How much blame belongs to George Paton?

[Broncofan]

As for WR, I know it's unpopular - but the reality is that the O doesn't function without Jeudy in the lineup.   It's not just him - it's that Sutton and he & Dulcich all work in different areas, and the O creates more opps when all 3 are on the field.    Now, Sutton's not returned to his pre-ACL form, either - but his play style was never going to be as a target hog alpha - because of how he wins (he wins with box out, 50-50 balls, and sitting down / ID'ing zone well - big-body or excellent technique CB's give him trouble - what we saw on TNF with IND, and with NYJ and the elite Sauce Gardner, and I'm guessing Jaycee Horn last week <remember I said I wasn't going to watch live games until Hackett's fired, haven't watched the recording yet lol>).

And to be clear, Jeudy & Sutton both get open - and it's not just the eye test, the metrics bear this out - although this doesn't count the last 2 games, so Sutton's struggles last week won't likely be factored in:

 

The catch score doesn't factor for QB play or uncatchable throws - why Davante Adams ranks right there with them (because up to Week 11, Carr's play was brutal when he threw to Adams).     But what it also says - WR is likely not a high priority this offseason, other than to find depth (because you can't just have 2 guys who can play on your squad).     The other ripple effect - if you have 2 real WR threats, you don't have D's keying on Dulcich - which clearly happened in the TEN game, esp once Jeudy left on the 1st play of the game.

The play with Jeudy is to take the 5th year option - that way, no long-term commitment required.     Keep in mind the interest for him at this year's trade deadline was high - so IMO there's no risk with the contract #.     Given our IOL, DL and cover ILB needs (RB too but again, this shouldn't be a problem) - WR is not likely an area that Paton addresses with high draft capital (or at least, he shouldn't).   If Sutton/Jeudy are still not the answer next year with a better OL/RB corps, by all means go after a draft WR in 2024....but not next year.  

 

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Broncofan

[The Helicopter]

On 11/30/2022 at 6:39 AM, big_palooka said:

My understanding was Wilson has input on the offense. The early comments from the trade suggested he'd be heavily involved:

https://www.9news.com/article/sports/nfl/denver-broncos/russell-wilson-will-have-input-on-denver-broncos-offense/73-7ebe933a-7179-4d26-a00d-11e591cc81e6

And leading into the season, there was the come to be expected cornball comments about Wilson calling Hackett in the middle of the night to discuss the offense and give his input, etc. 

What happened with all that? It's became, the offense sucks, it's all Hackett's fault now? Russ has no input, just lining up under center calling Seattle audibles apparently?

And the problem with him being a Cousins/Tannehill version QB is his game was never played from the pocket. His strength was making things happen with his feet which has clearly devolved. He can't or won't throw over the middle consistently. So what are you left with? 

My opinion of this is Wilson is washed and they all know it. But they can't say it out loud because of the trade/contract and they can't bench him. Hackett looks like a guy who is out of ideas. Strapped with a bottom tier QB who has an unliiiiiiiimited leash in the organization currently and he knows he will take the fall soon.

Question then becomes what quality coach will take this job with the #1 priority being fix our terrible investment..... 

Normally seeing you around here brings animosity but I'm glad you're bringing up these points because it enriches this hard conversation. What happens if Hackett is retained next year? Sounds crazy, but what if bringing in another HC with a toxic QB is not an option? What if Paton tells Wilson and Hackett to put their big boy pants on, dig in, and figure this out together because ownership is too cheap to eat their contracts. If we fix the injuries is this situation tenable? Maybe Hackett would rather quit than do this another year.

I'm curious to know what the worst case scenarios are. What are all the scenarios and how could they play out.

[big_palooka]

 

 

[jolly red giant]

On 11/30/2022 at 6:24 PM, BroncoBruin said:

Tom Pelissero is George Paton’s guy so the report about Russ losing the locker room is notable. 

If it’s really this bad, I think you have to seriously consider eating the biggest dead cap hit in NFL history ASAP. Whatever it takes to get rid of him.

 

I think this stuff about Hackett not having lost the locker room is Paton covering his rear-end for not firing Hackett so far this season. 

The stuff about Wilson is likely a shot across his bows - effectively publicly telling him to stop focussing on his image and focus on football. I suspect this is to try and smooth the path for whoever replaces Hackett. 

I think the worst thing to do with be to give Hackett another year with Wilson - they have proven it doesn't work - indeed it is getting worse. We are stuck with Wilson for at least a couple of years so Hackett has to go.

[AKRNA]

My guess is that ownership has taken a step back, put the skids on any changes whatsoever until they get a chance to reevaluate their key personnel.

From the initial presser. 

" Penner referred to George Paton as one of the "sharpest GMs in the business" and Nathaniel Hackett as "a dynamic, up-and-coming head coach." Penner also called Russell Wilson a "dynamic individual" and emphasized the importance of having an elite quarterback.

 And again on the football side, we couldn't be more excited about what we have with George, Nathaniel [and] Russell in place. Those are the first pieces. 

We're going to empower this team led by George Paton and Nathaniel Hackett to make those key decisions. 

Seems to me they were overly optimistic. They essentially turned over the entire franchise to a 1st time HC, a fading QB and a 1st year GM with experience only in personnel acquisition. 

[broncosfan07]

9 minutes ago, AKRNA said:

My guess is that ownership has taken a step back, put the skids on any changes whatsoever until they get a chance to reevaluate their key personnel.

From the initial presser. 

" Penner referred to George Paton as one of the "sharpest GMs in the business" and Nathaniel Hackett as "a dynamic, up-and-coming head coach." Penner also called Russell Wilson a "dynamic individual" and emphasized the importance of having an elite quarterback.

 And again on the football side, we couldn't be more excited about what we have with George, Nathaniel [and] Russell in place. Those are the first pieces. 

We're going to empower this team led by George Paton and Nathaniel Hackett to make those key decisions. 

Seems to me they were overly optimistic. They essentially turned over the entire franchise to a 1st time HC, a fading QB and a 1st year GM with experience only in personnel acquisition. 

They didn’t though which is why there’s no chance Hackett is brought back but also that kind of statement is what I’d expect to hear. Did you want them the come out and say yeah Wilson is probably going to be one of the bottom 5 QBs and fire Hackett before the season?

[AnAngryAmerican]

I think we will see the Walmarts work hard to get Peyton Manning in some sort of a FO role, “Senior football consultant” or “special advisor to the GM” or something. It would be a good PR move - just like Ellis’ hire of Elway after the McDisaster, and Peyton would bring a unique and special perspective to the table that could be useful in assembling the new coaching staff. 

I just hope they go hard for a big name, “Star coach” hire this time. I know it’s a pipe dream but Jim Harbaugh or Sean Payton or someone of that ilk. I’m going to have a real hard time getting enthused over a Dan Quinn retread-type or the equally dice-roll of some young, “hot” coordinator. 

They had a chance to get Quinn - whose only good years in ATL came with Kyle Shanahan & Co. running the offense - but they passed. They had a chance with O’Connell too, the young hot coordinator from the McVay tree but also passed. Time to go big. 

[big_palooka]

2 hours ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

I think we will see the Walmarts work hard to get Peyton Manning in some sort of a FO role, “Senior football consultant” or “special advisor to the GM” or something. It would be a good PR move - just like Ellis’ hire of Elway after the McDisaster, and Peyton would bring a unique and special perspective to the table that could be useful in assembling the new coaching staff. 

I just hope they go hard for a big name, “Star coach” hire this time. I know it’s a pipe dream but Jim Harbaugh or Sean Payton or someone of that ilk. I’m going to have a real hard time getting enthused over a Dan Quinn retread-type or the equally dice-roll of some young, “hot” coordinator. 

They had a chance to get Quinn - whose only good years in ATL came with Kyle Shanahan & Co. running the offense - but they passed. They had a chance with O’Connell too, the young hot coordinator from the McVay tree but also passed. Time to go big. 

Thinking big is great, the problem is what star coach is going to tie their career to an aging quarterback who can't play from the pocket and comes with his own set of rules? Like it or not, Wilson is not a selling point, he's a liability. His best play is long behind him and his contract is an albatross for the foreseeable future.

[AnAngryAmerican]

16 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

Thinking big is great, the problem is what star coach is going to tie their career to an aging quarterback who can't play from the pocket and comes with his own set of rules? Like it or not, Wilson is not a selling point, he's a liability. His best play is long behind him and his contract is an albatross for the foreseeable future.

I don’t disagree. But the 32 jobs go to 32 of the biggest egos of the 7 billion people on planet Earth. The Walmarts can also pay any price. Would a candidate, even a big name, “star” candidate, say no to a chance to do say “I can do what Pete Carroll did” and even beyond that “fix” Russ? I think any candidate - from the young hot shot to the proven star HC - would relish that chance. Or at least a few would. It’s not all about job security, Matt LaFleur took on the chance to work with Aaron Rodgers - an elite talent but also one who is not, by most accounts, the easiest person with whom to work - and has thrived. No situation is analogous but anyone saying “any coach won’t work with Russ“ has to understand these guys are all built a bit differently than the rest of us.

[big_palooka]

9 hours ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

I don’t disagree. But the 32 jobs go to 32 of the biggest egos of the 7 billion people on planet Earth. The Walmarts can also pay any price. Would a candidate, even a big name, “star” candidate, say no to a chance to do say “I can do what Pete Carroll did” and even beyond that “fix” Russ? I think any candidate - from the young hot shot to the proven star HC - would relish that chance. Or at least a few would. It’s not all about job security, Matt LaFleur took on the chance to work with Aaron Rodgers - an elite talent but also one who is not, by most accounts, the easiest person with whom to work - and has thrived. No situation is analogous but anyone saying “any coach won’t work with Russ“ has to understand these guys are all built a bit differently than the rest of us.

I agree there are only 32 of these jobs. But I can't see a reputable coach thinking they can "fix" a 34 year old QB who has lost a step. An upstart coach looking for his first gig, I can see. Jim Harbaugh giving up a dream job, not so much.

The Aaron Rodgers part of this is irrelevant. He was an elite QB with no signs of decline. Any HC lands that job and has a winning QB. Wilson was fading in Seattle and cemented his status in Denver. A HC taking him on will have a challenge ahead of him.

[broncosfan07]

Coaches have massive egos by nature so that’s really not a problem. Money and control over certain aspects talk.

[broncos67]

On 12/1/2022 at 10:34 AM, Broncofan said:

As for WR, I know it's unpopular - but the reality is that the O doesn't function without Jeudy in the lineup.   It's not just him - it's that Sutton and he & Dulcich all work in different areas, and the O creates more opps when all 3 are on the field.    Now, Sutton's not returned to his pre-ACL form, either - but his play style was never going to be as a target hog alpha - because of how he wins (he wins with box out, 50-50 balls, and sitting down / ID'ing zone well - big-body or excellent technique CB's give him trouble - what we saw on TNF with IND, and with NYJ and the elite Sauce Gardner, and I'm guessing Jaycee Horn last week <remember I said I wasn't going to watch live games until Hackett's fired, haven't watched the recording yet lol>).

And to be clear, Jeudy & Sutton both get open - and it's not just the eye test, the metrics bear this out - although this doesn't count the last 2 games, so Sutton's struggles last week won't likely be factored in:

 

The catch score doesn't factor for QB play or uncatchable throws - why Davante Adams ranks right there with them (because up to Week 11, Carr's play was brutal when he threw to Adams).     But what it also says - WR is likely not a high priority this offseason, other than to find depth (because you can't just have 2 guys who can play on your squad).     The other ripple effect - if you have 2 real WR threats, you don't have D's keying on Dulcich - which clearly happened in the TEN game, esp once Jeudy left on the 1st play of the game.

The play with Jeudy is to take the 5th year option - that way, no long-term commitment required.     Keep in mind the interest for him at this year's trade deadline was high - so IMO there's no risk with the contract #.     Given our IOL, DL and cover ILB needs (RB too but again, this shouldn't be a problem) - WR is not likely an area that Paton addresses with high draft capital (or at least, he shouldn't).   If Sutton/Jeudy are still not the answer next year with a better OL/RB corps, by all means go after a draft WR in 2024....but not next year.  

 

 

This team needs more talent at WR. It's crazy to say that but it's true. We need more dynamic skills players. Look at what the offense was trying to do with Dulcich by lining him up alongside Hamler to peel off coverage and take advantage of speed. We need that.

I will pound the table and say we should look at Mecole Hardman. Think he could be had for a relatively low cost. KC probably doesn't re-sign him. We need to remake the back end of the WR room with NFL-caliber talent, preferably talent with speed.

[broncos67]

Also want to point out, Dulcich has all the making of a TE that's going to shine in this league. He's big and athletic, knows how to get open and is good with the ball in his hands. The skillset is very obvious. 

[Broncofan]

1 hour ago, broncos67 said:

This team needs more talent at WR. It's crazy to say that but it's true. We need more dynamic skills players. Look at what the offense was trying to do with Dulcich by lining him up alongside Hamler to peel off coverage and take advantage of speed. We need that.

I will pound the table and say we should look at Mecole Hardman. Think he could be had for a relatively low cost. KC probably doesn't re-sign him. We need to remake the back end of the WR room with NFL-caliber talent, preferably talent with speed.

Hardman is a good target - because he adds that vertical / YAC element and he shouldn’t cost much.   We are on the same page on needing more talent at WR3 & RB - it’s the resource allocation argument I’m making.    RB doesn’t need to cost a ton to upgrade this offseason. 
 

After 2023 we can see if we need to go high-cost investment at WR - just we need upgrades in the trenches far more this offseason - which is almost impossible to go cheap on.   $ / pick capital wise it’s going to cost much more to upgrade.   It doesn’t mean we don’t need to add to the WR / RB corps - we definitely lack depth.    Just the value tier / later rds are the fit for 2023 offseason for WR3 upgrades - not big ticket spends / high draft capital on WR1-2 targets.  RB is a priority, but the ability to do it cheaply is very much there for 2023's offseason.  Resource-wise, trenches need way more resource allocation - but it doesn't mean we can't add WR depth or upgrade RB, just smartly (and not at WR1-2 prices).

Edited December 6, 2022 by Broncofan

[broncos67]

A lot of the usual inflammatory Twitter trolls in Broncos world are out in full force against Paton. All I will say is be careful what you wish for with respect to firing him. Anyone, in any industry, needs to ultimately be held to account for the performance of their team/business/whatever it is. But Paton's first two years have in part been him cleaning up the messes up the late Elway era.

As I've said before, Paton needs to be judged based on how he handles the mess he's gotten himself into with Russ. But I will just say the entire fanbase was clamoring for any kind of QB we could possibly get and he went out and swung for the fences. That, for my money, is a better all in move than any of the patchwork garbage Elway did over the years. I think Paton did well to get a R1 back for Chubb. Quick, decisive choices need to be made though. If he's gonna roll with Hackett and Russ, things need to change immediately.