Josh McDaniels and Dave Ziegler are a problem - What should Mark do?

[big_palooka]

4 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

Similar to Denver (and Jacksonville with Urb), my guess is there will be a lot more chatter about the dysfunction once he's out of the picture. While he's around, guys will mostly stay quiet, speak anonymously, or even play the good soldier. 

With how he's thrown guys under the bus after putting people in bad spots, made horrendous decisions, etc- I find it increasingly difficult to believe he's anywhere near as well liked by most of the players outside of maybe some former Pats guys. 

As for the other coaches, go back and re-read my post. I'd tell NYRaider to as well, but he can't read. 

Yes, there have been some people who flopped in their first NFL HC gigs- Hackett being a good recent example. In his defense, nearly everyone was immediately blaming him for the Broncos woes- it couldn't be Russell Wilson after all. They're still dysfunctional and it goes far beyond Hackett. That said, he didn't do a good job either and probably isn't HC material. But he was an UNKNOWN. 

The college crew? All were UNKNOWN at the NFL level. They weren't hired with the expectation of flaming out and aside from the usual "college to the NFL is a big leap" trope, there wasn't any immediate reason to think they'd fail. 

Josh McDaniels was KNOWN (at least to those who, you know, didn't drink the kool-aid while ignoring his track record). That, to me, makes it worse than the typical dud hire. Dragged along by Brady, embarrassing failure in Denver, horrid in St Louis, serious questions outside of Brady on the offensive side of ball, cheating scandal, dishonesty, big ego, lack of accountability, always some sort of drama with players, a losing record, the list goes on and on with this guy. And anyone not buying the hooplah of 20 years of Tom could, or should, have seen it from a mile away. 

Hiring him was like hiring Matt Rhule now. Hiring him was like giving Urb a second chance. Actually, given the Colts fiasco, it would be like giving Hue a 3rd chance to not be a total moron. 

It's not Josh's first rodeo like most of the names thrown out there. It's his second, and he's still God awful. There was no particularly good reason to believe he wasn't going to fail hard again. It wasn't a bad roll of the dice like Rhule or Saban or Petrino or Urb or Hackett, it was sitting down at the poker table and going all in on blackjack. Nobody should have reasonably thought it would work unless they drank the kool-aid and went out of the way to handwave his history and all context away. 

If we hired, I don't know, Chris Petersen to come coach and it blew up horrendously, I could accept that. No hire is a guaranteed success. But Josh McDaniels was about as close as one could possibly be to a guaranteed failure. 

I see what you are saying and that's fair. But it also ignores the fact he was highly regarded as a coaching candidate for years now. The hire was universally praised by the media and some former players. Other coaches commented on the hire and how tough he was to coach against. It was all very positive. 

And maybe that is the point. Everyone ignored the past in thinking 12+ years have gone by and he "deserved" another shot at it with a fresh perspective. 

Personally, I don't see the ego and immaturity that buried him in Denver. I just see a guy who's conservative coaching, in game decisions and roster construction signal he's not cut out for a head job. 

[Bitty 2.0]

7 hours ago, big_palooka said:

It certainly is. Honestly, I was a bit hopped up on hopium. As in just hoping it works out because I'm tired of the constant turnover and set backs. 

This is another coaching failure. Assuming Davis cleans house, that means more roster turnover. Rookies in flux not picked by the incoming regime. New scouts and FO turnover. You're resetting the clock on another rebuild. 

I think everyone is just tired of it and wants to compete. 

Why clean house? The defense is doing good. Keep the DC and let the defense keep developing but on offense fire everyone.

[Geezy]

31 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

I see what you are saying and that's fair. But it also ignores the fact he was highly regarded as a coaching candidate for years now. The hire was universally praised by the media and some former players. Other coaches commented on the hire and how tough he was to coach against. It was all very positive. 

And maybe that is the point. Everyone ignored the past in thinking 12+ years have gone by and he "deserved" another shot at it with a fresh perspective. 

Personally, I don't see the ego and immaturity that buried him in Denver. I just see a guy who's conservative coaching, in game decisions and roster construction signal he's not cut out for a head job. 

I think ego does play a part in his struggles with the Raiders. The Qb situation and just throwing familiar faces to “just run the play” paying no mind to the OL and thinking his scheme will solve all issues. Isn’t he the guy that said he can turn a HS QB Into an All Pro, he might not be saying stuff like that anymore but his actions are on par with that mentality. 

[Jeremy408]

2 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

Thank you.  Plus there’s no salary cap for coaches.  Mark can certainly afford to accept his mistake and fire JMD and pay him his $20M.

if we’re drafting a QB of the future would you want to stint his development under JMD and waste another season with 225M in payroll just on players or spend an extra 20M and get a good HC?  Seems like an obvious choice to me 

Yeah, another good point. Didn't think of it that way, but I guess it does cost more to screw up further than to admit you screwed  up. 

[Nightmare]

9 hours ago, big_palooka said:

 

Personally, I don't see the ego and immaturity that buried him in Denver. I just see a guy who's conservative coaching, in game decisions and roster construction signal he's not cut out for a head job. 

I’m not sure it could be labelled as ego, but there are definitely some personality flaws still in place with Josh. You can tell from his pre- or post-game press conferences that he’ll still try to shift blame onto others for his poor decisions, which is an immature trait.

Throwing O’Connell under the bus after the Chargers game, bizarre deflections from his poor decisions (like saying we needed to score twice anyway to try and justify kicking the FG against the Steelers). Stuff like that.

[big_palooka]

4 hours ago, Nightmare said:

I’m not sure it could be labelled as ego, but there are definitely some personality flaws still in place with Josh. You can tell from his pre- or post-game press conferences that he’ll still try to shift blame onto others for his poor decisions, which is an immature trait.

Throwing O’Connell under the bus after the Chargers game, bizarre deflections from his poor decisions (like saying we needed to score twice anyway to try and justify kicking the FG against the Steelers). Stuff like that.

Agree with this. Not so much ego as just having an accountability problem.

[RaidersForever]

18 hours ago, bucksavage1 said:

We aren’t firing McDaniels mid year.  anonymous text from Raiders player sent to Hondo 

“F— that,” the player said on the idea of firing McDaniels. 

“I think everybody is frustrated. We share that frustration, but I can’t think of one of us that really wants to see the coach fired in the middle of the season. Just give up on the year? Who does that? Who quits? That doesn’t make any sense to me. Frustrated? You better believe it. Wonder about some stuff? Of course. Want a guy fired? Lost our locker room? Give me a f—ing break.”

     No one cares what Brandon Bolden thinks.

[bucksavage1]

3 minutes ago, RaidersForever said:

     No one cares what Brandon Bolden thinks.

I can guarantee that’s not Bolden lol. That actually sounds like Josh

[RaidersForever]

14 minutes ago, bucksavage1 said:

I can guarantee that’s not Bolden lol. That actually sounds like Josh

     It might be, but I'm willing to bet half my savings account that it's a Patriot Way Scholarship player who knows he wouldn't get a roster spot anywhere else.

[bucksavage1]

15 minutes ago, RaidersForever said:

     It might be, but I'm willing to bet half my savings account that it's a Patriot Way Scholarship player who knows he wouldn't get a roster spot anywhere else.

I just don’t think Hondo would waste his time sending a quote from a player like Bolden. 
 

You have to look at it like the players are playing for their jobs too. New regime = new players

[MrOaktown_56]

18 hours ago, big_palooka said:

I see what you are saying and that's fair. But it also ignores the fact he was highly regarded as a coaching candidate for years now. The hire was universally praised by the media and some former players. Other coaches commented on the hire and how tough he was to coach against. It was all very positive. 

And maybe that is the point. Everyone ignored the past in thinking 12+ years have gone by and he "deserved" another shot at it with a fresh perspective. 

Personally, I don't see the ego and immaturity that buried him in Denver. I just see a guy who's conservative coaching, in game decisions and roster construction signal he's not cut out for a head job. 

Forget the ego and immaturity, he's not capable of integrating good players into his gameplan. He's alienated Carr, Waller, and now Renfrow. That's not good at all. All of them have played good to very good ball and he couldn't make it work. I want a coach who will showcase his players strengths and minimize their weaknesses. That's what it's all about. Case in point Ben Johnson with Goff.

[NYRaider]

4 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

Forget the ego and immaturity, he's not capable of integrating good players into his gameplan. He's alienated Carr, Waller, and now Renfrow. That's not good at all. All of them have played good to very good ball and he couldn't make it work. I want a coach who will showcase his players strengths and minimize their weaknesses. That's what it's all about. Case in point Ben Johnson with Goff.

Renfrow has always been overrated and was hurt last season. Carr stunk it all the way up, not sure how that is on JMD. And Waller was faking an injury because he hated DC.

[MrOaktown_56]

8 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Renfrow has always been overrated and was hurt last season. Carr stunk it all the way up, not sure how that is on JMD. And Waller was faking an injury because he hated DC.

If you say so

[true2form]

1 hour ago, NYRaider said:

Renfrow has always been overrated and was hurt last season. Carr stunk it all the way up, not sure how that is on JMD. And Waller was faking an injury because he hated DC.

That's not the point.  All three of them were way better before Josh than with him.  You can say Carr still wasn't good enough, Renfrow was a fluke, and Waller is injury prone, but they all performed a million times better with Gruden.

It's about getting the most out of your players.  It's not about running whatever their talent is into the ground and then trading them for peanuts(if that).

Do you think Josh has had an impact on Jimmy?  Because he's certainly not playing his best ball under Josh either.

[NYRaider]

Just now, true2form said:

That's not the point.  All three of them were way better before Josh than with him.  You can say Carr still wasn't good enough, Renfrow was a fluke, and Waller is injury prone, but they all performed a million times better with Gruden.

It's about getting the most out of your players.  It's not about running whatever their talent is into the ground and then trading them for peanuts(if that).

Do you think Josh has had an impact on Jimmy?  Because he's certainly not playing his best ball under Josh either.

Context is important, Renfrow only performed better in a year that he was forced into being the #1 target and a large portion of that was after Gruden was fired. In his two full seasons with Gruden as the play caller he averaged like 600 yards per year, decent but nothing great. 

Carr in his 3 full seasons under Gruden averaged 4,050 yards / 22 TD / 9 INT

In his only season with JMD he was on pace 4,000 yards / 27 TD / 15 INT 

Wasn't much of a drop off at all, lol.