BayRaider Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Let's not forget Mack is graded the best run defender almost every year as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroncoBruin Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 2 hours ago, BayRaider said: Let's not forget Mack is graded the best run defender almost every year as well. Mack is the standard there, but Von graded out as the best run defender at the position last year. He has always been awesome against the run too, fans have a really weird perception of Von being this quasi-one dimensional player (probably just based on the fact that he's a lighter, faster edge defender and nothing he's actually done on the field). That really hasn't been the case since his rookie year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolts223 Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 I think this totally depends on what you mean Who would I want on my team going forward? Mack because he is 3 years younger. Who would I want if I can have them at the beginning of their career? Von Miller. You really can't go wrong with either, but Khalil Mack doesn't quite put the same fear of God into me when we play the Raiders as Von Miller does when we play the Broncos. Also Von has championship pedigree and has proved more throughout his career, Mack still can do that but he hasn't yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKillerNacho Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 I think Mack is the better player right now, but Miller's early career was better than Mack's early career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Curious, as far as pass rushing goes, are people taking into account that Mack rushing left tackles double what Von was is obviously going to make it harder for him to get pressure/sacks? And he's still sacked the quarterback more and had more pressures than Von in the past 3 years? I can't blame people for choosing Von because of postseason and because they've obviously watched him more, but I don't think that people take into account supporting cast for edge rushers. Cornerback play is a very relevant metric when it comes to evaluating edge rushers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroncoBruin Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 14 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said: Curious, as far as pass rushing goes, are people taking into account that Mack rushing left tackles double what Von was is obviously going to make it harder for him to get pressure/sacks? And he's still sacked the quarterback more and had more pressures than Von in the past 3 years? I can't blame people for choosing Von because of postseason and because they've obviously watched him more, but I don't think that people take into account supporting cast for edge rushers. Cornerback play is a very relevant metric when it comes to evaluating edge rushers. I'd put more stock in pressure rate (efficiency) than total number of pressures (volume). Don't have those numbers, but I know Von led the league in pressure rate last year. Constantly playing from behind has really limited Von's pass rushing opportunities in the past two years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 34 minutes ago, BroncoBruin said: I'd put more stock in pressure rate (efficiency) than total number of pressures (volume). Don't have those numbers, but I know Von led the league in pressure rate last year. Constantly playing from behind has really limited Von's pass rushing opportunities in the past two years. 1 I don't disagree with efficiency, but then would you agree that the amount of time a quarterback holds the ball and rushing against left/right tackles matters too? Like a sack on Tyron Smith is a lot more impressive than a sack on Menelik Watson, but how do you contextualize that? Or if a qb holds a ball .5 more seconds on average, which increases the likelihood of a pressure and thus the efficiency. Or if a player is rushing against a team's best pass protector, that reduces their chance of pressure and also the efficiency of generating pressures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroncoBruin Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 16 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said: I don't disagree with efficiency, but then would you agree that the amount of time a quarterback holds the ball and rushing against left/right tackles matters too? Like a sack on Tyron Smith is a lot more impressive than a sack on Menelik Watson, but how do you contextualize that? Or if a qb holds a ball .5 more seconds on average, which increases the likelihood of a pressure and thus the efficiency. Or if a player is rushing against a team's best pass protector, that reduces their chance of pressure and also the efficiency of generating pressures. And therein lies the general issue with statistic-dependent arguments in football. It's one rabbit hole after another to try to quantify everything. Makes you appreciate how easily baseball can be broken down into numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 11 minutes ago, BroncoBruin said: And therein lies the general issue with statistic-dependent arguments in football. It's one rabbit hole after another to try to quantify everything. Makes you appreciate how easily baseball can be broken down into numbers. Yep. See I enjoy this kind of discussion. I just don't like when people on here throw out the shallowest arguments (not pointing fingers here, just a general comment) like "OMG SUPERBOWL VON IS FOREVER THE GOAT". This is something I can get behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyBacall Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 Why can't they both just be great? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 5 hours ago, SmittyBacall said: Why can't they both just be great? They are, I just think if you are going to split hairs, its good to consider all the context that me and BroncoBruin laid out, as opposed to using shallow narratives to define which player is better than the other. You won't see me put Von down, or say he's trash. He's obviously elite and consistently a top edge rusher in the league/future HOF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 If you are talking getting both at the start of their career or at the same age, give me Von, simply because his game has stood the test of time longer, both are literally elite in almost every respect. Will Mack keep up the same type of peformance as the miles add up? Today though, if they aren't adjusted for same stage of career, you'd probably want Mack, being 3 years younger. The difference isn't enough to warrant the timing of decline, no matter how great Von is. Honestly, though, this is pretty much 1A vs. 1B argument. They're in their own EDGE tier, together, above everyone else. It's no coincidence you end up seeing them side by side year in and year out since both have established themselves (and yes, I believe in the efficiency argument vs. bulk stats - why I don't buy the Stafford-is-elite arguments from past, but that's a different story). I will end by saying I'd bet Gruden would at least talk to Von this summer....if that's the final tiebreaker (I kid). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pool Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 On 8/18/2018 at 8:55 PM, MrOaktown_56 said: Oh god. I'm going to refrain from putting one player down here to uplift the other. Lets just say both. I just want Mack to have better corners and an interior rush because I wanna really see him rack up some sack numbers this year. For what it's worth, I think they're the consensus two best edge guys in the league and I'd like to hear a good argument why they aren't. What's that saying about be careful what you wish for? I'm sorry I couldn't resist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankWilliams Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 I thought it was Von Miller before Mack was traded to the Bears, and its going to stay that way until I see otherwise. I do think they are both very close in talent, but between the two I'd take Miller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullsandBroncos Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 I'd take either one, but those saying Mack is considerably better at playing the run are hilarious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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