AP_allday2869 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 Out of all the fantastic receivers that this franchise has had over the years, Jefferson is on pace to be potentially the best of them all. It would be truly idiotic if we traded him, especially if we draft a QBOTF this year or next. He is the exact type of player you need for a young quarterback to help him succeed at the next level. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrplChilPill Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 I think the answer is complex. This team has massive holes on defense....if Hunter leaves, they have like 3-4 decent to good starters on D. The OL is not good enough, IMO. They have no QB right now. I'm not sure how you fix all those holes w/o perfect drafts and FA signings, and no GM is perfect (and I'm not sure this one is good or not yet, too early to tell, but the results are not great). OTOH, JJ is one of the best players in the league. Truly elite. He could make an average QB look well above average. So, the question is, what can you get for JJ, and is that enough to fill a lot of holes and fix this team? I think the answer is maybe. Like, if they can deal with Arizona for their first pick, and you get an elite QB....then pick DL with pick 11....is that team better than the team with JJ and the 4th QB (or Kirk and a DL)? Not just for next year, but for the next 5-10 years? Because if Kirk comes back and is good, they aren't getting a top QB in the draft in 2025. And, IMO, taking a QB at 11 after signing Kirk makes no sense, given the holes on D and the fact you just invested heavily in the present, rather the future. I guess it depends, greatly, on what you think of a team's ability to close this many holes with only 1 day 2 draft pick and limited money (if they sign Kirk and JJ, and maybe Hunter, it seems unlikely they can sign many good FAs). And if you are more worried about the next year or two than the next decade (assuming they draft the right QB this year). The option of keeping JJ and drafting a QB this year.....I think is a long term play. Because I can't see how you fix the D if you use your draft capital on QB (either trading up or sitting put). I'm ok with that strategy. I'm ok, though won't like, trading JJ to AZ for their top pick and taking a QB there. I'm ok with bringing back Kirk and taking DL at 11. I think those are all defensible strategies. The one I don't like is signing Kirk and still taking a QB at 11. That just doesn't make sense to me. The lack of impact from the first two drafts on D is really hindering a "best" strategy here. I don't think any of them are great for 2024..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swede700 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 (edited) While I appreciate the thoughts, I don't think the answer is all that complex. Right now, they're basically the right long-term QB away from having a top 5-7 offense in the NFL. They have a decent O-Line, young stars at 1-2 at WR, a young RB with great potential and a locked-up top-5 TE when healthy. This seems identical to a conversation we had several years ago about whether it's worth it to weaken a big strength to try to improve a weakness, except at that time, I think it was the defense that was the strength of the team. If you weaken a strength to strengthen a weakness, all you're likely left with is a worse strength and likely only a slightly better weakness, which sounds like mediocrity to me...which is exactly where they've been. Right now, with the offense being the strength of the team, they're going to need it to help carry the team while the defense continues to be infused with talent, especially with talent that may be better suited to Flores' defensive style. They can't count on riding the offense removing JJ from it. They need to do so, even if the cost is that they won't have more high picks to use on defensive players. They'll just need to do a better job at identifying the right defensive guys for the scheme and developing them...the fact is, that they are still in transition defensively, as they've had 3 DCs in 3 years. They're having the same difficulty as the offensive side of the ball had when Zimmer was running through OC...and as you indicated, the lack of an immediate impact from the first 2 drafts on defense has caused some issues, but maybe with some consistency in the defensive scheme, maybe things will start to click for those young guys. Edited January 8 by swede700 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted January 8 Author Share Posted January 8 19 hours ago, vike daddy said: whut? can you in any way substantiate this? Sunglasses on the sidelines indoors for one, seems pretty disengaged especially while he was hurt. Is not a very vocal leader on the sidelines either and outside of his position group not sure how much he really impacts in terms of teaching younger players. Good example and hard worker sure but at times his behavior is a bit aloof and seems more concerned about his own success rather than the teams. And imagine if he maybe does not get paid as much or has a contract issue moving forward. Having him is great but again do they win because of him and the answer so far in his very productive career is no. So is he that important? Is he a diva? Well no not yet but some of his behavior again is a bit aloof and the sunglasses are an odd choice.... No way one would Justin Jefferson over say top flight QBs like Lamar Jackson or Josh Allen or the other top QBs because fact is they would win more with a QB like Lamar instead of a WR like Justin Jefferson and say Kirk Cousins but that is the ideal, more likely going to be Penix, Daniels, Ewers or Bo Nix at QB potentially. So what is going to win more? Yeah the great QB is not the great WR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SemperFeist Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 I just can’t anymore 🤦♂️ 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted January 8 Author Share Posted January 8 5 hours ago, SkolMasterMN said: By this logic then why would a team give up a crazy amount for Jefferson? True but some teams gamble and gamble big. Still the New England Patriots had what a few decades of success in the NFL and they never prioritized or paid highly a WR and that worked pretty well for them. Chiefs did the same thing and when Hill got too expensive got rid of him and won a Super Bowl. Sad part is Vikings do not have a super star young QB at the moment to build around, hopefully that will change. 3 hours ago, PrplChilPill said: I think the answer is complex. This team has massive holes on defense....if Hunter leaves, they have like 3-4 decent to good starters on D. The OL is not good enough, IMO. They have no QB right now. I'm not sure how you fix all those holes w/o perfect drafts and FA signings, and no GM is perfect (and I'm not sure this one is good or not yet, too early to tell, but the results are not great). OTOH, JJ is one of the best players in the league. Truly elite. He could make an average QB look well above average. So, the question is, what can you get for JJ, and is that enough to fill a lot of holes and fix this team? I think the answer is maybe. Like, if they can deal with Arizona for their first pick, and you get an elite QB....then pick DL with pick 11....is that team better than the team with JJ and the 4th QB (or Kirk and a DL)? Not just for next year, but for the next 5-10 years? Because if Kirk comes back and is good, they aren't getting a top QB in the draft in 2025. And, IMO, taking a QB at 11 after signing Kirk makes no sense, given the holes on D and the fact you just invested heavily in the present, rather the future. I guess it depends, greatly, on what you think of a team's ability to close this many holes with only 1 day 2 draft pick and limited money (if they sign Kirk and JJ, and maybe Hunter, it seems unlikely they can sign many good FAs). And if you are more worried about the next year or two than the next decade (assuming they draft the right QB this year). The option of keeping JJ and drafting a QB this year.....I think is a long term play. Because I can't see how you fix the D if you use your draft capital on QB (either trading up or sitting put). I'm ok with that strategy. I'm ok, though won't like, trading JJ to AZ for their top pick and taking a QB there. I'm ok with bringing back Kirk and taking DL at 11. I think those are all defensible strategies. The one I don't like is signing Kirk and still taking a QB at 11. That just doesn't make sense to me. The lack of impact from the first two drafts on D is really hindering a "best" strategy here. I don't think any of them are great for 2024..... True the answer is a bit complex because either it depends on the Vikings killing it in the draft, something they absolutely have not done the last two years, or in involves paying Justin Jefferson and getting what exactly? Can he really play that much better at WR than he already has and the team has still lost? What maybe he gets to 2000 yards and actually catches 15 or so TDs, the TDs would help but is that going to make the team overall better? Absolutely not, the team gets better when they get better players and getting one great player and paying him does not make them collect and sign/draft better players around him. And does a WR really change the game if what is around him is kind of suspect, absolutely not. To win in the NFL you need to be solid to good at every single position on the field so that means a great roster not one great WR. Keep Jefferson, that is great but not sure they win long term because they have yet to do so with Jefferson on the roster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swede700 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 (edited) Yep, diva-like... Edited January 8 by swede700 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Relax Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 46 minutes ago, Ozzy said: Sunglasses on the sidelines indoors for one, seems pretty disengaged especially while he was hurt. Is not a very vocal leader on the sidelines either and outside of his position group not sure how much he really impacts in terms of teaching younger players. Good example and hard worker sure but at times his behavior is a bit aloof and seems more concerned about his own success rather than the teams. And imagine if he maybe does not get paid as much or has a contract issue moving forward. Having him is great but again do they win because of him and the answer so far in his very productive career is no. So is he that important? Is he a diva? Well no not yet but some of his behavior again is a bit aloof and the sunglasses are an odd choice.... No way one would Justin Jefferson over say top flight QBs like Lamar Jackson or Josh Allen or the other top QBs because fact is they would win more with a QB like Lamar instead of a WR like Justin Jefferson and say Kirk Cousins but that is the ideal, more likely going to be Penix, Daniels, Ewers or Bo Nix at QB potentially. So what is going to win more? Yeah the great QB is not the great WR. All that from a pair of sunglasses. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted January 8 Author Share Posted January 8 17 minutes ago, swede700 said: Yep, diva-like... True, and wearing them indoors I always have found a bit odd. Justin Fields, yeah he is inside I assume there also. But yeah maybe that is Justin Jefferson's thing, wear sunglasses but it does kind of scream give me attention, look at me and pay attention to me does it not? Either way, call that being a diva or not, it is absolutely to get attention and draw attention to yourself. If that is his thing, great, either way it is not winning them football games at the moment. But if all one wants is to be entertained and you are entertained by a grown adult wearing a variety of sunglasses indoors well have a great time, maybe you can get a poster of each pair he wears and hang them in your home. Still comes down to is he worth $30+ million a year, and what is the goal, keep and retain Hall of Fame players or win a Super Bowl? Because Vikings had four Hall of Famers on one team and almost won it all, Vikings do not even come close to having four currently, maybe two but one is about to walk out the door because he is not getting paid enough....Danielle Hunter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted January 8 Author Share Posted January 8 8 minutes ago, Captain Relax said: All that from a pair of sunglasses. True, but it would be a lot easier to overlook if they actual won games and the team played like the rock star he wants to portray himself as. Seems kind of silly, portray yourself as this great player (which he is) but currently his team itself kind of sucks.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted January 8 Author Share Posted January 8 Odell Beckham Jr. (Eli Manning) Julio Jones (Matt Ryan) Antonio Brown (Big Ben) AJ Green (Andy Dalton) Demaryius Thomas (Peyton Manning) They are either at the time the fastest WRs to get to 5000 yards or fastest to get to 8000 etc the past few years.... And all of them played with a Hall of Fame QB outside of two, Matt Ryan is one of two exceptions but his best year was with Kyle Shanahan as OC and Matt Ryan was MVP that one year. Andy Dalton is the real example, and AJ Green was great in the NFL early in his career, they paid him and had Andy the QB most of that time and what did they do exactly? Granted Kirk Cousins is better than Andy Dalton but who knows if Kirk Cousins is going to be the QB. Still having AJ Green did not win them big games because they did not have a great QB or surrounding team overall. Just like Tyreek Hill had Patrick Mahomes and now Tua, Kupp had Stafford in his Super Bowl run, Adams had Rodgers and now what.... So the QB does matter and it matters a lot. That is why no team would rather have Justin Jefferson instead of one of the top QBs in the league. Will be really telling, especially if the Vikings move on from Kirk and get a QB in the draft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingsrule Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 1 hour ago, Ozzy said: True, but it would be a lot easier to overlook if they actual won games and the team played like the rock star he wants to portray himself as. Seems kind of silly, portray yourself as this great player (which he is) but currently his team itself kind of sucks.... Why beat yourself up over it? Seems foolish to try and be something you’re not. What should he do sulk and have no energy. Maybe let him be 25 years old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vike daddy Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 my advice is to, yes, overlook the sunglasses. sunglasses do not a diva make. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted January 9 Author Share Posted January 9 1 hour ago, vike daddy said: my advice is to, yes, overlook the sunglasses. sunglasses do not a diva make. Possibly that is true. Still as a Viking fan, are you ok with being mediocre the next five years or do you want the team to actually win when it matters and have a complete roster? Honestly I could care less if Justin Jefferson is a Viking or not, fact is I am getting a little sick of having a beyond mediocre NFL football team. So long term does Justin Jefferson make you win games and I go back to what I said earlier, 30-30 record says no and he is just as likely to decrease in his effectiveness/dominance similar to Odell Beckum Jr than he is to improve as a player and be the cause of winning big games. $231 million dollars later, (not all from Minnesota but majority is) paid to Kirk Cousins, 6th highest paid NFL player all time. So same thing similar to Jefferson, is that worth paying him all that to be 50-37-1 and have a 1-4 playoff record? Absolutely not. At least Justin Jefferson is elite at his position, not sure Kirk Cousins is, he is not even top 5 at his position, but neither one have actually accomplished much in the NFL in terms of winning games when it mattered. All the other guys in the top 5 on that list of top paid in NFL history, all have won a Super Bowl outside of one and that one a least did get to the Super Bowl. Kirk Cousins has done neither one. And again they are all QBs, so does it make sense to give QB money to a WR? I am not so sure..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wcblack34 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 Chiefs are finding out that life without Tyreek isn’t all that great. Some people love trading gold bars for lottery tickets though. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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