Teen Girl Squad Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 3 minutes ago, Soko said: Coolio, I never said Hill wasn’t that either. I said Miami schemes him open a ton, sends him in motion, gives him routes out of the backfield, give him the jet sweeps, etc. Why? Because that’s an insanely effective way to use him, and it makes the offense harder to defend. Is he capable of lining up at X all day and winning straight up? Sure. But that’s not what Miami typically does with him. So yeah, there’s a difference in quality (obviously) between Hill and Worthy, but saying he’s going to get schemed touches is a pretty lackluster criticism. Oh I agree that its overly binary to say Worthy can't do any WRs things on his own. Reid and co I'm sure have plenty of ways to implement him creatively. My issue is more a broad one. WRs of Worthy's profile have a really, really poor hit rate in the league. Like how every slow WR who can separate is Anquon Boldin, every small fast guy is DeSean Jackson. When the comps haven't been relevant in the league for a decade, that scares me. Teams have chased the idea of the uber fast guy 'taking the top off' for a long time but it rarely works out that way in practice. They even signed the closest modern success in Hollywood Brown already (albeit hes a one and done). Its just not the dice roll I would have made, let alone with a trade up (even if 'cheap'). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suffering_Bills Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 Worst:Penix. Best: Murphy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packerraymond Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 7 minutes ago, Soko said: Yes, which is why I said clearly there’s a skill discrepancy between Hill and Worthy (which again, is obvious lol). But you can see how lethal Hill is in an offense that is thriving off of his schemed touches/big play threat (along with other elements, to their credit), so saying that Worthy is going to need to be schemed in a similar fashion caps you out at, what, exactly? Also think you’re really overstating how badly Worthy’s going to be in terms of actual WR skills, it’s not like he’s Patterson. It can cap you out at just useless NFL player. How useful is Hardman? Dri Archer? guys had speed to burn too. I think Worthy is better than them, but people are rushing in fantasy dynasty leagues to go get Worthy, they'll be sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SodeeWater_Cheezburger Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 Everybody is dumping on the Falcons for the Penix selection, but I don't think it was all that bad. While it was certainly a surprising pick at the moment, it does make sense. Why not take one of the better quarterbacks in this draft, let him sit for a couple of years behind Kirk, and then he will come out of the box ready to play like a great pro? This strategy worked for the Packers with Aaron Rodgers. It also worked great for the Chiefs with Patrick Mahomes. IMO, more teams need to use this strategy. Two years from now, everybody who is taking shots at the Falcons brass for this move may be calling them geniuses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 19 minutes ago, Teen Girl Squad said: Oh I agree that it’s overly binary to say Worthy can't do any WRs things on his own. Reid and co I'm sure have plenty of ways to implement him creatively. My issue is more a broad one. WRs of Worthy's profile have a really, really poor hit rate in the league. Like how every slow WR who can separate is Anquon Boldin, every small fast guy is DeSean Jackson. When the comps haven't been relevant in the league for a decade, that scares me. Teams have chased the idea of the uber fast guy 'taking the top off' for a long time but it rarely works out that way in practice. They even signed the closest modern success in Hollywood Brown already (albeit hes a one and done). It’s just not the dice roll I would have made, let alone with a trade up (even if 'cheap'). My issue with historical context when it comes to prospects (which, tbf, isn’t totally irrelevant) is how often it’s negatively thrown around nowadays, kind of in the same ilk with analytics. If you look at any player at such and such position, at such and such height/weight, with such and such 40 time, you’ll find more busts than hits. That doesn’t mean you ignore context completely, just saying I think it gets overstated. I think you’ve got to look at these guys as individuals and then use context to maybe weigh XYZ for/against them. A lot of folks are quick to profile these guys, which I think shorts them, to a degree. Again, I’m not saying toss it all out the window, but let’s not toss the player either. Like, Ross, Ruggs, Worthy, Austin, Cooks, etc. and lump them all in because they’re smaller speedsters, but they’re all pretty different prospects. Different skill sets, different usages. Why didn’t D-Jax flame out the way John Ross did? Why did Brandin Cooks work but not Tavon Austin? How is it possible 165lb Tank Dell can be running free downfield, but 165lb Worthy will be incapable of getting touches off the LOS without schemed touches? Some guys have or develop counters to their limitations that others don’t. If Worthy needs schemed touches but has a Tank Dell+ season (in a better offense with a better QB), then who’s complaining? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teen Girl Squad Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 Just now, Soko said: My issue with historical context when it comes to prospects (which, tbf, isn’t totally irrelevant) is how often it’s negatively thrown around nowadays, kind of in the same ilk with analytics. If you look at any player at such and such position, at such and such height/weight, with such and such 40 time, you’ll find more busts than hits. That doesn’t mean you ignore context completely, just saying I think it gets overstated. I think you’ve got to look at these guys as individuals and then use context to maybe weigh XYZ for/against them. A lot of folks are quick to profile these guys, which I think shorts them, to a degree. Again, I’m not saying toss it all out the window, but let’s not toss the player either. Like, Ross, Ruggs, Worthy, Austin, Cooks, etc. and lump them all in because they’re smaller speedsters, but they’re all pretty different prospects. Different skill sets, different usages. Why didn’t D-Jax flame out the way John Ross did? Why did Brandin Cooks work but not Tavon Austin? How is it possible 165lb Tank Dell can be running free downfield, but 165lb Worthy will be incapable of getting touches off the LOS without schemed touches? Some guys have or develop counters to their limitations that others don’t. If Worthy needs schemed touches but has a Tank Dell+ season (in a better offense with a better QB), then who’s complaining? Dell also didn't make it through his rookie year unscathed. Cooks is a good one though. We're just going to have to agree to disagree. There are definitely worlds where Worthy is amazing and well worth the pick. In my estimation, the odds are just too low for me to rate it highly. As always, I want everyone to BOOM because it makes football more fun, so I'll be glad to be wrong should it come to pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFlaccoSeagulls Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 (edited) 17 minutes ago, SodeeWater_Cheezburger said: Everybody is dumping on the Falcons for the Penix selection, but I don't think it was all that bad. While it was certainly a surprising pick at the moment, it does make sense. Why not take one of the better quarterbacks in this draft, let him sit for a couple of years behind Kirk, and then he will come out of the box ready to play like a great pro? This strategy worked for the Packers with Aaron Rodgers. It also worked great for the Chiefs with Patrick Mahomes. IMO, more teams need to use this strategy. Two years from now, everybody who is taking shots at the Falcons brass for this move may be calling them geniuses. Jordan Love was 21 when he was drafted, and Aaron Rodgers was an established legend on the team. Also keep in mind that the Jordan Love pick was also heavily scrutinized at the time. Jordan Love was not regarded as pro ready, he was regarded as developmental. Michael Penix is viewed as Pro-Ready and is already 24 years old in a couple of weeks. Sitting Penix for 2-3 years means he's not starting until 27 and wasting much of the rookie contract that generally teams need to maximize to compete. It also means that you're not investing HIGH first-round draft capital to help your team win now with the QB you just invested $100M into... So no, it doesn't make sense and it's not comparable whatsoever to the Love/Rodgers or Jackson/Flacco situation. EDIT: Also, Jordan Love was drafted 1/26 and Mahomes was 1/10 BUT only sat for a year behind Alex Smith (not viewed as any sort of long-term QB and the Chiefs didn't invest $100M into him). Edited April 26 by AFlaccoSeagulls 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 29 minutes ago, Packerraymond said: It can cap you out at just useless NFL player. How useful is Hardman? Dri Archer? guys had speed to burn too. I think Worthy is better than them, but people are rushing in fantasy dynasty leagues to go get Worthy, they'll be sorry. That’s not a cap, that’s a floor. I’m simply saying that a WR that’s getting tons of schemes touches doesn’t have to be a bad thing. There’ll always be more misses than hits at any physical profile, but I’m not seeing how Worthy’s game is relatable to a Hardman or an Archer, aside from their physicals. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiefs_5627 Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Packerraymond said: It can cap you out at just useless NFL player. How useful is Hardman? Dri Archer? guys had speed to burn too. I think Worthy is better than them, but people are rushing in fantasy dynasty leagues to go get Worthy, they'll be sorry. I think you started off the rails with the Hardman comparison. Remains to be seen what kind of pro Worthy is going to be but I know for a fact the guy will be better than Hardman lol. MH can't track, can't run routes, can't ad-libs and has dang near zero situational awareness plus he's always dinged up. He's fast and can randomly do some good things if the ball hits him directly like a bullet but that's it. You can watch a quick highlight video of Worthy on YouTube and see the guy track the ball, catch the ball, has sudden starts and stops and appears to be able to run routes well. He's skinny as can be but he's also 20 y/o for another day or so and can probably toss on 10 lbs or so and keep speed. He's the same size of Devonta Smith and he's doing ok. Idk I'm rambling now but yeah the Hardman comparison wasn't good. Edited April 26 by Chiefs_5627 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falconof Shadows Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 Falcons absolutely worse. Definitely trying to make an argument for worse run team in. The league. Such a bad regime in charge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mizter_Clean10 Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 2 hours ago, Packerraymond said: He's not an alpha, he's too frail to leave on the LOS, you're going to have to move him around a scheme targets for him, that's just not a round 1 WR to me. Pearsall will have a better career. His playing weight and height at Texas are nearly identical to Devonta Smith and by no means am I saying he’s Smith but if you only issue with him is size then I’m not sure what Smith and Addison (also similar playing size) can make it but Worthy can’tz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vike daddy Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 ESPN’s article with three contributors—draft experts Fields Yates, Matt Miller, and Jordan Reid—determined the best and worst teams in various categories. While they liked Minnesota’s move for McCarthy, Miller and Reid named the trade for Turner the best one in the first round: Matt Miller: "The Vikings trading up to No. 17 from No. 23 for Alabama edge rusher Dallas Turner. The Vikings made two trades up the board in the first round, but I like the second move the most. Turner was my No. 7 overall player in the class, and Minnesota landed him at No. 17 before the run on defensive ends happened. It was a timely and savvy trade up to get ahead of the Rams (No. 19), plus a real steal on value." Jordan Reid: "Agreed on the Vikings moving up to No. 17 for Turner. GM Kwesi Adofo-Mensah was aggressive in adding two players at spots of need Thursday. The Vikings desperately needed to come out of this draft with a QB of the future, and they did that with McCarthy. But the more surprising move came when the team traded up to get Turner, landing my top-ranked defensive player in the class. Minnesota arguably had the best first round of any team." https://vikingsterritory.com/2024/news/analysis/one-vikings-move-in-particular-draws-the-most-praise?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr A W Niloc Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 2 hours ago, SodeeWater_Cheezburger said: Everybody is dumping on the Falcons for the Penix selection, but I don't think it was all that bad. While it was certainly a surprising pick at the moment, it does make sense. Why not take one of the better quarterbacks in this draft, let him sit for a couple of years behind Kirk, and then he will come out of the box ready to play like a great pro? Because luxury picks are ones you make after you have joined the elite teams. Atlanta is at least three holes away from having 22 starters. If there is any expectation of Kirk Cousins playing 15+ games this year this is an inexplicable blunder, especially given the smaller market for QBs we imagine in 2025. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mizter_Clean10 Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 2 hours ago, PossibleCabbage said: Yeah, I keep coming back to how the Chiefs plan to play outdoors in Kansas City in January in some important games. We saw in the game against the Dolphins how "grass doesn't stay alive in Missouri in January" negates speedy WRs. Was this pick solely for when they go play the Super Bowl on carpet? First that game was historically cold (fans who attended had amputations due to the cold after), second Tyreek played January games in KC previously and was fine. So if the cold and grass are your only concerns then there is plenty of data to support that it won’t be an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epyon Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 (edited) Worst : Washington, Atlanta, Minnesota, Denver... All of whom took bad qbs (or in Atlanta's case already had 160 million reasons not to take one) Laitu: was off my board medically Would a terrible pick on nearly every other team: Worthy to KC... He's not a deep threat as a prospect, but Reid and Mahomes will absolutely make him a star. Pearsall. Great situation for the kid. My biggest negative takeaway isn't Atlanta though.... What in the actual hell is the plan in Denver with Zach Wilson and Bo Nix? Edited April 26 by Epyon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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