Random Packer News & Notes

[Packerraymond]

Juju and MVS played every game. The only difference between them and our receivers is they stayed healthy. They both had less than 50 yards in over half of KC's games. They were volume targets, not game changers. JJSS, MVS, Moore vs Lazard, Watson, Doubs is a push.

[Old Guy]

26 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

Juju and MVS played every game. The only difference between them and our receivers is they stayed healthy. They both had less than 50 yards in over half of KC's games. They were volume targets, not game changers. JJSS, MVS, Moore vs Lazard, Watson, Doubs is a push.

This year it was a push. If we had Lazard back it would be in GB's favor next year. If you want to pick two of those vs. Watson and Doubs next year, I'm taking our guys every single time. 

[Laces Out]

^^^ I'd like to see their first down stats situationally presented. A couple hard fought 3-5 yard catches on 3rd down doesn't look like much in a volume scenario, but games can tilt on a handful of 3rd down conversions, versus a drop or wrong route by a comparable player who then compiles some garbage time bulk stats.

JJSS was great in the middle of the field at times for them.

[hitnhope]

5 hours ago, Old Guy said:

Three straight 13-win seasons in a row does not happen if you don't acquire good, young talent to go with some talented vets. That is the only data I need. 

3 straight 13 win seasons achieved mainly through talent acquired by the players from the previous administration and a few free agents acquired through salary cap dollars left by the previous administration being fiscally sound.

Now the players who drove that level of success are getting old and we are in salary cap hell.   Our previous GM's kept the success train going for 30 years.  Gute will take us off that track in only a few seasons, yet many praise his work.   It makes little sense.

[Old Guy]

15 minutes ago, hitnhope said:

3 straight 13 win seasons achieved mainly through talent acquired by the players from the previous administration and a few free agents acquired through salary cap dollars left by the previous administration being fiscally sound.

Now the players who drove that level of success are getting old and we are in salary cap hell.   Our previous GM's kept the success train going for 30 years.  Gute will take us off that track in only a few seasons, yet many praise his work.   It makes little sense.

It makes a ton of sense when you have an aging quarterback, trying to get back to the Super Bowl. His talent acquisitions were the reason we were able to win 13 games three seasons in a row. 

[Green19]

6 hours ago, vegas492 said:

@PackFan13 is a big boy and can defend himself, so I'm not here to do that at all.

However....Prior to this year, the gap between Mahomes and Rodgers was not as great.  Rodgers was the reigning 2X MVP after all.  So while I believe Mahomes to be the better QB, it was not by much at all.

When you talk about hand signals?  Well, I saw enough Chiefs games this year to know that Moore wasn't on the field all that much and did make plenty of mistakes.  (Not sure if via hand signals, though, lol)  What I didn't see was Mahomes looking frustrated with him.  Mistakes to Mahomes are like water on a ducks back, they just roll off.

I think that point of the Cobb tweet was this...look at what the Chiefs did to replace Hill.  They did a lot, worked every angle and they made deals.

I have little doubt that Gute worked the phones hard to find us a WR, and maybe he did offer a first for Moore.  But KC actually got deals done, in free agency and via trade.

And I find it ironic that someone would illustrate Cobb liking a tweet.  Because Cobb was one of the guys we invested in to replace Adams.  And I feel like his contract was very similar to Ju-Ju.  And Ju-Ju by far outproduced Cobb.

KC got two vets in MVS and Ju-Ju.  Got Toney via trade.  Drafted Moore.  (while having Kelce)

GB got 2 vets in Watkins and Cobb.  Drafted Watson, Doubs and Toure.  (while bringing Tonyan back in FA)

In other words...Cobb should look in a mirror and understand that what GB did wasn't all that different.  The issue is that the vets brought in didn't work out like the Chiefs vets.

I disagree with the Mahomes and Rodgers comparison. They are in two very different points of their careers and Mahomes is easily head and shoulders better than Rodgers and has been the last few years.

And that is all encompassing for me personally. I get the back to back mvps and I love that the team I cheer for gets those awards etc etc. But we all know mvp or any award is political. Heck last year by a lot of metrics Kupp should of won. But there is bias and oh that’s why we have offensive player of the year, blah blah blah.

Rodgers can’t carry a team any more. He can have a great series, a great game, a great season. He isn’t “that DUDE”. Mahomes is. 

pair with that Mahomes has a generational talent at TE… we can’t compare KC and GB situation. Chiefs didn’t trade kelece. GB did in Adams. Hill was a cherry on top… not the core structure of that offense. And let’s say I buy chiefs did more to address the WR position, which I don’t believe personally… GB invested in defense. Because they no longer believe Rodgers can just out score others, they need the defense.

Mahomes defense can give up 30+ and he still wins… Rodgers can’t. For whatever reason, I’m sure everyone has a theory. But at this point Mahomes is just different than Rodgers. Forget kelece and others. The QBs aren’t in the same category. So we as fans can’t look over there and say oh had Gute gotten Ju Ju or paid MVS… the bones of this whole thing is different, we are talking about finishes in a home when the foundations are wildly different.

[Spartacus]

9 minutes ago, hitnhope said:

3 straight 13 win seasons achieved mainly through talent acquired by the players from the previous administration and a few free agents acquired through salary cap dollars left by the previous administration being fiscally sound.

Now the players who drove that level of success are getting old and we are in salary cap hell.   Our previous GM's kept the success train going for 30 years.  Gute will take us off that track in only a few seasons, yet many praise his work.   It makes little sense.

One administration had two straight HOF QBs in their prime. The other administration is dealing with an old Aaron Rodgers with off the field baggage. Gutes draft haven't even been bad.. I swear people WAY overrate drafts. 

2018:

1 Blue Chip - Alexander 1 Solid Starter in MVS, 1 Solid Depth in EQB

2019: 

2 Blue Chips - Gary & Jenkins, 1 starter in Savage, 1 Depth in Ty Summers

2020: 

2 Solid Starters in Dillon & JRJ, 2 Depth in Love & Deguara

2021: 

Unsure on how to rank these yet but Stokes, Myers, Slaton, McDuffie have all had their moments. 

2022: 

Walker, Wyatt, Watson, Doubs, Enagbare, Tom have all shown some upside although its too early to tell. Ford, Walker, & Toure is far too early but look like decent depth in year 1. 

 

 

 

 

[hitnhope]

1 minute ago, Old Guy said:

It makes a ton of sense when you have an aging quarterback, trying to get back to the Super Bowl. His talent acquisitions were the reason we were able to win 13 games three seasons in a row. 

Gute left huge gaps on the team that kept us from ever even getting to the big game.   Our ST were criminally bad.   Our plan his year on the OL and WR were terrible.  

We were never a threat to win it all without using a lens of complete optimism and wishful thinking.

If the goal is winning seasons Gute performance was fine.  If the goal is winning the SB, not so much.   The country club at 1265 where personality and relationships are more important than winning continues on.

[{Family Ghost}]

3 minutes ago, hitnhope said:

Gute left huge gaps on the team that kept us from ever even getting to the big game.   Our ST were criminally bad.   Our plan his year on the OL and WR were terrible.  

We were never a threat to win it all without using a lens of complete optimism and wishful thinking.

If the goal is winning seasons Gute performance was fine.  If the goal is winning the SB, not so much.   The country club at 1265 where personality and relationships are more important than winning continues on.

There has been a lot of mistakes .. not sure it's more or less than other franchises out there, but I am really beginning to question the direction of the franchise.  I think they have allowed themselves to become paralyzed as an organization.  I want to be positive, but deep down I don't have the faith in the Packers front office or coaching staff to bring home the Lombardi.

[hitnhope]

10 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

One administration had two straight HOF QBs in their prime. The other administration is dealing with an old Aaron Rodgers with off the field baggage. Gutes draft haven't even been bad.. I swear people WAY overrate drafts. 

2018:

1 Blue Chip - Alexander 1 Solid Starter in MVS, 1 Solid Depth in EQB

2019: 

2 Blue Chips - Gary & Jenkins, 1 starter in Savage, 1 Depth in Ty Summers

2020: 

2 Solid Starters in Dillon & JRJ, 2 Depth in Love & Deguara

2021: 

Unsure on how to rank these yet but Stokes, Myers, Slaton, McDuffie have all had their moments. 

2022: 

Walker, Wyatt, Watson, Doubs, Enagbare, Tom have all shown some upside although its too early to tell. Ford, Walker, & Toure is far too early but look like decent depth in year 1. 

 

 

 

 

The fact you are using Savage, Summers, Dillon,  Love, Degaura to make your argument speaks volumes.

Bad starters aren't a feather in a GM's cap.  Bad depth isn't a feather in the GM's cap.  Unused players 3 years into their rookie deals are not a feather in the GM's cap.

He brought in Gary who contributed little his first 2 years, but has become a stud and is  a win.  Tempered by low input early.   

Alexander was a great pick.  Jenkins was a great pick.  JRJ was a good pick. 

Dillon was not a great pick because teams are getting similar output on backup RB's using far less capitol than a 2nd round pick.   Decent player but below average draft investment.

Savage was a bad pick.  Amari Rodgers was a bad pick.  Love has been a bad pick(not his fault he was drafted 2 years too early by Gute).

Players like Deguara, Newman,  and Myers are nothing picks.  They are replacement level players that can be replaced with equal production off the scrap heap.

2022 might be his first overall solid draft.  We will see how it plays out.

Edited February 16, 2023 by hitnhope

[Mr Bad Example]

7 hours ago, hitnhope said:

We can agree to disagree.   I think there were HUGE flaws in the data used to "prove" he is an average drafter.  It was more a case of garbage in = garbage out.

What were the flaws?

 

 

[squire12]

8 minutes ago, Mr Bad Example said:

What were the flaws?

 

 

Hmmmm.....it didn't align with his views on the topicc??

[Green19]

2 hours ago, {Family Ghost} said:

There has been a lot of mistakes .. not sure it's more or less than other franchises out there, but I am really beginning to question the direction of the franchise.  I think they have allowed themselves to become paralyzed as an organization.  I want to be positive, but deep down I don't have the faith in the Packers front office or coaching staff to bring home the Lombardi.

Interesting… what about the direction are you questioning? Is it wrapped up in Rodgers and his status? Is it a keeping Joe Barry thing? Is it a draft thing?

Because I think everything they are doing is all reasonable. It’s just not paying off in postseason success. I don’t think their direction is wrong or even bad. It’s just a lot of things has to go right. Like look at last year, arguably the defense was hitting at the right time… but the offense wasn’t and it took one bone headed play on special teams. In other years the offense was hitting at the right time and the defense pooped the bed. But that feels like ever team. Heck Chiefs won the SB giving up 30+ to the eagles.

I think the only truly bad choice currently is holding on to Barry. Feels like this time next year GB will be looking for a new DC. 

[{Family Ghost}]

52 minutes ago, Green19 said:

Interesting… what about the direction are you questioning? Is it wrapped up in Rodgers and his status? Is it a keeping Joe Barry thing? Is it a draft thing?

Because I think everything they are doing is all reasonable. It’s just not paying off in postseason success. I don’t think their direction is wrong or even bad. It’s just a lot of things has to go right. Like look at last year, arguably the defense was hitting at the right time… but the offense wasn’t and it took one bone headed play on special teams. In other years the offense was hitting at the right time and the defense pooped the bed. But that feels like ever team. Heck Chiefs won the SB giving up 30+ to the eagles.

I think the only truly bad choice currently is holding on to Barry. Feels like this time next year GB will be looking for a new DC. 

They are late on getting rid of Rodgers .. could have got the motherlode for him last year.  Trading Adams made no sense if Aaron was coming back .. people blame the cap, but there was a lot of chatter that Adams would be signed several months before franchise tag day.  That trade was not expected.  They put him off so long that he asked out of GB.  Drafting Love was a mistake at the time .. took him two years too early.  Resigning Rodgers to that new deal was a huge mistake.  Keeping Barry is a mistake.  The Pillars of power setup in GB is a mistake.  Missing the playoffs and posting a losing record should have them all on the hot seat, but it seems they are getting a free pass.  Giving too much power to Aaron was a mistake .. he turned the offense into a stale mess last year, and LaFleur couldn't reign him in.  Not a one of them has a hot seat, but there has been a laundry list of missteps.  We're settling for bad apparently.

[Green19]

18 minutes ago, {Family Ghost} said:

They are late on getting rid of Rodgers .. could have got the motherlode for him last year.  Trading Adams made no sense if Aaron was coming back .. people blame the cap, but there was a lot of chatter that Adams would be signed several months before franchise tag day.  That trade was not expected.  They put him off so long that he asked out of GB.  Drafting Love was a mistake at the time .. took him two years too early.  Resigning Rodgers to that new deal was a huge mistake.  Keeping Barry is a mistake.  The Pillars of power setup in GB is a mistake.  Missing the playoffs and posting a losing record should have them all on the hot seat, but it seems they are getting a free pass.  Giving too much power to Aaron was a mistake .. he turned the offense into a stale mess last year, and LaFleur couldn't reign him in.  Not a one of them has a hot seat, but there has been a laundry list of missteps.  We're settling for bad apparently.

So like everything with Rodgers… because a lot of this is all tied to Rodgers and handling him/the transition from him.

The only non Rodgers thing is Barry… even the pillars occurred because of Rodgers. Even the Adams thing… they push that until they had a direction with Rodgers and by than it burned that bridge.

So to just simplify, the front office’s choices all around Rodgers.