with the success Clemson has had, they're still not really a crown jewel of the ACC. Not to knock him too much, but despite his record, he's not the Saban-like demigod some make him out to be. He's more like Chip Kelly in that regard. Chip took over an Oregon program that was the default top team in a weak conference and definitely benefitted, but it was never a matter of "if" but "when" USC got it's act together. For Dabo and Clemson, it always just feels like a matter of "if" but "when" FSU and Miami get their act together. 

Further, he's kind of a feeble ego. His big skill, as I said, is recruiting. Yet he has, on several occasions, threatened to quit coaching if Clemson were paying players. Clemson ain't poor and it's not like they wouldn't pony up the cash needed to be successful recruiting players if the players wanted to be paid. So my thing about that is: "What are you scared of?". (Personally, I don't think schools need to be in the business of cash compensation either, but I'm also not a coach recruiting players as part of my own well compensated job).

What it says to me is that recruiting on a "level" playing field is a talent of his. That's great for college, to a degree. But what about FA in the NFL? Does he have enough spine and self-respect to be successful at that, or does he see such things as a threat because he folds when money is (literally) on the table? Because NFL FA is certainly the antithesis of a level playing field what with the salary cap, cash on hand, waiver priority, etc. 

He Is a staunch supporter of the farcical 4 team playoff. Probably because Clemson got waived in so much. He got a lot of benefits of that bs. Is he scared of more competition? When you're playing a powderpuff schedule, it's easy to support such "in" crowd systems. I'm not saying any coach should actively advocate against their own team's best interest, mind you, but I do question his hesitation as part of the overall picture in terms of a candidate for an NFL HC spot. Could he take over a loser and not flake like Petrino when times get rough? Will his interest in seeing things through begin to wane when he's not instantly successful? Moreover, is he just a hot commodity by virtue of Clemson spending some time as the toast of the college football world and not himself confident in his own ability outside of such conditions? 

There's just nothing about him or his resume or things he's said or done that indicate hiring him would be anything more than misplaced bandwagon hype at the behest of Mayock who has a Clemson fetish. 

[Jeremy408]

18 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

*Back about 5 pages there was a discussion about it. Here was my stance:

 

Zero NFL experience. Not even as an assistant or positional coach. 

He's not really an offensive or defensive maestro either. He was a low key replacement tabbed by Tommy Bowden. He was never a hot commodity for a HC spot outside of that, as Clemson was an ok but not powerhouse program at the time. So it's not really like a Kliff Kingsbury, where there's a particular talent in the rough that might be enticing. 

If he has a skill, it's recruiting, and I don't think that translates to the NFL. He was also aided in his conference by the old school powers of FSU and Miami falling off of the face of the earth. And even with the success Clemson has had, they're still not really a crown jewel of the ACC. Not to knock him too much, but despite his record, he's not the Saban-like demigod some make him out to be. He's more like Chip Kelly in that regard. Chip took over an Oregon program that was the default top team in a weak conference and definitely benefitted, but it was never a matter of "if" but "when" USC got it's act together. For Dabo and Clemson, it always just feels like a matter of "if" but "when" FSU and Miami get their act together. 

Further, he's kind of a feeble ego. His big skill, as I said, is recruiting. Yet he has, on several occasions, threatened to quit coaching if Clemson were paying players. Clemson ain't poor and it's not like they wouldn't pony up the cash needed to be successful recruiting players if the players wanted to be paid. So my thing about that is: "What are you scared of?". (Personally, I don't think schools need to be in the business of cash compensation either, but I'm also not a coach recruiting players as part of my own well compensated job).

What it says to me is that recruiting on a "level" playing field is a talent of his. That's great for college, to a degree. But what about FA in the NFL? Does he have enough spine and self-respect to be successful at that, or does he see such things as a threat because he folds when money is (literally) on the table? Because NFL FA is certainly the antithesis of a level playing field what with the salary cap, cash on hand, waiver priority, etc. 

He Is a staunch supporter of the farcical 4 team playoff. Probably because Clemson got waived in so much. He got a lot of benefits of that bs. Is he scared of more competition? When you're playing a powderpuff schedule, it's easy to support such "in" crowd systems. I'm not saying any coach should actively advocate against their own team's best interest, mind you, but I do question his hesitation as part of the overall picture in terms of a candidate for an NFL HC spot. Could he take over a loser and not flake like Petrino when times get rough? Will his interest in seeing things through begin to wane when he's not instantly successful? Moreover, is he just a hot commodity by virtue of Clemson spending some time as the toast of the college football world and not himself confident in his own ability outside of such conditions? 

There's just nothing about him or his resume or things he's said or done that indicate hiring him would be anything more than misplaced bandwagon hype at the behest of Mayock who has a Clemson fetish. 

My thing with Dabo Swinney is that he seems like the type of college coach that if things aren't working out right after a year he's just going to pull the typical college coach "never mind I'm just gonna go back to college" thing. 

The sad thing is there is not one candidate that I really like other than Pederson (and even that one has question marks)

[ronjon1990]

7 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

My thing with Dabo Swinney is that he seems like the type of college coach that if things aren't working out right after a year he's just going to pull the typical college coach "never mind I'm just gonna go back to college" thing. 

The sad thing is there is not one candidate that I really like other than Pederson (and even that one has question marks)

It's not a prime time to need a HC for sure. 

I'm high on Kellen Moore and Byron Leftwich, but neither is perfect and both would likely need strong support staff. 

I just know that I want nothing to do with any college coaches right now. 

[Rich7sena]

40 minutes ago, Dodo said:

What are the specific knocks against Dabo? He's been at the program since 03 and built a perennial winner. I only follow college ball at the end of the season so maybe there's some personal stuff about his history I'm not aware of

I'm personally wary of any college coach because that's invariably going to come with full control of the roster. College coaches tend not to have a great sense of what makes a good NFL player.

I think my top choice right now is Todd Bowles. I think he's one of the few defensive minds who actually makes a difference on the field. The Raiders are probably never going to have a Herbert or Mahomes-like talent under center. So I'd rather just move them down a peg with a defensive mastermind.

[NYRaider]

9 hours ago, big_palooka said:

If we are talking a splash hire..... any current HC would cost draft capital to get, so rule that out. No entrenched coach (Tomlin, Peyton, etc.) is leaving their post to come work for Davis. Nor would their teams want them gone.

What former coach is a splash? Pederson... not hardly. 

 That leaves splashy college coaches - Dabo or Harbaugh would be in definition a splash. Shaw or any tier 2 guys wouldn't be a splashy hire imo. 

I want to lean Harbaugh for the connection to the Raiders and unless he wants to run it back, what does he have left to prove at Michigan?

The most Mark Davis thing you could do is hire Dabo and keep Mayock and it's only a splash to him and most hate it.

 

[NYRaider]

6 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

As a fellow Michigan fan I don’t want Harbaugh as the Raiders next HC.  Up until last week his legacy there was defined by his inability to beat OSU.  Now he wins one time and he becomes the next hot NFL coaching candidate.  I think if he loses that game the rumblings of “if we don’t win next year it’s time to consider moving on.”

2 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Harbaugh has always been on the NFL radar coach because he performed well turning around the 49ers. He didn't become "the next hot NFL candidate" because of this season.

College coaches can only do so much with players they recruit. The man can coach, period. Players respect him and buy into what he's teaching.  He's well connected in the league when it comes to forming a staff. 

You can do a lot worse than Jim.

Coming into this season Michigan was 3-17 over the previous 20 matchups against Ohio State so it's not like any coach there has had success against OSU. Michigan hadn't won the Big 10 since 2004, they won it this year, they haven't won a national title since 1997, they have a chance too this year. Michigan had one 10 win season in the 7 years before Harbaugh took over and they've had 4 in the 7 years he's been there and in one of those seasons they only played 6 games due to covid. 

Jim Harbaugh has won at every level and turned struggling programs into contenders at Stanford/Michigan and with the 49ers. 

[MrOaktown_56]

10 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Coming into this season Michigan was 3-17 over the previous 20 matchups against Ohio State so it's not like any coach there has had success against OSU. Michigan hadn't won the Big 10 since 2004, they won it this year, they haven't won a national title since 1997, they have a chance too this year. Michigan had one 10 win season in the 7 years before Harbaugh took over and they've had 4 in the 7 years he's been there and in one of those seasons they only played 6 games due to covid. 

Jim Harbaugh has won at every level and turned struggling programs into contenders at Stanford/Michigan and with the 49ers. 

Harbaugh would be amazing. You either perform or he'll get rid of you. We need that.

[NYRaider]

7 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

Harbaugh would be amazing. You either perform or he'll get rid of you. We need that.

The thing that makes Harbaugh the most attractive option, IMO, is that he knows how to build a winning culture. Stanford was one of the biggest laughing stocks in college football and by the time Harbaugh had all of his own guys in the program they went 12-1 and were a national championship contender. 

Michigan has one of the most storied traditions in college football but hadn't even won the Big 10 in over a decade or had a chance to play for a title in over 2 decades before Harbaugh showed up. Now they're one of the best teams in the country again. 

The 49ers are also one of the most marquee franchises in the NFL but hadn't had a winning season in 10 years or made a conference championship game in 15 years. In Harbaugh's first 3 seasons there they had a winning record each year and made the NFC championship game each year including a super bowl appearance. 

[MrOaktown_56]

19 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

The thing that makes Harbaugh the most attractive option, IMO, is that he knows how to build a winning culture. Stanford was one of the biggest laughing stocks in college football and by the time Harbaugh had all of his own guys in the program they went 12-1 and were a national championship contender. 

Michigan has one of the most storied traditions in college football but hadn't even won the Big 10 in over a decade or had a chance to play for a title in over 2 decades before Harbaugh showed up. Now they're one of the best teams in the country again. 

The 49ers are also one of the most marquee franchises in the NFL but hadn't had a winning season in 10 years or made a conference championship game in 15 years. In Harbaugh's first 3 seasons there they had a winning record each year and made the NFC championship game each year including a super bowl appearance. 

Hopefully he's the home run hire.

[big_palooka]

28 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Coming into this season Michigan was 3-17 over the previous 20 matchups against Ohio State so it's not like any coach there has had success against OSU. Michigan hadn't won the Big 10 since 2004, they won it this year, they haven't won a national title since 1997, they have a chance too this year. Michigan had one 10 win season in the 7 years before Harbaugh took over and they've had 4 in the 7 years he's been there and in one of those seasons they only played 6 games due to covid. 

Jim Harbaugh has won at every level and turned struggling programs into contenders at Stanford/Michigan and with the 49ers. 

Michigan fans expectations were completely out of whack. Expecting him to be the next Saban or something crazy early on. Michigan was a down program with lackluster recruiting when he came in there. He's taken a lot of heat losing to Ohio St. who has been powerhouse since Urban Meyer got there in 2012. 

College and recruiting is a beast. It take a lot to put together a championship caliber team. More so when you are competing with Ohio St, Alabama, etc. who are consistently tops in recruiting. 

 

 

[NYRaider]

9 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

College and recruiting is a beast. It take a lot to put together a championship caliber team. More so when you are competing with Ohio St, Alabama, etc. who are consistently tops in recruiting. 

The NIL makes things completely different as well because recruiting is essentially becoming which programs boosters are willing to pay recruits the most.

[raidersedge]

Mark will look to hire a big name head coach because he was scarred by Dennis Allen. Mark hired Reggie and let him hire the coach and Mark hated Dennis Allen. That format just won't work for Mark anymore. He thinks the HC is more important than the GM. I mean, its not unheard of in the NFL to hire the coach and then the coach hires the GM. Off the top of my head I believe Seahawks, Chiefs and 49ers all use that model. The question is what coach is worthy of this honor? there isn't many I can think of. Jim Harbaugh, Dabo? which would be a real risky to give him all that power. Maybe David Shaw who was once one of the hottest names but Stanford has fallen on hard times as of late.  The only other name I can think of his Doug Pederson who is a Super Bowl champ. I can't see any of these guys like Daboll, Bieniemy or Leftwich getting all the power. I don't see it. 

[Bitty 2.0]

45 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

Michigan fans expectations were completely out of whack. Expecting him to be the next Saban or something crazy early on. Michigan was a down program with lackluster recruiting when he came in there. He's taken a lot of heat losing to Ohio St. who has been powerhouse since Urban Meyer got there in 2012. 

College and recruiting is a beast. It take a lot to put together a championship caliber team. More so when you are competing with Ohio St, Alabama, etc. who are consistently tops in recruiting. 

 

 

Michigan does have some good players on the team but Ohio ST is filled with 5 star recruits

Edited December 14, 2021 by Bitty 2.0

[roi34]

5 hours ago, SodakRaiders said:

Tomlin isn't leaving Pittsburg, Payton isn't leaving NO.  When Harbaugh left SF he was practically ran out of town.  All the talk was how the players were done with him because he was exhausting and that he needed to go back to college so players would only have to be around him for 4 years.  

Though I could see Carroll leaving the Seahawks.  Russ seams to want out.  They don't have a very good team and he is 70.  

But my list would look like this...

GM

1. Ed Dodds
2. Thomas Dimitroff
3. Pete Carroll

HC

1. Matt Eberflus
2. Todd Bowles
3. Wink Martindale

 

Todd Bowles needs a crazy good OC or hard pass. hes a great dcoord but really didnt love what i saw as HC

[jpaulthe1st]

17 minutes ago, roi34 said:

Todd Bowles needs a crazy good OC or hard pass. hes a great dcoord but really didnt love what i saw as HC

Is Bowles linked to any strong offensive minds? 
 

Edit-  His list of O.C.’s was terrible while he was with the Jets (Chan Gailey, John Morton, and Jeremy Bates). 

Edited December 15, 2021 by jpaulthe1st