Raiders Defense

[oakdb36]

57 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

Absolutely. I hate the logic or lack thereof in this line of thinking. There are a dozen posters here who could have drafted better than the 2012 to 2016 Browns zero doubt in my mind. I think half the forum could gave drafted better than twighlight Al Davis too and I say that as a huge Davis fan.

Mayock is still in his honeymoon period and IMO hasn't had the sustained success yet to be immune to criticism. 

Problem is some posters are so full of their own opinions that they can come to a conclusion when no one has even played a down of pro football. It's easy to do because no one will remember when they're wrong but they'll make sure to remind everybody of the times they were right. There's a difference between saying you'd have done something differently and saying this is a bad pick based on nothing but your opinion, which is more often than not influenced by the opinions of others.

[jimkelly02]

11 hours ago, Turnobili said:

a) i think its lazy to brush off criticism of a pick with "oh you think you'd be a better drafter than mayock?"

no, i dont think i would be. that doesnt mean we cant criticize specific decisions. if everybody just decided "well the GM knows best, who are we to question" then there would be no purpose for message boards. 

you also call it complaining for the sake of complaining, but that ignores my praise for picks that i liked.

b) i understand that there are schematic reasons why some CBs would have been better fits than others. i didnt say we should have taken Bryce Hall over Damon Arnette. i said i would have taken him instead of Tanner Muse at 100, because I dont think Muse has a clear path to starting outside of special teams, which i dont consider valuable enough for a 3rd round pick. i'd rather throw more darts at positions that require volume, most notably CB. 

c) again, the snark of "im sorry you didnt get your dream draft" is unwarranted. we post here not only to talk about how much we love the raiders but also to voice disagreements with some decisions made. we can agree to disagree on whether the draft, overall, was solid. i wasnt a fan of our first round (i like that we went WR-CB, but I don't think we took the right guys at those spots). edwards is the only pick in the 3rd round that i felt made sense. i loved our two 4th round picks. obviously, time will tell when it comes to whether the draft was a success or not, but at this stage, i'm pretty lukewarm on it.

I’ll be short cuz I’m racing to work this morning.... so my thoughts may be more scattered then usual

no one said you can’t criticize a specific decision.  But your being disingenuous categorizing what I said as D riding Mayock with the old “Trust in Mayock” rhetoric.  I have people who D ride like that and I’d never do it.  My issue is you just sound like your complaining cuz you didn’t get “your guys” ... maybe your not but that’s how it read to me.

What you did with @MrOaktown_56 was distort what he said figuratively.  You took what he said to an extreme.  You know it and we all know it.

you can dislike Muse at 100, I don’t even love it.  But your argument is Muse is only a STer and that’s not what you spend a 3rd on.  But Mayock sees him As a future starter at LB.  I think it’s more likely your right in the end, but Mayock could get right.  Muse has a great athletic profile for a SAM imo.    He’s taking a risk.  

my issue isn’t with your criticism of the picks but how you went about it.  And that’s my lesser issue. The bigger issue I had was you misconstrueding the reach comment by @MrOaktown_56

I’ll edit this on lunch break.

[Darbsk]

22 minutes ago, jimkelly02 said:

Yeah im bit disregarding a 4th and/or 5th round pick we could have added.  They can be valuable.  
but if you value Arnette as a tier 1 CB and don’t love any of the 2nd tier guys I understand why Mayock didn’t F around and try to get cute and chance losing out on him.  Not to mention we could (and did) add a 4th by trading Back from one of the 3 3rds we had. The “value” in the trade down was also around 50 cents on the dollar.  It’s not that I’m advocating adding a 4th round pick isn’t important... that’d not true at all.  I personally want to squeeze every pick I can out of any possible trade down.  What I said was I understand why Mayock chose not to.  He even said he considered it and decided not to.  He didn’t want to get caught getting cute and push his luck.  What’s more important: guaranteeing you land your 1st round CB in Arnette (after already losing out on Terrell) or adding a 4th?  Personally I’d love to get both but Mayock didn’t want to take the risk and I understand that.  There was a lot of volatility in the CB rankings snd Someone easily could have taken Arnette before us.... leaving us reaching for a CB we didn’t love.  If you get away with it then it’s a small win, if you lose out then it’s a big loss.  Being that the CB spot was such a big need for us and Mayock (and I once I found out Arnette’s real speed) I’d much rather just land the starter He (and I) in round 1 and then trade  back later in the draft to get some more picks if we want.

my old boss use to say “Don’t F up a wet dream” and that’s what your doing if you trade back and lose out on Arnette and only get penny’s on the dollar in the trade down.  Sometimes it’s best not to be greedy and take the conservative route.

with the picks we had later in the draft we could have traded back enough to get as many 4th/5th round prospects as we wanted.  It’s not like Mayock sacrificed his draft plan by not trading back.

but of course I’d have loved an extra (“free” 4th and 5th).... that’s like a free sample at the store .... it’s house money... you can get some good talent and it feels even better because it was “free”.  There’s a good 10 players I’d love to have added with the trade down picks.

 

btw when I said “garbage” I wasn’t referring to who we could Gabe drafted with the picks in a trade down.... I was referring to the”value” that was out there  for trading down.... teams weren’t offering us 2nd and 3rds to move down... outside of a move with GB that works have netted a 3rd.  Whatever Mayock could have gotten in a trade down was gonna get him ridiculed as the new Reggie, if he took it.  
we could have moved From 12 to 14 for a 4th and 6th.  SF prolly taken Ruggs then though.  Is it worth settling for your second favorite WR and totally changing your game plan for a 4+6? As much as I wanted Lamb, heck no!  You do your evaluations and make a plan and stick to it unless the compensation changes your draft outlook.  A few mid round to late picks doesn’t move the needle.

its easy to say “I’d have traded down and added Player X and Z plus still got Ruggs and Arnette” but Mayocks the one responsible for everything and I respect his conservative approach.

Oh, I quite understand the reasoning behind Mayock taking Arnette straight up and not risking losing out on 'his guy' the old bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush analogy. And I can see an argument could be made for both sides. Really it all comes down to how much you like Arnette and how you view the order of that 'second tier' of CBs........... saying that I only had Okudah head and shoulders above and wouldn't have touched Henderson at all. We'll gave to see how it all plays out and see if ut was in fact a prudent decision. I didn't agree at the time but I hope it proves a great pick now of course!

[Bitty 2.0]

30 minutes ago, oakdb36 said:

Problem is some posters are so full of their own opinions that they can come to a conclusion when no one has even played a down of pro football. It's easy to do because no one will remember when they're wrong but they'll make sure to remind everybody of the times they were right. There's a difference between saying you'd have done something differently and saying this is a bad pick based on nothing but your opinion, which is more often than not influenced by the opinions of others.

It's easy to make picks when there's nothing on the line.

Just imagine you are making a pick with the future of your family at stake. Pressure makes people over think things.

[true2form]

3 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

There’s better out there than that lol.... Nigel bradham slipped a bit but he’s still light years ahead of ray ray.... no offense meant (seriously) but I never expected a raider fan to call for ray ray to get a 2nd run with the team.

Just a tad of sarcasm me thinks!

[G]

Losing Apple made CB a first round NEED or at least the appearance of it. Had Apple been there maybe Falcons trade back thinking Terrell won't get picked by us. Who knows but 'big picture' I prefer to reach on CB Arnette and get FS Randal and CB Prince than to trade down late 1st or 2nd and have CB Apple and CB Johnson,Fulton or Dantzler then maybe that extra pick nets us S Davis. From a 'value' the latter looks better because Davis will be more than a 1 year rental but proven vets probably starting at two positions is hard to pass on. In hindsight Arnette's speed was a problem but really isn't. He probably is a 1st round pick looking at how many CB's went. I didn't think Terrell was worth a 1st but he went and before us.

Being this is our Defense thread I just wanted to throw an 'overall' way to view what went down leading/during and prior to the draft. Looking back NOW I'm happy with the results for our Defense. At the time it seemed a bit 'off' but is working out and I give Mayock credit on that. Apple cost too much and he delt with that which created a 'need' so he drafted for that but used the Apple funds to reinforce even more...Luck, skill, doesn't matter it's maneuvering and that's what he does for our team. 

Edited May 27, 2020 by G

[Bitty 2.0]

I'm pretty sure a lot of the picks the Raiders made were based on if the college had a pro day before everything was shut down. If you can't see them we your own eyes you have to go by the film and the word of people you trust.

 

[Humble_Beast]

Ray Ray back to the Raiders?

[Turnobili]

6 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

I’ll be short cuz I’m racing to work this morning.... so my thoughts may be more scattered then usual

no one said you can’t criticize a specific decision.  But your being disingenuous categorizing what I said as D riding Mayock with the old “Trust in Mayock” rhetoric.  I have people who D ride like that and I’d never do it.  My issue is you just sound like your complaining cuz you didn’t get “your guys” ... maybe your not but that’s how it read to me.

What you did with @MrOaktown_56 was distort what he said figuratively.  You took what he said to an extreme.  You know it and we all know it.

you can dislike Muse at 100, I don’t even love it.  But your argument is Muse is only a STer and that’s not what you spend a 3rd on.  But Mayock sees him As a future starter at LB.  I think it’s more likely your right in the end, but Mayock could get right.  Muse has a great athletic profile for a SAM imo.    He’s taking a risk.  

my issue isn’t with your criticism of the picks but how you went about it.  And that’s my lesser issue. The bigger issue I had was you misconstrueding the reach comment by @MrOaktown_56

I’ll edit this on lunch break.

i fully acknowledged i took is point to the extreme, and that was exactly the point. you keep bringing it up as miscontruing but all i did was extend his reasoning. he said that he laughs at the idea of reaches. i dont agree with that.

[RaidersAreOne]

 

[Darbsk]

11 hours ago, Humble_Beast said:

Ray Ray back to the Raiders?

Why? What does he bring to the party at this point, lack of discipline and his biggest contribution was injuring one of his own players if I recall.........

[jimkelly02]

On 5/27/2020 at 8:31 AM, oakdb36 said:

Problem is some posters are so full of their own opinions that they can come to a conclusion when no one has even played a down of pro football. It's easy to do because no one will remember when they're wrong but they'll make sure to remind everybody of the times they were right. There's a difference between saying you'd have done something differently and saying this is a bad pick based on nothing but your opinion, which is more often than not influenced by the opinions of others.

That’s kinda what I was trying to say.... if your going to challenge the pick I want a better solution then what happened.... and I want something concrete to explain why you think that... or it’s just complaining imo....not to say you can’t complain.  I complain ... but if you do it over and over or go hard then you need to Bavk it up 

[jimkelly02]

17 hours ago, Turnobili said:

i fully acknowledged i took is point to the extreme, and that was exactly the point. you keep bringing it up as miscontruing but all i did was extend his reasoning. he said that he laughs at the idea of reaches. i dont agree with that.

Of course their are reaches.... if we took Hamler at 12/19 even @MrOaktown_56 would call that b a reach.... 

your point is kinda dumb imo,,, and no offense meant... your not on some next level reasoning/discussion... you just removed all context from what he said.

[jimkelly02]

6 hours ago, Darbsk said:

Why? What does he bring to the party at this point, lack of discipline and his biggest contribution was injuring one of his own players if I recall.........

Remember when everyone was high on this guy? For all of 2 mins ... he was such an undisciplined hot mess ... and that seems like 10 years ago... congrats to ray ray for staying in the league... I’d have thought he’d have been on 3 teams in 2 years, minor injury, and out of the league.

[jimkelly02]

20 hours ago, Bitty 2.0 said:

I'm pretty sure a lot of the picks the Raiders made were based on if the college had a pro day before everything was shut down. If you can't see them we your own eyes you have to go by the film and the word of people you trust.

 

Clemson did have a pro day and that may have helped Muse get drafted a little higher than expected by us.