The Totally Transcendent Teddy Thread

[Klomp]

11 minutes ago, Purplexing said:

What stats for TB and SB concern you to the point you don't think either QB has good/ adequate potential to be QBOTF?  QB rating?  YPA?  YPC?  W-L record?  Completion %?  INT % ??? TD/ INT ratio?  Sack %?  ...

That said and with regard to your reply, whatever it is, why do you think TWO QBs may both fail?

I never said I don't think either has the potential to be QBOTF...I just don't think either has shown enough at this point to be given the label.

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Purplexing said:

It's inevitable that, in a thread about a QB controversy, with a tennis match of volleys by people on both sides of the issue, a shot will be hit WAAAAY out of bounds.

I hope there is some more objective info on TB's health soon, so that the discussion is more informative than speculative scenarios.  In the meantime, it would add credibility to the discussion of those who feels TB or SB will perform better in the future if they support their theories.  I see stats for both QBs that lend credence to their success as the Vikings starting QB of the Future.  So, I'm retrieving a wildly errant volley hit OOB and offering this 'serve' to restart the thread back 'on-topic':  what stats or other justifications can you offer that points to one QB or the other as the QBOTF? 

I think there are NO stats for either that would point to them being THE QBOTF for the Vikings.  When Teddy started it was in a different offense, centered on Peterson and the running game.  That's the same offense that Sam had, but then the OC quits...and due to injury, so does the offensive line and running game.

Shurmer has now had time to establish his playbook.  Now, that may give Bradford an edge to begin with, but Teddy has proven to be a quick study, and it won't be an edge for long in my opinion.  As much as we might want to have the matter settled clearly...we fans are just going to have to see how things play out.

[SteelKing728]

13 hours ago, Purplexing said:

What stats for TB and SB concern you to the point you don't think either QB has good/ adequate potential to be QBOTF?  QB rating?  YPA?  YPC?  W-L record?  Completion %?  INT % ??? TD/ INT ratio?  Sack %?  ...

That said and with regard to your reply, whatever it is, why do you think TWO QBs may both fail?

for Teddy, you could argue that instead of stats, it's how his knee will hold up. he should come back 100% at some point this season, but I think he may have a greater risk of re-injury than of those who have a 'typical' ACL tear. In addition, even if he comes back physically healthy with no long-term issues, how will he handle it mentally? 

[Purplexing]

21 hours ago, Klomp said:

I never said I don't think either has the potential to be QBOTF...I just don't think either has shown enough at this point to be given the label.

What stats of either or both were too meager to suggest they 'haven't shown enough'?

[Purplexing]

10 hours ago, Virginia Viking said:

I think there are NO stats for either that would point to them being THE QBOTF for the Vikings.  When Teddy started it was in a different offense, centered on Peterson and the running game.  That's the same offense that Sam had, but then the OC quits...and due to injury, so does the offensive line and running game.

Shurmer has now had time to establish his playbook.  Now, that may give Bradford an edge to begin with, but Teddy has proven to be a quick study, and it won't be an edge for long in my opinion.  As much as we might want to have the matter settled clearly...we fans are just going to have to see how things play out.

No stats?  SB's QB rating last year of just under 100 wasn't sufficient?  His NFL record completion % of 71.XX% wasn't good enough?  Same Qs, without supplying specific stats or performances of TB.

IF stats aren't a key criteria to signal impending success, what is/ are one, or two?

What about the Shurmer playbook (familiarity, experience in games, lends itself to SBs style of play more so that TBs style of play) does SB have an edge over TB now?  Why do you think TB will eventually surpass SB?

 

[Klomp]

It's not about numbers for me.

One QB is coming off a catastrophic injury of historic proportions, while the other didn't get a full season in the current OC's scheme. I just want to see someone establish himself as the guy.

[Purplexing]

3 minutes ago, Klomp said:

It's not about numbers for me.

One QB is coming off a catastrophic injury of historic proportions, while the other didn't get a full season in the current OC's scheme. I just want to see someone establish himself as the guy.

That makes some sense.  But SB did well under less than ideal circumstances of a shabby OL and poor running game; i.e. high completion %, good/ very good QB rating. 

Is it the lack of a full season of stats against a wide variety of teams and strong defenses that concerns you?  IDK the strength of schedule wherein SB played under Shurmer's O, but it must have included at least one good / top D.

[SemperFeist]

It's not about the stats. It's about the situations. 

We saw Bridgewater make clutch throws in the frigid conditions, against the league's best defense in the playoffs. When the throw was needed, he found Rudolph and put the team in position to win the game as time expired. Bridgewater has that "clutch" factor to him  

Bradford in 7 years has a history of not making those clutch throws. We saw it ourselves against Philadelphia, Washington, the second game against Detroit, and against Dallas. 

I need to see him come through in those moments more often for me to consider him as the QBOTF. 

[Guest]

14 hours ago, Purplexing said:

No stats?  SB's QB rating last year of just under 100 wasn't sufficient?  His NFL record completion % of 71.XX% wasn't good enough?  Same Qs, without supplying specific stats or performances of TB.

IF stats aren't a key criteria to signal impending success, what is/ are one, or two?

What about the Shurmer playbook (familiarity, experience in games, lends itself to SBs style of play more so that TBs style of play) does SB have an edge over TB now?  Why do you think TB will eventually surpass SB?

 

If you look more closely at my post I didn't say that statistics are not valuable indicators.  What I did say is that no single or group of statistics, indicates, one way or another, that Bradford or Bridgewater is undeniably the quarterback of the future for the Vikings.  I also said, if you look at my post again, that Bradford's familiarity with Shumer's offense will give him a knowledge edge.  However, the 2017 offense needs better production from the offensive line and better production from the running game...which I also said in my original post.

Anecdotally, I also have posted that the knowledge edge Bradford has is temporary, as Bridgewater is able to pick things up quickly.  Then, the contest will be who has more upside.  Again, in my opinion, that will be Teddy (assuming full recovery.)  The question that I was responding to is what statistics lead me to believe that one of these two will be the Vikings quarterback of the future.  I don't any statistic indicates that either has the advantage on the other today, but I suspect Teddy will pull ahead in the contest when he is cleared to practice and play.

[wcblack34]

I see a bit of Jim Plunkett in Sam Bradford. 

High draft pick who didn't work out with his first team. Went to a team where he didn't have to be a superstar, and played well enough to win a couple of Super Bowls. No one mistakes him for a Hall of Famer, or the best of his era, but he was talented enough to put an excellent team over the top. 

Neither Teddy or Sam will be Tom Brady or Peyton Manning. But they just might be enough to put us over the top once or twice if there is an adequate cast around them. 

[vike daddy]

31 minutes ago, wcblack34 said:

I see a bit of Jim Plunkett in Sam Bradford.  

interesting comparison, very much so. does that make Thielen his Randy Vataha?

[swede700]

So, then who's Cliff Branch?

[Robb_K]

On 8/9/2017 at 0:08 AM, Purplexing said:

That makes some sense.  But SB did well under less than ideal circumstances of a shabby OL and poor running game; i.e. high completion %, good/ very good QB rating. 

Is it the lack of a full season of stats against a wide variety of teams and strong defenses that concerns you?  IDK the strength of schedule wherein SB played under Shurmer's O, but it must have included at least one good / top D.

Both high completion %, and very good QB rating were bouyed by Bradford's panic short tosses for little gain, no gain, or losses, to avoid being hit.  Worse than that, many of them were tosses WELL SHORT of the 1st down marker on 3rd Down, destined to stop drives.  His high % of completions is NOT really anywhere near as "effective" as it looks out of context.  And his QB rating, made higher than it should be because of the high completion %, should be significantly lower because of THAT, AND should be lowered even more, due to his stopping all those drives by not throwing past the 1st down marker on so many 3rd downs, and even some 4th Downs.

Bradford played reasonably well considering that he's no kid with live legs, AND he had a horrendous OL last season.  But, let's not kid ourselves into thinking his overall game (at least the way he has played recently in NFL games) is capable of making him an all star this season, even with an average NFL OL.  He looks to be somewhere in the middle of the pack of current NFL starting QBs. 

AND, that's just about where Teddy was, just before getting hurt.  But, THAT status was dependent upon his using his good running ability to get out of trouble and even earn positive yardage and 1st Downs.  He won't have that ability when he returns (EVEN if the doctors say he is 100% healthy).  He will NOT want to risk getting hit his entire first year back, as he won't really know if he can take the hits and not get re-injured.  He'll probably NEVER  be able to run like he did before his injury.  EVEN if he really could, physically, he probably will always want to avoid as much contact as possible, to avoid the risk of losing his career to one hard hit.   So, he will need to develop his play reading, pocket skills and learn to throw the ball away quickly, to make up for his new lesser mobility.  In short, he will be forced to make himself a smarter and more skilled QB, because one of his greatest assets from before will not be available to him.  But THAT makes him start off BEHIND where he was when he was injured.

So, BOTH Bradford AND Teddy will have to continue improving their games as they practice and play games together with their receivers and OLs, to be adequate enough for The Vikings to make the playoffs, and certainly, for them to make a long playoff run.  I believe BOTH are capable of being all star QBs with this improved OL, and improved defence, which will keep giving the OL the ball more often, for more drives and more time together to eventually play better together, as a unit.

 

 

[Purplexing]

2 hours ago, Robb_K said:

Both high completion %, and very good QB rating were bouyed by Bradford's panic short tosses for little gain, no gain, or losses, to avoid being hit.  Worse than that, many of them were tosses WELL SHORT of the 1st down marker on 3rd Down, destined to stop drives.  His high % of completions is NOT really anywhere near as "effective" as it looks out of context.  And his QB rating, made higher than it should be because of the high completion %, should be significantly lower because of THAT, AND should be lowered even more, due to his stopping all those drives by not throwing past the 1st down marker on so many 3rd downs, and even some 4th Downs.

Bradford played reasonably well considering that he's no kid with live legs, AND he had a horrendous OL last season.  But, let's not kid ourselves into thinking his overall game (at least the way he has played recently in NFL games) is capable of making him an all star this season, even with an average NFL OL.  He looks to be somewhere in the middle of the pack of current NFL starting QBs. 

AND, that's just about where Teddy was, just before getting hurt.  But, THAT status was dependent upon his using his good running ability to get out of trouble and even earn positive yardage and 1st Downs.  He won't have that ability when he returns (EVEN if the doctors say he is 100% healthy).  He will NOT want to risk getting hit his entire first year back, as he won't really know if he can take the hits and not get re-injured.  He'll probably NEVER  be able to run like he did before his injury.  EVEN if he really could, physically, he probably will always want to avoid as much contact as possible, to avoid the risk of losing his career to one hard hit.   So, he will need to develop his play reading, pocket skills and learn to throw the ball away quickly, to make up for his new lesser mobility.  In short, he will be forced to make himself a smarter and more skilled QB, because one of his greatest assets from before will not be available to him.  But THAT makes him start off BEHIND where he was when he was injured.

So, BOTH Bradford AND Teddy will have to continue improving their games as they practice and play games together with their receivers and OLs, to be adequate enough for The Vikings to make the playoffs, and certainly, for them to make a long playoff run.  I believe BOTH are capable of being all star QBs with this improved OL, and improved defence, which will keep giving the OL the ball more often, for more drives and more time together to eventually play better together, as a unit.

 

 

Are 'panic short tosses' necessarily a bad thing?  Is a deeper throw to covered receivers any better?  Same question for a sack or incompletion on a deeper throw.  Running?

You stress first down conversions as a primary measure of a QB's effectiveness.  Why isn't it included in a QB rating (theoretical measure of effectiveness of a QB for scoring, winning games) ?  Which Vikings QB (SB, TB, CK, TH) was/ is/ will be the most effective first down gainer, and why?

[JDBrocks]

I mean, a failed completion on Third Down is the same as an incompletion. The drive failed and no points were scored. Bradford was one of the worst in the league last year when it came to failed completions. There are many factors that play into that, but that has been an issue for his whole career.

 

edit: additionally, QBR and Passer Ratings aren't necessarily the best measure of performance. They are flawed and don't account for things that they should.