Troy Brown Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 I hate the idea of every face and every heel are friends Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ketchup Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 15 hours ago, PARROTHEAD said: But its not just them 2. Its anyone from that era. Creative and writers knew how to create and build back then. Theyve totally lost that. All their top current faces show no individual personality. Some 0 personality whatsoever. Like Finn standing around grinning, trying to sound Irish every once and a while. I guess I took your post as a knock on the current talent which I just don't agree with. The talent today is much much better in the ring now then it was during past era's. I agree the characters just aren't up to par but I mainly put that on creative and how terrible they are at listening to what the fans want and playing to the talents strengths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcb1213 Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 54 minutes ago, Ketchup said: I guess I took your post as a knock on the current talent which I just don't agree with. The talent today is much much better in the ring now then it was during past era's. I agree the characters just aren't up to par but I mainly put that on creative and how terrible they are at listening to what the fans want and playing to the talents strengths. listening to what the fans want really doesn't have much to do with character development. Some characters can get over stronger because the crowd hates it if you use it correctly I believe a lot of it has to do with management not giving a lot of control to the wrestlers as you can tell sometimes many are just giving out memorized scripts. I'm sure there are some wrestlers who need scripts as they just aren't creative or quick enough on their own, but i'm sure there are many that are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titans0021 Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 My primary problem is the booking of faces. @PARROTHEAD hit on it with Balor, but the same could also be applied to Rollins, Reigns (at least outside of Shield reunions) and most faces, especially on Raw. It seems like they view any promo where the face doesn't crack a terrible joke and put on a dumb smile as a completely wasted opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PARROTHEAD Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 8 hours ago, Ketchup said: I guess I took your post as a knock on the current talent which I just don't agree with. The talent today is much much better in the ring now then it was during past era's. I agree the characters just aren't up to par but I mainly put that on creative and how terrible they are at listening to what the fans want and playing to the talents strengths. The talent today is smaller and can flip and move better. But the past guys could work the crowd during matches a whole lot better. Which is part of "in ring" talent as much as ability in my view. Id take King Kong Bundy cause of his ring work over guys like Roode for example. Because guys that can work a crowd into frenzies are needed. And WWE lacks. But.. Even with more ability to pull things off today. Why has it been YEARS since WWE (Not including NXT) has put on a 5* match? If it wasnt for the creative workmanship of that tag team match between BB and New Day for the titles. I could basically say for 4*s as well. They are few and far between. They showcased AJ and Naka for months, and rendered it to cheap shots and under 20 min matches. Sure they have talent, but they are making their golden gooses lay sour eggs. And thats not fault I lay on the talent, thats all on management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr LBC Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 5 hours ago, PARROTHEAD said: The talent today is smaller and can flip and move better. But the past guys could work the crowd during matches a whole lot better. Which is part of "in ring" talent as much as ability in my view. Id take King Kong Bundy cause of his ring work over guys like Roode for example. Because guys that can work a crowd into frenzies are needed. And WWE lacks. But.. Even with more ability to pull things off today. Why has it been YEARS since WWE (Not including NXT) has put on a 5* match? If it wasnt for the creative workmanship of that tag team match between BB and New Day for the titles. I could basically say for 4*s as well. They are few and far between. They showcased AJ and Naka for months, and rendered it to cheap shots and under 20 min matches. Sure they have talent, but they are making their golden gooses lay sour eggs. And thats not fault I lay on the talent, thats all on management. The first paragraph I definitely agree with. And there's one thing that absolutely makes it clear that there were just better workers in the back-when: Rest-holds. Nowadays when guys go into rest-holds it's just glaring that that is what they're trying to do, no one cranks on the hold, the guy selling it sells it like it's any other move, and it's blatantly obvious they're just trying to kill time (Corbin is the absolute worst at this, Jinder comes in a clear second). Back when NWA stood for something other than a rap group, guys made reverse-chinlocks, arm-wringers (they were calling them "armbars" back then but it's more of a wringer), even things as simple a trap-pinches were applied and sold with intensity. The second part is, I'm sorry you going overboard. I think the star stuff is overblown. And 5-star matches are Flair/Steamboat territory, and the want/need to give out 4 1/2 and 5 star match status honestly cheapens the grading system because it refuses to be as selective as it should be. Also, there's been a legitimate high-4 to 4 1/2 star match on the main roster in the last couple years - the AJ/Cena match where they decided to just keep the thing in the ring and not go outside (something that guy in WWE and the indies flatly overuse so badly just to get in the exact same tope that 60% of the roster is using to pop the crowd) was such a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr LBC Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 15 hours ago, Troy Brown said: I hate the idea of every face and every heel are friends I'll be honest, that's why one of my favorite concepts from WCW was the Lethal Lottery & Battle Bowl (granted this is something Vince will never do because it's not his idea), where they were able to use the initial tournament to plant seeds for feuds in the near future by "randomly" drawing tag teams (where you see regular tag teams split up and sometimes those members having to face each other on opposing teams, babyface/babyface teams, babyface/heel teems, heel/heel teams where they still didn't necessarily get along or ended up with beef with one another). There was always an endgame planned with who was going over in the Battle Bowl, but they could achieve so much in story creation and advancement all across the roster in the course of a single night. Honestly, I think part of what has also worked to hurt ability of faces/heels to get over is that they do so many of these other programs for the Network outside of RAW and Smackdown where the guys break kayfabe; it also doesn't help that a number of those shows where it happens (Ride Along is a prime example) are taped 4-6 months before they ever air and sometimes you've got guys and girls who have done full-on alignment shifts since that taping. But you take, for example, a babyface AJ riding with a (as they were booked then) heel Gallows and Anderson and they're totally buddy/buddy because outside the ring they're extremely good friends. I'm not saying you have to keep kayfabe like they did in the territory days (where heels were expected to stay heel even if they went out in public or to a bar and that meant not riding with, rooming with - i.e. separate hotels for heels and faces, or drinking with babyface talent. But they really would benefit from disciplining the talent into staying in-character and in-alignment when doing other Network programming. The roundabout way that also benefits them is it pushes them towards crafting their character the way that every successful legend has said is the best way to get your character over: Make it yourself dialed up to 11. No, Steve Austin doesn't go around kicking his boss' butt, but he loves the drink, swears like sailor, can be an ornery SOB who is going to do what he wants to do whether people like it or not, etc. Rocky was actually fond of talking about himself in the 3rd person backstage - to the point that other guys on the same strata chewed him out because the didn't think he was taking them seriously when laying out matches backstage. Bret Hart genuinely believes he's the greatest technical wrestler there has ever been (with the possible exception of his father). Vince loves him some nicknames (as clearly evidenced by Michael Cole's weekly scripts), but guys can - believe it or not - steer their character more than a lot of them do, they just don't want to rock the boat with a few exceptions. Some of that may be lack of confidence, some of that may be that they're embracing a character the got in the PC or NXT a little too hard and not being willing to take the risk of riffing. I don't like using Joe as the example of what guys should be doing because I'm not sure all the guys on the roster have had the opportunity to become as familiar with their character as Joe has, but with that in mind, he's also one of the few guys that - even when he's given a script - doesn't feel the need to drop the cliche catchphrases that Vince loves (and that he very well may have been given). Honestly, if they're going to script in the nicknames and catchphrases, they'd be better putting the nickname in the scripted/suggested dialogue for the opponent of whoever the guy is facing. Rather than Corbin constantly ragging on Finn for being small in the recent feud (which was just a rehash of his feud with Kallisto on Smackdown), why not have him be the one to consistently bring up Balor Club and the "(extra)Ordinary Man who Does Extra Ordinary Things" in his promos on Finn, but have him do it in a mocking fashion; calling him "ordinary" would have been just as heelish as calling him "little." Oversaturation is definitely an issue, but it also doesn't help that if they're going to push these nicknames and catchphrases they make the point of having Cole and the other commentators beating it to death and in doing so taking promo fodder away from the heels (or vice versa from the faces to use against the heels - IIRC babyface Kane used to make a regular thing out of trashing the bits/gimmicks of his opponents and just doing it with a fantastic deadpan/dry delivery). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom cody Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 To me the talent is as immense in the WWE as ever but character development is terrible. Back in the day everyone had a character/role, these days it seems like aside from a few people, the talent is just there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Brown Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 please give us more raws where reigns is banned from raw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Brown Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 Please stop with the cop stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawgX Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 Missed most of Raw (thanks to MNF). Caught a few minutes here and there during commercial breaks, but doesn't seem like I missed a whole lot. What happened during the main event? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PARROTHEAD Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 Watched the show in a half hour. Just stopping for HHH and such. But got enough this week and last to make the judgement call. Renee Young is awful. She makes me miss Booker and Coach. If they wanted to pull more of their agenda forcing crap. They should of at least tried out Lita in the role as commentator. Shes good at preshows, Work her out, let her catch a groove. And see if she can hang out there. And Dawgx. Balor beat Elisa. Then Braun when to the ring and called out Roman. So Roman went out and beat him up, slamming him through the stage, leaving the show to end with a Roman pose down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastor Dillon Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 I hope Survivor series is going to set up a "Control of Raw match" Corbin/Owens/Stroman/Ziggler/Mcentire vs Reigns/Rollins/Ambrose/Balor/Angle make it happen! Also, I would love to see the Shield vs Dogs of war match at super show down under to be for the Universal title and the tag titles, but its going to be a glorified house show like the Greatest Royal Rumble was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Brown Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 12 hours ago, DawgX said: Missed most of Raw (thanks to MNF). Caught a few minutes here and there during commercial breaks, but doesn't seem like I missed a whole lot. What happened during the main event? the same show for the last couple months, it seems. shield comes out. gm threatens to arrest, has them banned from the arena. they come back. this time because of some weird law in louisiana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pollino14 Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 So I watched the shortened version of the show and I’m still upset at the time I wasted . What a boring show! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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