Best QB's Ever

[lancerman]

12 hours ago, Jlowe22 said:

I do think he's GOAT, but that its not even close?  I think Montana and Peyton are pretty close.  The Patriots rarely put garbage on the field, and its just as impressive to me that Belichick manages such a consistently solid roster.  Yes, I know Brady is the biggest reason for their success, but would Montana or Peyton have similar success with the Patriots?  Montana had a great team in his own right (but also won 4 superbowls), and its hard to imagine Peyton and Belichick together, but they're smart guys, no reason to think they wouldn't have found a way to demolish the league.

Montana rarely had garbage on the field. Peyton maybe never had the tippy top best teams, but for 80% of his time in Indy (03-09) and his entire tenure in Denver he was almost always on a top 3 team talent wise. All 3 of them were in fortunate situations compared to their peers. Go through every QB in history and tell me who enjoyed the most consistently great WR play. It's Manning by a mile. Montana had the all time best for two of his. Both teams were in conference title games and competing not long after both QB's left. 

I look at 3 things when I judge QB's. Bulk stats. Efficiency stats. Wins/playoffs. One is on field production, one is carefulness with ball and how controlled their play is, the other is what they are actually tasked to do and that's lead teams to wins.

Nobody hits them all like Brady. 

[Jlowe22]

1 hour ago, lancerman said:

Montana rarely had garbage on the field. Peyton maybe never had the tippy top best teams, but for 80% of his time in Indy (03-09) and his entire tenure in Denver he was almost always on a top 3 team talent wise. All 3 of them were in fortunate situations compared to their peers. Go through every QB in history and tell me who enjoyed the most consistently great WR play. It's Manning by a mile. Montana had the all time best for two of his. Both teams were in conference title games and competing not long after both QB's left. 

I look at 3 things when I judge QB's. Bulk stats. Efficiency stats. Wins/playoffs. One is on field production, one is carefulness with ball and how controlled their play is, the other is what they are actually tasked to do and that's lead teams to wins.

Nobody hits them all like Brady. 

I acknowledged that about Montana, but he also won four Super Bowls with his team, which isn't out of Brady's league by any stretch.  

Peyton's entire body of work certainly puts him in the conversation, and deservedly so.

[JonStark]

Gotta be Brady. The gap after him is closer than some people make it, but he's the definitive GOAT.

[Hunter2_1]

9 hours ago, ChazStandard said:

Yeah, Peyton is the answer if you're starting a new franchise from scratch. No question.

I mean, as long as you get him 2 all-pro receivers, an all-pro running back, an all-pro center, a pro-bowl LT and all-pro Tight End, well then he might, sometime down the line, not play quite bad enough to lose the superbowl for you. As long as your HoF kicker doesn't miss a single kick and your defense scores more points than they allow.

Haha

Brady or Rodgers is the answer to this question, as well. Obviously.

[PFM18]

If you're looking at the history of QB's and their legacy it has to be Tom Brady. He's won 5 rings and could even win more.

But everyone has an opinion, and if anyone was to ask mine I would always say that Peyton Manning is the greatest QB the sport has ever seen.

He was the absolute best at controlling the line of scrimmage. He was the coach on the field. And even though he had great receivers to work with, he also made receivers great (See: Austin Collie, Pierre Garcon and the well known Blair White project)

I can accept Brady is the greatest in terms of what he has achieved in the game, but for a QB that was great to watch, and you would pay to see play every time, always #18.

[lancerman]

1 hour ago, Jlowe22 said:

I acknowledged that about Montana, but he also won four Super Bowls with his team, which isn't out of Brady's league by any stretch.  

Peyton's entire body of work certainly puts him in the conversation, and deservedly so.

They got are in the conversation but then I'd ask what are you judging it off of. For Manning the entire conversation has to boil down to bulk stats and MVP and that's kind of it. For Montana it comes down to really playing excellent in 4 Super Bowls. 

[ChazStandard]

1 hour ago, PFM18 said:

If you're looking at the history of QB's and their legacy it has to be Tom Brady. He's won 5 rings and could even win more.

But everyone has an opinion, and if anyone was to ask mine I would always say that Peyton Manning is the greatest QB the sport has ever seen.

He was the absolute best at controlling the line of scrimmage. He was the coach on the field. And even though he had great receivers to work with, he also made receivers great (See: Austin Collie, Pierre Garcon and the well known Blair White project)

I can accept Brady is the greatest in terms of what he has achieved in the game, but for a QB that was great to watch, and you would pay to see play every time, always #18.

I don't want this to collapse into an old-fashioned Peyton v Brady thread - but was he more of a "coach on the field" than other elite QBs? I mean, he waved his arms a lot more, but was he any smarter than the others? Is there anyway to objectively test that? Each of the "big four" QBs (Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, Brees) has had some WR or TE or OL they've played with describe them as "the smartest player in the league" or something like that.

How did Peyton make Garcon great? He has had his best seasons with the redskins. And as for Blair White, he was the fifth target for one season, behind an all-pro (Wayne) and a pro-bowler (Garcon). He was a role player with 350 yards for one season. You could just as well say that Brees made Devery Henderson great, or Brady made Reche Caldwell great.

 

[PFM18]

26 minutes ago, ChazStandard said:

I don't want this to collapse into an old-fashioned Peyton v Brady thread - but was he more of a "coach on the field" than other elite QBs? I mean, he waved his arms a lot more, but was he any smarter than the others? Is there anyway to objectively test that? Each of the "big four" QBs (Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, Brees) has had some WR or TE or OL they've played with describe them as "the smartest player in the league" or something like that.

How did Peyton make Garcon great? He has had his best seasons with the redskins. And as for Blair White, he was the fifth target for one season, behind an all-pro (Wayne) and a pro-bowler (Garcon). He was a role player with 350 yards for one season. You could just as well say that Brees made Devery Henderson great, or Brady made Reche Caldwell great.

 

I don't deny that Brady, Rodgers and Brees are all smart QB's and could also be described as on field coaches. I have more familiarity with Peyton as I watched and supported him for 16 years. Game in game out, heck on every play he would read and usually dissect Defensive Schemes and move the ball down the field.

I suppose the point I was trying to make with his WR's is that yes, he has had great receivers throughout his career. He had Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison, Demaryius Thomas, Emmanuel Sanders etc. He even had quality TE's like Dallas Clark and to a lesser extent Julius Thomas. But he was also able to work with lesser known wide receivers, and trusted them to be productive.

Add to the fact in Indianapolis for part of the time he barely had a running game to depend on. The Colts were regularly near the bottom of the stats for Rushing Yards, yet he still managed to fool defences and make plays when there was little to no fear of a running game.

It's fair to say Garcon was and is already great. But I would argue starting his career with Peyton Manning as his QB certainly helped him on the road to that level.

In a way it would be nice to see Peyton go into coaching just to pass on the knowledge of the position and the game to the next generation. I just hope he comes back into the game in some capacity. 

 

 

[Kiwibrown]

On 8/17/2017 at 8:31 PM, ChazStandard said:

Yeah, Peyton is the answer if you're starting a new franchise from scratch. No question.

I mean, as long as you get him 2 all-pro receivers, an all-pro running back, an all-pro center, a pro-bowl LT and all-pro Tight End, well then he might, sometime down the line, not play quite bad enough to lose the superbowl for you. As long as your HoF kicker doesn't miss a single kick and your defense scores more points than they allow.

Ease up on the sarcasm uce. 

What is your positive response to my question? who would you take? 

I think taking a 22 year old Peyton Manning is fair choice. He has a good arm, he is good in the pocket. He is a football encyclopaedia. He has a name that would attract players to be around him and is very marketable. There are other people in the conversation also, Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Michael Vick, Bret Favre, whoever you want can be discussed because this is a forum. 

I certainy do not want to make this into a thread about Tom Brady and Peyton Manning. On FF if someone saya Peyton Manning, another two say Tom Brady. 

[Hunter2_1]

36 minutes ago, Kiwibrown said:

Ease up on the sarcasm uce. 

What is your positive response to my question? who would you take? 

I think taking a 22 year old Peyton Manning is fair choice. He has a good arm, he is good in the pocket. He is a football encyclopaedia. He has a name that would attract players to be around him and is very marketable. There are other people in the conversation also, Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Michael Vick, Bret Favre, whoever you want can be discussed because this is a forum. 

I certainy do not want to make this into a thread about Tom Brady and Peyton Manning. On FF if someone saya Peyton Manning, another two say Tom Brady. 

I think Richie would make a good QB, don't you? 

[Buddyboy]

Oh please, the early QB's, Baugh, Luckman, Graham, Waterfield invented the modern position.

Unitas and Starr pushed it to the next level.

Staubach, Bradshaw and Tarkenton  made it state of the art.

Montana, Marino, Kelly, Aikman, P Manning and Brady are next generation.

[Kiwibrown]

16 hours ago, Hunter2_1 said:

I think Richie would make a good QB, don't you? 

Assuming you mean Richie McCaw in which case Id say he would be a great 4-3 OLB. Similair to Luke Kechley. 

[thebestever6]

On 8/17/2017 at 4:20 PM, ChazStandard said:

I don't want this to collapse into an old-fashioned Peyton v Brady thread - but was he more of a "coach on the field" than other elite QBs? I mean, he waved his arms a lot more, but was he any smarter than the others? Is there anyway to objectively test that? Each of the "big four" QBs (Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, Brees) has had some WR or TE or OL they've played with describe them as "the smartest player in the league" or something like that.

How did Peyton make Garcon great? He has had his best seasons with the redskins. And as for Blair White, he was the fifth target for one season, behind an all-pro (Wayne) and a pro-bowler (Garcon). He was a role player with 350 yards for one season. You could just as well say that Brees made Devery Henderson great, or Brady made Reche Caldwell great.

 

The eye test tells me Peyton is on Brady's level if not better. The Broncos teams he blew out in the wild card rounds were no slouch. Peyton made them look that way. Peyton always ran an offense built on timing and the patriots disrupted that timing.

You know why because Bill B is the best coach ever at playing chess and thinking 3 moves ahead. Not only to build a team but coaching it. 

I argue that brady won 3 out of 5 superbowls up until 14' because Bill is just that damn good. His defenses stopped the greatest show on turf regardless of the role of spy gate, his coaching one upped the panters and Seahawks barely, and his coahing gave mcnabb headaches. None of that changes if peyton is on the team.

 Hell Peyton may beat eli in thevbug game because Peyton dominated eli. Tom brady is an all time great.

Peyton though, I feel gets better results on the Pats because if you combine a great coach playing chess along with the best qb playing chess you have the greatest advantage. 

where does Gary Kubiak rank among coaches who won a title? I'll tell you Gary was good at one thing judging the pulse of his football team. Does a bill bellicheck coached team get blown out by the seahawks with Manning on it? 

[Hunter2_1]

6 hours ago, Kiwibrown said:

Assuming you mean Richie McCaw in which case Id say he would be a great 4-3 OLB. Similair to Luke Kechley. 

I reckon more of an OLB/SS hybrid type where he can rob the ball constantly 

[Pugger]

On 8/17/2017 at 4:20 PM, ChazStandard said:

I don't want this to collapse into an old-fashioned Peyton v Brady thread - but was he more of a "coach on the field" than other elite QBs? I mean, he waved his arms a lot more, but was he any smarter than the others? Is there anyway to objectively test that? Each of the "big four" QBs (Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, Brees) has had some WR or TE or OL they've played with describe them as "the smartest player in the league" or something like that.

How did Peyton make Garcon great? He has had his best seasons with the redskins. And as for Blair White, he was the fifth target for one season, behind an all-pro (Wayne) and a pro-bowler (Garcon). He was a role player with 350 yards for one season. You could just as well say that Brees made Devery Henderson great, or Brady made Reche Caldwell great.

 

All of the elites are smarter than your average starting QB.  At this position you have to be to play at the level they do.  But because we can't get into their heads out there it is impossible to know if one of these greats is smarter than the others imo.