Vikings Quarterback Situation

[vikingsrule]

7 hours ago, Shanedorf said:

Per OTC, there are two main strategies to build a Champion in today's NFL - one with a Top QB and one without. The vikes chose the plan without a Top QB and have gone about building a top defense and running game to be supported by an inexpensive QB. Teddy was that cheap QB. IF they now opt to go after Cousins, they'll be switching team-building strategies mid-stream. And all of the resources they put into building that defense will be diminished by the cash they pay Cousins. They won't be able to keep all of the defensive pieces. The NFL is a tough business

We saw this happen in Seattle where they built a top defense and went to 2 SBs with cheap-Wilson and a defensive-minded HC. Once Wilson got paid, the Seahawks didn't have the cap or the draft resources to replenish their defense and it is in decline due to age, injury and FA defections. That will likely be the vikes fate too IF they choose to pay a Top QB big money at this juncture.

They probably need to keep going with the cheap QB strategy and keep pouring resources into the defense and running game. Truly between a rock and a hard place because they know their defense isn't yet good enough to win in January - they gave up 55 points in 6 quarters of playoff foootball. What will they do ? Continue to bolster the defense or pay handsomely to bolster the QB position ? Tough decisions ahead.

You're ignoring the fact that Bradford had a cap hit of $18 million in 2017. That impacted how the Vikes could build their roster. The Vikes spent $20m at QB in 2017, I'd guess that's probably close to average. 

[Soko]

11 hours ago, Shanedorf said:

We saw this happen in Seattle where they built a top defense and went to 2 SBs with cheap-Wilson and a defensive-minded HC. Once Wilson got paid, the Seahawks didn't have the cap or the draft resources to replenish their defense and it is in decline due to age, injury and FA defections. That will likely be the vikes fate too IF they choose to pay a Top QB big money at this juncture.

Defections? They kept Richard Sherman, Kam Chancellor, Earl Thomas, Bobby Wagner, Michael Bennett, KJ Wright and Cliff Avril.

Who did you expect them to keep? Byron Maxwell, Brandon Browner, and Malcolm Smith? 

The Seahawks got to their prominence through amazing/incredibly lucky draft picks and developing those players. What did them - or rather is the main cause for their current decline - wasn’t Wilson’s contract. It’s their fallen-back-to-Earth draft classes. They stopped hitting on later round guys and even higher round prospects. Granted, this offseason they have tough decisions to make cap wise. 

It’s not like there’s only one or two ways of doing things. Denver built an elite defensive unit while paying Peyton Manning near-top value as a QB.

Does having an expensive QB make building an overall tougher? Sure. Does it prevent you from doing so? Absolutely not. Smart drafting and bargain/value FAs are more than enough. 

[ILoveTheVikings]

Cousins to Vikings rumors heating up.

[Iamcanadian]

12 hours ago, Shanedorf said:

Per OTC, there are two main strategies to build a Champion in today's NFL - one with a Top QB and one without. The vikes chose the plan without a Top QB and have gone about building a top defense and running game to be supported by an inexpensive QB. Teddy was that cheap QB. IF they now opt to go after Cousins, they'll be switching team-building strategies mid-stream. And all of the resources they put into building that defense will be diminished by the cash they pay Cousins. They won't be able to keep all of the defensive pieces. The NFL is a tough business

We saw this happen in Seattle where they built a top defense and went to 2 SBs with cheap-Wilson and a defensive-minded HC. Once Wilson got paid, the Seahawks didn't have the cap or the draft resources to replenish their defense and it is in decline due to age, injury and FA defections. That will likely be the vikes fate too IF they choose to pay a Top QB big money at this juncture.

They probably need to keep going with the cheap QB strategy and keep pouring resources into the defense and running game. Truly between a rock and a hard place because they know their defense isn't yet good enough to win in January - they gave up 55 points in 6 quarters of playoff foootball. What will they do ? Continue to bolster the defense or pay handsomely to bolster the QB position ? Tough decisions ahead.

No matter who is their QB, the cheap days are over and they are looking at somewhere around 18 million a year. FA QB's do not come cheap!!!

I think they will stay with Keenum, Teddy is still a huge question mark as to his health and Bradford is probably done. Zimmer stuck with Keenum when he could have switched to Teddy and that speaks volumes to me.

There is no path to the SB that does not include a franchise QB and no matter how good Minny's defense is, they still need to score points.Their offense uses a game manager at QB and as long as they can run the ball, they will compete, but with Rodgers returning, their prospects for making the playoffs is all up in the air.

I do not think a small market team like Minny has any shot at paying Cousins, although he would definitely like to play indoors, he is going to a rich big market team, where he can make a lot of extra money through advertising and Minny does not offer that!!!

[Iamcanadian]

1 hour ago, Yin-Yang said:

Defections? They kept Richard Sherman, Kam Chancellor, Earl Thomas, Bobby Wagner, Michael Bennett, KJ Wright and Cliff Avril.

Who did you expect them to keep? Byron Maxwell, Brandon Browner, and Malcolm Smith? 

The Seahawks got to their prominence through amazing/incredibly lucky draft picks and developing those players. What did them - or rather is the main cause for their current decline - wasn’t Wilson’s contract. It’s their fallen-back-to-Earth draft classes. They stopped hitting on later round guys and even higher round prospects. Granted, this offseason they have tough decisions to make cap wise. 

It’s not like there’s only one or two ways of doing things. Denver built an elite defensive unit while paying Peyton Manning near-top value as a QB.

Does having an expensive QB make building an overall tougher? Sure. Does it prevent you from doing so? Absolutely not. Smart drafting and bargain/value FAs are more than enough. 

I have to disagree, Wilson's jump in salary to around what a franchise QB is worth, definitely affected their ability to compete. 

All teams with a rookie QB have a window of 4 years to take advantage of their QB being grossly underpaid.

Denver is a poor example to use, they lucked out in drafting a future HoFer in Von Miller, those do not come along too often and got one great season from DeMarcus Ware and have not returned to the SB!!!

[Soko]

21 minutes ago, Iamcanadian said:

I have to disagree, Wilson's jump in salary to around what a franchise QB is worth, definitely affected their ability to compete. 

How, specifically? I think we can all agree they didn't mess up by letting the 3 aforementioned players walk (Maxwell, Browner, Smith). 

Who else did they lose as a Wilson cap casualty? Who else were they linked to that they couldn't afford? 

21 minutes ago, Iamcanadian said:

Denver is a poor example to use, they lucked out in drafting a future HoFer in Von Miller, those do not come along too often and got one great season from DeMarcus Ware and have not returned to the SB!!!

They also had homegrown talent in Chris Harris Jr, Bradley Roby, Malik Jackson, Derek Wolfe, Ryan Clady, Julius Thomas, Danny Trevathan, Demaryius Thomas, CJ Anderson, and Brandon Marshall. With free agents Aqib Talib, Demarcus Ware, Emmanuel Sanders, and TJ Ward - all at less than what they were actually worth. 

They're a fine example of a good GM taking advantage of a window. Did Elway have to work around paying Manning top QB money? Yup. Did he sign smart FAs and draft well? Yup. 

[ILoveTheVikings]

1 hour ago, Iamcanadian said:

No matter who is their QB, the cheap days are over and they are looking at somewhere around 18 million a year. FA QB's do not come cheap!!!

I think they will stay with Keenum, Teddy is still a huge question mark as to his health and Bradford is probably done. Zimmer stuck with Keenum when he could have switched to Teddy and that speaks volumes to me.

There is no path to the SB that does not include a franchise QB and no matter how good Minny's defense is, they still need to score points.Their offense uses a game manager at QB and as long as they can run the ball, they will compete, but with Rodgers returning, their prospects for making the playoffs is all up in the air.

I do not think a small market team like Minny has any shot at paying Cousins, although he would definitely like to play indoors, he is going to a rich big market team, where he can make a lot of extra money through advertising and Minny does not offer that!!!

So then only the Jets have a shot?

 

[Tugboat]

It's such a tricky situation.  There's a ton of flexibility in it, to choose where they want to go...but it's also totally precarious and would be very easy to botch things catastrophically.

Assuming they can get Bridgewater under contract for a reasonable rate/term...that'd be my go to move.  I'm not sure how much of a believer i am in Teddy's ability to be "the guy" anymore...it's impossible for me to say, without knowing how he's going to come back from that injury.  But i'd feel safe enough that he should be able to come in and manage a game, letting his weapons and that defense win games.

Then find a way to draft a guy with big upside.  Lamar Jackson would be a really good fit there, in that his running ability should allow him to step in earlier and play a "simplified" game against stacked boxes taking guys out of coverage.  And he's the most likely to fall within striking range for the Vikings without giving up a fortune to move up in the draft.  Or if a guy like Josh Allen somehow falls to their range...i'd take a big swing on him, and hope that he can sit long enough before things get restless with Teddy starting.

 

I'd be so wary of giving Keenum substantial money.  He's just not good enough, and i think he pretty definitively proved that in the playoffs.  It was a great flash in the pan, but you can't pay premium money for that kind of unreliability.

I also understand the idea of going after Cousins, but i think others like @Shanedorf nailed it with respect to "changing horses mid stream" when it comes to team-building strategy.  The Vikings are a team built to contend with a "good enough" quarterback, on an affordable deal.  Bringing in a guy like Cousins on a megadeal is the sort of thing that sooner rather than later, will require major retooling of their team structure to build around that QB and his deal.  And i'm honestly not convinced Cousins is actually a good enough QB to win big with as your franchise cornerstone at elite money in the first place.

[JaguarCrazy2832]

I guess it depends on the $. Bridgewater likely wont command a ton of money. If you could re-sign him and Keenum that would be ideal but if you put say 25m into QB it could cost them someone this year that could help them win a SB

[frenchie]

On ‎2‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 2:19 AM, N4L said:

Yes, Keenum had the best season of his career and played like a top '10-12' last season, but he is unlikely to ever replicate it.  My point is that paying him like he is going to sustain the success (or even build on it) would be a huge mistake by the Vikings. He simply isn't worth 15-18+ million dollars a year. 

How do you know this?  He's never had the luxury of a competent supporting cast, until now.  This was by far the most talented team Keenum has ever been on, and he took it in stride; he played well, despite even Viking fans anxiously waiting for his inevitable failure. 

15-18 mill is average starter money... he's going to get at least that...

On ‎2‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 2:19 AM, N4L said:

The Vikings are in a rare position. They went to the NFCCG (in a year with no Aaron Rodgers mind you) on the backs of a strong defense and an overall deep roster. Their OC left and they don't have a QB on the roster next year. What they DO have is an incredible TE, two extremely talented WRs, and a very versatile young running back. They should feel really really good about the idea of getting similar production out of another QB, should they need to. "helped turn Thielen and Diggs into stars" more like the other way around! 

Yes, the Vikings are in rare position, so why pinch pennies?  The team is set at virtually every position except QB, and now you want to worry about saving money?

Just a couple years ago, with Bridgewater under center, Diggs was not a household name, and nobody knew who Thielen was... Keenum built an outstanding rapport with his offensive weapons in a very short time.

The funny thing is, you're so positive Keenum will not replicate his production, but in the same breath, seem pretty sure you can bring in almost anyone, and get 'similar production' 

On ‎2‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 2:19 AM, N4L said:

Teddy on the other hand, I suggested bringing back on a 1-2 year, incentive laden 'prove it' deal because he would be cheap and has some upside. It's not that I think he's better than keenum, it's that he would be infinitely cheaper and therefore carry 'less risk' so to speak. I'm talking 2 years 4-6 million with incentives that could pay up to 10 million a year for games started or yards or whatever. Basically I'm talking about bringing him into camp and letting him compete. 

Bridgewater, who I think is a low-end starter at best, would be a fool to sign a contract like that.  He'll get offers of at least 5-6 mil/yr to be a backup...

And what upside does Bridgewater have? ...Youth?  That's all I see..  I seriously don't know what some of you Viking fans see in this guy. 

On ‎2‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 2:19 AM, N4L said:

Gabbertcould be a solid game manager for a team like the Vikings. He isn't exactly a name that would inspire confidence from the fan base, but he does have some experience and I think he could essentially become an Alex Smith type QB in Alex's first year in KC or with SF in 2011 on a team like Minnesota. Teddy, gabbert and a rookie for a year wouldn't be the worst thing with the roster Minnesota has, but signing case keenum to a LTD could potentially be detrimental to their future.

So save a few bucks, and let Keenum walk, and proceed into 2018 with a pair of low-end starters who have never had any real success in the league...  sounds great.  Thanks for telling me 'how it is'

[Duff Man]

16 hours ago, frenchie said:

Bridgewater, who I think is a low-end starter at best, would be a fool to sign a contract like that.  He'll get offers of at least 5-6 mil/yr to be a backup...

And what upside does Bridgewater have? ...Youth?  That's all I see..  I seriously don't know what some of you Viking fans see in this guy. 

So save a few bucks, and let Keenum walk, and proceed into 2018 with a pair of low-end starters who have never had any real success in the league...  sounds great.  Thanks for telling me 'how it is'

1). You give Keenum the "never had a good supporting cast" argument but not Teddy? Teddy had to deal with one of the worst OL's ever in 2015.  With all those 7 step drops it was a nightmare scenario. Not to mention having to force-feed AP and getting into a ridiculous amount of 3rd and longs.  Teddy's cast was decent (outside of OL) but not as good as this year's cast. 

 

2). You don't know what we see in Teddy?

 

3). If Blair Walsh hits a 27 yarder Bridgewater has as many playoff wins as Keenum. Another really, really bad point by you. 

 

 

For the record I wouldn't "hate" them resigning Keenum, but Bridgewater definitely has some upside too. He was definitely improving and I stand firm in saying that 2016 would have been a big step forward for him. I wouldn't bat an eye is Keenum leaves and the vikings roll with Teddy.  

[frenchie]

3 hours ago, Duff Man said:

1). You give Keenum the "never had a good supporting cast" argument but not Teddy? Teddy had to deal with one of the worst OL's ever in 2015.  With all those 7 step drops it was a nightmare scenario. Not to mention having to force-feed AP and getting into a ridiculous amount of 3rd and longs.  Teddy's cast was decent (outside of OL) but not as good as this year's cast. 

in 2015, Diggs Thielen, and Rudolph, along with Mike Wallace were all on the team; problem was, they had nobody capable of getting them the ball.  Also that year, AP rushed for 1500 yards and 11 TDs.  I agree, the line wasn't great, but he had weapons, and to insinuate that he didn't, is a joke.

Meanwhile, 2015 was Bridgewater's banner season, where he started all 16 games, and only managed to throw 14 TDs...  I don't know about you, but IMO, that's unacceptable, and I know one thing, If Kirk Cousins puts up numbers like that, he gets laughed out of the league, regardless of the help; same goes for Dalton, Tannehil, and a few others everyone loves to hate...  Yet Bridgewater, for some reason, gets a pass that frankly, he hasn't earned.

 

3 hours ago, Duff Man said:

 

2). You don't know what we see in Teddy?

So you're hitching you're team's future on the back of some preseason game, before he broke his leg?  ... I really shouldn't be surprised; you have nothing else...

3 hours ago, Duff Man said:

3). If Blair Walsh hits a 27 yarder Bridgewater has as many playoff wins as Keenum. Another really, really bad point by you. 

Right, I forgot how Teddy balled out in that game..  What was it ...115 yards passing?   It completely slipped my mind how Bridgewater single-handedly carried them all year.

[Duff Man]

2 hours ago, frenchie said:

in 2015, Diggs Thielen, and Rudolph, along with Mike Wallace were all on the team; problem was, they had nobody capable of getting them the ball.  Also that year, AP rushed for 1500 yards and 11 TDs.  I agree, the line wasn't great, but he had weapons, and to insinuate that he didn't, is a joke.

Meanwhile, 2015 was Bridgewater's banner season, where he started all 16 games, and only managed to throw 14 TDs...  I don't know about you, but IMO, that's unacceptable, and I know one thing, If Kirk Cousins puts up numbers like that, he gets laughed out of the league, regardless of the help; same goes for Dalton, Tannehil, and a few others everyone loves to hate...  Yet Bridgewater, for some reason, gets a pass that frankly, he hasn't earned.

 

So you're hitching you're team's future on the back of some preseason game, before he broke his leg?  ... I really shouldn't be surprised; you have nothing else...

Right, I forgot how Teddy balled out in that game..  What was it ...115 yards passing?   It completely slipped my mind how Bridgewater single-handedly carried them all year.

1) Did I say he didn't have weapons?  No, I said this year's cast was better. This isn't really debateable (Mike Wallace?  LMFAOOOOO)

 

 

2). That video at least somewhat validates the reports from camp that he had improved his deep ball.  

 

3). Did you see Teddy throw any bonehead INTs in that game?  Case singe handedly let the Saints back in the game. Then he throws a pick-6 in the eagles game that completely changed the momentum. Lol @ you trying to use playoff success in Case's favor. He was awful in the playoffs this year. 

 

 

14 TDs looks bad until you realize he was taking 7 step drops behind a terrible OL all year. You're a moron if you think Teddy didn't have upside and was improving. Injury concerns are valid, though. 

[vikingsrule]

On February 26, 2018 at 10:49 PM, Iamcanadian said:

No matter who is their QB, the cheap days are over and they are looking at somewhere around 18 million a year. FA QB's do not come cheap!!!

I think they will stay with Keenum, Teddy is still a huge question mark as to his health and Bradford is probably done. Zimmer stuck with Keenum when he could have switched to Teddy and that speaks volumes to me.

There is no path to the SB that does not include a franchise QB and no matter how good Minny's defense is, they still need to score points.Their offense uses a game manager at QB and as long as they can run the ball, they will compete, but with Rodgers returning, their prospects for making the playoffs is all up in the air.

I do not think a small market team like Minny has any shot at paying Cousins, although he would definitely like to play indoors, he is going to a rich big market team, where he can make a lot of extra money through advertising and Minny does not offer that!!!

Vikes still had a top 10 offense that was one of the more explosive ones in the league. Keenum played well against most opponents but he struggled against quality teams.

[sp6488]

On 2/26/2018 at 10:46 PM, Yin-Yang said:

Defections? They kept Richard Sherman, Kam Chancellor, Earl Thomas, Bobby Wagner, Michael Bennett, KJ Wright and Cliff Avril.

Who did you expect them to keep? Byron Maxwell, Brandon Browner, and Malcolm Smith? 

The Seahawks got to their prominence through amazing/incredibly lucky draft picks and developing those players. What did them - or rather is the main cause for their current decline - wasn’t Wilson’s contract. It’s their fallen-back-to-Earth draft classes. They stopped hitting on later round guys and even higher round prospects. Granted, this offseason they have tough decisions to make cap wise. 

It’s not like there’s only one or two ways of doing things. Denver built an elite defensive unit while paying Peyton Manning near-top value as a QB.

Does having an expensive QB make building an overall tougher? Sure. Does it prevent you from doing so? Absolutely not. Smart drafting and bargain/value FAs are more than enough. 

I feel like the QB costing other players argument gets way overblown.  I would generally rather pay a top-10ish QB $20MM per year (more for an elite guy) than try my luck in the rookie or 5-10MM AAV area and get one or two extra big ticket FAs at other positions.  Now, this gets way more complicated due to the way contracts are structured, etc. but that's the general gist of it.