The Good, The Bad, The 'it's not preseason anymore'.

[Jeremy408]

11 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Thoughts on Graham's defense, which is why the team is improved as a whole? I said they'd be middle of the pack this year. You labeled me a Graham fanboy, think you owe him a least some respect given the job he's done with marginal talent. 

Hey he's keeping the points down. After the lions game, he has my respect.

[big_palooka]

9 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

Maxx was Maxx. 

Koonce wasn't let on the field. 

Deablo has been out. 

Moehrig is still pretty mid. 

Amik has flashed, but he's still inconsistent. 

That said, thank you for naming 5 names. Hard to say Graham has "nothing to work with" only to then have half the defense as good/improved. 

Amazing the lengths you will go to be "right" on any argument. C and D players improving to C+ and B- players is on coaching. 

If you can't see the marked improvement under Graham in year 2, with marginal at best talents and bottom 3 in defensive spending.

Does it not stand to reason you get his unit better interior players, maybe a CB 1 that they could really turn a corner into a top tier unit? What he's doing with 1 star player and a bunch of JAGs is notable. 

[bucksavage1]

12 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

Maxx was Maxx. 

Koonce wasn't let on the field. 

Deablo has been out. 

Moehrig is still pretty mid. 

Amik has flashed, but he's still inconsistent. 

That said, thank you for naming 5 names. Hard to say Graham has "nothing to work with" only to then have half the defense as good/improved. 

Pat Graham has been our best DC in nearly 20 years. He’s taken a consistently bad unit into the cusp of a top 10 unit

He’s taken mid to late round picks from the other admin and made them contributors to a defense 

Maxx has went from pro bowl level player to all-pro and potentially DPOY.

People panned the signings of guys like Epps and Spillane but they have been great.

If he stays, which he should I expect to see similar jumps with this years class

[ronjon1990]

3 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Amazing the lengths you will go to be "right" on any argument. C and D players improving to C+ and B- players is on coaching. 

If you can't see the marked improvement under Graham in year 2, with marginal at best talents and bottom 3 in defensive spending.

Does it not stand to reason you get his unit better interior players, maybe a CB 1 that they could really turn a corner into a top tier unit? What he's doing with 1 star player and a bunch of JAGs is notable. 

Amazing the lengths you will go to defend poor coaching until it's beyond clear that you're wrong. 

Only about a month ago, you were still willing to slob Josh's knob and Patriot Way until it shot blanks and ran dry. I don't think your ability to actually criticize coaching has even recovered to a point of one being able to take it seriously. 

No, it doesn't stand to reason for me. Why? Because like your now unemployed daddy, Patrick Graham came in with a piss poor track record. You know what he did beforehand? He got a couple of piss poor defenses marginally better than absolute dog ****, the teams poured money and draft picks into the defense, and Patrick Graham still flamed out and fielded bottom tier defenses. Facts. It happened. It's there to go read about. 

You can fall back on your knees and worship at the altar of Graham all you want, the indisputable facts remain that his track record sucks and we're still bottom tier and nothing in his history- much like your dad's- indicates he's capable of actually building a defense and sustaining it against anything but bottom rung offenses the vast majority of the time, and even then only barely sustaining against scrubs. 

Hell, the pro-Graham community can't even get on the same page on his performance and shortcomings. 

Maxx is Maxx. Coaching don't matter with him. 

The other 10 guys on the field?

Is Spillane a JAG or is he tough, heady, and has a nose for the ball? I see a lot of praise for him (and a lot of this praise pre-dated him playing under Graham, though I was skeptical of the signing). Which is it?

Moehrig, Amik, Epps, Hobbs, Bennett- are they JAGs or guys with a bunch of potential showing marked improvement? Which is it? And, hey, having the 28th ranked pass defense being a flex is......a stretch. But you do you, booboo. 

Deablo hasn't played enough this year to determine whether or not he's actually improving. 

Koonce was kept on the sideline most of the year despite having some of the most potential. Sorry, that's a coordinator's call. I blame Graham for that as there's little to no evidence Graham didn't enjoy practical autonomy on the defensive side of the ball under Josh. 

IDL hasn't improved much at all. 

And yet the pro-Grahamers will sit here simultaneously saying the defense is making big improvements while arguing that the defens is still statistically bad because of a lack of talent. I swear, just like with the Patriot Way, people will practice mental gymnastics all day long trying to have it both ways to defend this pogue. Which one is it? They good and improved and can stop offenses not led by practice squad QBs? Or are they JAGs with a lack of talent which means we shouldn't criticize Graham's overall performance? 

By the way, sorry it chaps your *** that I was "right" and called it with your pops every step of the way. I know that having to pull a complete 180 on him just to save any face here after you shouted from the rooftops he deserved 3 years over the last 22 months had to be some real spur grapes for you. 

I was cool letting all that slide since you came around, but seeing as you now feel confident enough to wade back into the fray to defend your man, gloves are off. Why are you even still here? Go hang out in the Patriot Way sub, dude. Or get back to trick-or-treating while your daddy-o loses his job. Because really it's pretty hard to take anything you say seriously given how fast you ran it back on your convictions about Josh and the Way once you realized how incredibly delusional you would look by continuing to defend him. Get off the bandwagon, homer, Foxborough is waiting for you. 

[BackinBlack]

3 hours ago, big_palooka said:

The defense still plays when they lose. through 10 weeks, they are middle of the pack.

Regardless, a year ago they couldn't stop any of the worst teams could they?

Haha they definitely have improved I agree. But there strength of Os played has been way brutal. 
we’ve played 2 good Os, buff and det and buff did what they wanted, and det was able to move the ball, but we got turnovers. 
the turnovers this year is definitely a welcome sight, and way more sacks, so I do agree the D is coming on. 
 

still need to upgrade at some key positions, 

I do know you’ve always been an advocate for more talent on D to really be able to judge PG, which I agree, he is doing great with what he has been given. 
 

just being ‘realistic’ that after dolphins /kc our stats may drop from 5 places or so if we give up back to back 30+ games

[big_palooka]

31 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

Amazing the lengths you will go to defend poor coaching until it's beyond clear that you're wrong. 

Only about a month ago, you were still willing to slob Josh's knob and Patriot Way until it shot blanks and ran dry. I don't think your ability to actually criticize coaching has even recovered to a point of one being able to take it seriously. 

No, it doesn't stand to reason for me. Why? Because like your now unemployed daddy, Patrick Graham came in with a piss poor track record. You know what he did beforehand? He got a couple of piss poor defenses marginally better than absolute dog ****, the teams poured money and draft picks into the defense, and Patrick Graham still flamed out and fielded bottom tier defenses. Facts. It happened. It's there to go read about. 

You can fall back on your knees and worship at the altar of Graham all you want, the indisputable facts remain that his track record sucks and we're still bottom tier and nothing in his history- much like your dad's- indicates he's capable of actually building a defense and sustaining it against anything but bottom rung offenses the vast majority of the time, and even then only barely sustaining against scrubs. 

Hell, the pro-Graham community can't even get on the same page on his performance and shortcomings. 

Maxx is Maxx. Coaching don't matter with him. 

The other 10 guys on the field?

Is Spillane a JAG or is he tough, heady, and has a nose for the ball? I see a lot of praise for him (and a lot of this praise pre-dated him playing under Graham, though I was skeptical of the signing). Which is it?

Moehrig, Amik, Epps, Hobbs, Bennett- are they JAGs or guys with a bunch of potential showing marked improvement? Which is it? And, hey, having the 28th ranked pass defense being a flex is......a stretch. But you do you, booboo. 

Deablo hasn't played enough this year to determine whether or not he's actually improving. 

Koonce was kept on the sideline most of the year despite having some of the most potential. Sorry, that's a coordinator's call. I blame Graham for that as there's little to no evidence Graham didn't enjoy practical autonomy on the defensive side of the ball under Josh. 

IDL hasn't improved much at all. 

And yet the pro-Grahamers will sit here simultaneously saying the defense is making big improvements while arguing that the defens is still statistically bad because of a lack of talent. I swear, just like with the Patriot Way, people will practice mental gymnastics all day long trying to have it both ways to defend this pogue. Which one is it? They good and improved and can stop offenses not led by practice squad QBs? Or are they JAGs with a lack of talent which means we shouldn't criticize Graham's overall performance? 

By the way, sorry it chaps your *** that I was "right" and called it with your pops every step of the way. I know that having to pull a complete 180 on him just to save any face here after you shouted from the rooftops he deserved 3 years over the last 22 months had to be some real spur grapes for you. 

I was cool letting all that slide since you came around, but seeing as you now feel confident enough to wade back into the fray to defend your man, gloves are off. Why are you even still here? Go hang out in the Patriot Way sub, dude. Or get back to trick-or-treating while your daddy-o loses his job. Because really it's pretty hard to take anything you say seriously given how fast you ran it back on your convictions about Josh and the Way once you realized how incredibly delusional you would look by continuing to defend him. Get off the bandwagon, homer, Foxborough is waiting for you. 

Yeeeesh....... someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.

Are you capable of responding without being completely arrogant and passive aggressive to people? Being defensive is a bad look on you.

Go take a lap hot shot. 

 

[Justwinning]

2 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

Amazing the lengths you will go to defend poor coaching until it's beyond clear that you're wrong. 

Only about a month ago, you were still willing to slob Josh's knob and Patriot Way until it shot blanks and ran dry. I don't think your ability to actually criticize coaching has even recovered to a point of one being able to take it seriously. 

No, it doesn't stand to reason for me. Why? Because like your now unemployed daddy, Patrick Graham came in with a piss poor track record. You know what he did beforehand? He got a couple of piss poor defenses marginally better than absolute dog ****, the teams poured money and draft picks into the defense, and Patrick Graham still flamed out and fielded bottom tier defenses. Facts. It happened. It's there to go read about. 

You can fall back on your knees and worship at the altar of Graham all you want, the indisputable facts remain that his track record sucks and we're still bottom tier and nothing in his history- much like your dad's- indicates he's capable of actually building a defense and sustaining it against anything but bottom rung offenses the vast majority of the time, and even then only barely sustaining against scrubs. 

Hell, the pro-Graham community can't even get on the same page on his performance and shortcomings. 

Maxx is Maxx. Coaching don't matter with him. 

The other 10 guys on the field?

Is Spillane a JAG or is he tough, heady, and has a nose for the ball? I see a lot of praise for him (and a lot of this praise pre-dated him playing under Graham, though I was skeptical of the signing). Which is it?

Moehrig, Amik, Epps, Hobbs, Bennett- are they JAGs or guys with a bunch of potential showing marked improvement? Which is it? And, hey, having the 28th ranked pass defense being a flex is......a stretch. But you do you, booboo. 

Deablo hasn't played enough this year to determine whether or not he's actually improving. 

Koonce was kept on the sideline most of the year despite having some of the most potential. Sorry, that's a coordinator's call. I blame Graham for that as there's little to no evidence Graham didn't enjoy practical autonomy on the defensive side of the ball under Josh. 

IDL hasn't improved much at all. 

And yet the pro-Grahamers will sit here simultaneously saying the defense is making big improvements while arguing that the defens is still statistically bad because of a lack of talent. I swear, just like with the Patriot Way, people will practice mental gymnastics all day long trying to have it both ways to defend this pogue. Which one is it? They good and improved and can stop offenses not led by practice squad QBs? Or are they JAGs with a lack of talent which means we shouldn't criticize Graham's overall performance? 

By the way, sorry it chaps your *** that I was "right" and called it with your pops every step of the way. I know that having to pull a complete 180 on him just to save any face here after you shouted from the rooftops he deserved 3 years over the last 22 months had to be some real spur grapes for you. 

I was cool letting all that slide since you came around, but seeing as you now feel confident enough to wade back into the fray to defend your man, gloves are off. Why are you even still here? Go hang out in the Patriot Way sub, dude. Or get back to trick-or-treating while your daddy-o loses his job. Because really it's pretty hard to take anything you say seriously given how fast you ran it back on your convictions about Josh and the Way once you realized how incredibly delusional you would look by continuing to defend him. Get off the bandwagon, homer, Foxborough is waiting for you. 

Your hate for PG is unreasonable. 

[Darbsk]

17 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Thoughts on Graham's defense, which is why the team is improved as a whole? I said they'd be middle of the pack this year. You labeled me a Graham fanboy, think you owe him a least some respect given the job he's done with marginal talent. 

What I see when I watch our defence is a unit that has tried to start doing simple things. I see less blown coverages, less missed tackles and maybe it’s been simplified so the players can play faster and not be confused or miscommunicate. I don’t see any complicated concepts and a good offence will be able to unpick it. They are not giving things away and making the opposing offences beat us, which the NY teams have been unable to do as they’re poor offences.

I think the additions of Epps and Spillane have helped with regards communication and maybe they’re two guys that are consistent and very solid. Neither is an All Pro but they seem to know their jobs and have added a reliability to the D.

I think we’re still limited from a pure talent standpoint. No elite corners but a few try hard, gutsy players in Hobbs,  Amik, Hall and Bennett (Peters is the exception). Moehrig is very solid back there now and pretty reliable. The DLine again has a bunch of backup/rotation guys plus the superb Crosby. Koonce has actually flashed some pass rush skills (which we all knew he had). Jenkins has been solid without really adding any pass rush. Nicholls hasnt been a liability. Butler has the odd flash and is probably the best pass rusher we have inside. The rookies we haven’t really seen enough of and that’s a little disappointing especially as the starters are not ripping it up out there.

The LBs I’m happy with, Spillane is good and Deablo and Masterson are not terrible and we can make do with them. Burney looks to have some potential.

Given the talent level, I’d say they are playing better than the sum of their parts, which to me seems like good coaching. I think we desperately need to add a Pro Bowl quality DT plus a CB to take over from Peters. If we can do that it could take the D to the next level as we’re limited by talent right now and will get exposed against a great offence like Miami or KC.

[NYRaider]

1 hour ago, Justwinning said:

Your hate for PG is unreasonable. 

PG has definitely made the most out of a unit lacking talent at all three levels this year.

We're currently 18th in DVOA compared to 29th last year.

[MrOaktown_56]

1 hour ago, Darbsk said:

What I see when I watch our defence is a unit that has tried to start doing simple things. I see less blown coverages, less missed tackles and maybe it’s been simplified so the players can play faster and not be confused or miscommunicate. I don’t see any complicated concepts and a good offence will be able to unpick it. They are not giving things away and making the opposing offences beat us, which the NY teams have been unable to do as they’re poor offences.

I think the additions of Epps and Spillane have helped with regards communication and maybe they’re two guys that are consistent and very solid. Neither is an All Pro but they seem to know their jobs and have added a reliability to the D.

I think we’re still limited from a pure talent standpoint. No elite corners but a few try hard, gutsy players in Hobbs,  Amik, Hall and Bennett (Peters is the exception). Moehrig is very solid back there now and pretty reliable. The DLine again has a bunch of backup/rotation guys plus the superb Crosby. Koonce has actually flashed some pass rush skills (which we all knew he had). Jenkins has been solid without really adding any pass rush. Nicholls hasnt been a liability. Butler has the odd flash and is probably the best pass rusher we have inside. The rookies we haven’t really seen enough of and that’s a little disappointing especially as the starters are not ripping it up out there.

The LBs I’m happy with, Spillane is good and Deablo and Masterson are not terrible and we can make do with them. Burney looks to have some potential.

Given the talent level, I’d say they are playing better than the sum of their parts, which to me seems like good coaching. I think we desperately need to add a Pro Bowl quality DT plus a CB to take over from Peters. If we can do that it could take the D to the next level as we’re limited by talent right now and will get exposed against a great offence like Miami or KC.

Playing better than the sum of their parts is exactly what I define as good coaching and that's what I feel PG has done. Not saying he's an elite DC but he's doing pretty good.

[ronjon1990]

2 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Yeeeesh....... someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.

Are you capable of responding without being completely arrogant and passive aggressive to people? Being defensive is a bad look on you.

Go take a lap hot shot. 

 

Yeah, I responded jiust fine originally. You chose to make an arrogant comment, I simply responded in mind, princess. See how that works? 

 

[ronjon1990]

1 hour ago, Justwinning said:

Your hate for PG is unreasonable. 

So was my hate for McDaniels. Next. 

[big_palooka]

16 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

Yeah, I responded jiust fine originally. You chose to make an arrogant comment, I simply responded in mind, princess. See how that works? 

 

This comment was arrogant to you?

7 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Amazing the lengths you will go to be "right" on any argument. C and D players improving to C+ and B- players is on coaching. 

If you can't see the marked improvement under Graham in year 2, with marginal at best talents and bottom 3 in defensive spending.

Does it not stand to reason you get his unit better interior players, maybe a CB 1 that they could really turn a corner into a top tier unit? What he's doing with 1 star player and a bunch of JAGs is notable. 

Yeesh.... how thin is your skin?

 

 

[Justwinning]

27 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

So was my hate for McDaniels. Next. 

Sometimes, all we need to do to feel a little better is to go outside and touch some grass.

[Justwinning]

45 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

PG has definitely made the most out of a unit lacking talent at all three levels this year.

We're currently 18th in DVOA compared to 29th last year.

Yup I agree. 
 

Apparently that kind of improvement calls for PG to lose his job 🤷🏽‍♂️