Raiders Defense

[Frankie2Gunz]

11 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

I think some thing that’s not really being talked about enough is the impact of Covid and injuries on this team. Now of course we can say that all 32 teams are effected but when it comes to the Raiders Defense we have to think about the fact that that they had 2 starts over 26 years old and there were a lot of first and second year players that were asked to do a lot without an off-season and it showed in the games when they were out of depth in their coverages.

Those are things that are taught in the off-season(which there wasn’t because of Covid). If you’ve been playing in the same system for years and you’ve been in the league for years it doesn’t affect you like it would someone like Jonathan Abrams or Damon Arnette.  It also affects players that are coming in learning a new system like Cory Littleton. So before we kind of throw out our entire  defense because of how bad they were last year, Let’s take into consideration The reality that it may not be a talent problem

 I thought Paul Gunther was trash and Think that Gus Bradley should be better(for a young defense) A simplified scheme should really help them

With that being said, in terms of talent realistically I think the two things that we actually need is a veteran free safety in FA. Draft another 3T and another edge rusher that’s more of a speed rusher.

 

 

Every year it's the same excuses.  This year it's Gunther, Covid, over complicated schemes....  When the D is bottom three again next season you guys will be calling for Bradley's head and claiming it's his fault.  

@big_palooka Nailed it and I agree that Gunther was an average at best DC but the talent he had to work with was terrible and it starts with the Dline and our embarrassing pass rush.  If this team wants to improve the D it needs to start there and invest a lot more resources into solidifying the line with solid depth. 

It's the trickle down effect that starts when a QB knows he can sit in the pocket and pick apart our D.  It makes the LB's look bad and also the secondary.  No matter who the DC is on this squad, until we can improve our talent, they will look bad, as will their scheme.   

I have been saying for 20 years we need to build up the trenches, like like the Redskins did and now they may have one of the best Dlines in football.  

We need an edge rusher, that is clear and we also need a stud 3T.  I have heard the mention on here of trading MM and a 4th to the Skins for J Allen, I would do that in one second.  I would also take a hard look at S. Rankins as a FA signing.  Even if we were to sign both of those players I would still look at good value come draft day for interior D line.  If someone like Nixon slips to the 2nd or a 5T like Shelvin slips to the 4th, I would pull the trigger.  

Hopefully we can lock up a safety in FA like Marcus Williams.  I would also not be opposed to going CB in the 1st round this year either as I believe that Arnette is nothing more than a #2 but most likely will play NB going forward.  He has shown nothing that warrants his draft position.  Depth in also key!

Trade for Allen (one can dream lol), Sign Williams, Rankins, then draft CB or Edge in the 1st dependent on value, Nixon in the 2nd and Shelvin in the 4th....  That's a lot of resources in the Dline but that is what it will take to turn this squad around, a complete revamping.  

[big_palooka]

54 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

I think some thing that’s not really being talked about enough is the impact of Covid and injuries on this team. Now of course we can say that all 32 teams are effected but when it comes to the Raiders Defense we have to think about the fact that that they had 2 starts over 26 years old and there were a lot of first and second year players that were asked to do a lot without an off-season and it showed in the games when they were out of depth in their coverages.

Those are things that are taught in the off-season(which there wasn’t because of Covid). If you’ve been playing in the same system for years and you’ve been in the league for years it doesn’t affect you like it would someone like Jonathan Abrams or Damon Arnette.  It also affects players that are coming in learning a new system like Cory Littleton. So before we kind of throw out our entire  defense because of how bad they were last year, Let’s take into consideration The reality that it may not be a talent problem

 I thought Paul Gunther was trash and Think that Gus Bradley should be better(for a young defense) A simplified scheme should really help them

With that being said, in terms of talent realistically I think the two things that we actually need is a veteran free safety in FA. Draft another 3T and another edge rusher that’s more of a speed rusher.

 

 

Other teams dealt with the same adversity and yet they excelled.

Herbert is a QB who didn't have an offseason, came in and broke rookie passing records. Jefferson in Minnesota. Robinson was an URFA and stole the show in Jacksonville.  Claypool, Gibson, Wirfs, Chinn, Snead, Winnfield.... list goes on of rookies who came in and dominated for their teams.

ALL teams dealt with Covid, lost players, etc. The winning organizations kept winning. Meanwhile, losing organizations had their HC (Gruden) making the excuse every week in his press conference. 

This fan base after 20 years of mediocrity keeps accepting such weak losing mindsets. And such blind optimism about player development and getting better.

Heading into year 4 of Gruden, the defense needs completely rebuilt because of poor draft picks and FA signings. Rather than call it what it is, fans want to use Guenther, Covid, injuries or the refs as excuses. Someone is always out to get us!!! 

That losing mindset is the reason it's been so hard to change the culture around this team for 20 years.

[big_palooka]

35 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

Every year it's the same excuses.  This year it's Gunther, Covid, over complicated schemes....  When the D is bottom three again next season you guys will be calling for Bradley's head and claiming it's his fault.  

You can already hear it coming... he never changes the defense, it's the same every week. He's not playing to their strengths! 

Agree 100%. DLine has got to be completely rebuilt. It's a passing league and you have to get after the QB. 

[oakdb36]

John Marshall, Chuck Bresnahan, Jason Tarver, Ken Norton Jr, Paul Guenther. I wonder why we criticize our DCs...

I'd say Marshall was pretty good but he was at the twilight of his career.

Anyway, acting like criticizing the coaches is ignoring the other issues is wrong. It's easy to see the motivation behind that though.

[Frankie2Gunz]

43 minutes ago, oakdb36 said:

John Marshall, Chuck Bresnahan, Jason Tarver, Ken Norton Jr, Paul Guenther. I wonder why we criticize our DCs...

I'd say Marshall was pretty good but he was at the twilight of his career.

Anyway, acting like criticizing the coaches is ignoring the other issues is wrong. It's easy to see the motivation behind that though.

You can bring in the greatest DC in the world but if he lacks the talent to implement his game plan it will make any DC look terrible.  

Go back and look at the D talent these coaches had to work with and tell me its their fault. 

If you look at the dumpster fire D rosters these coaches had to work with you will see why they were complete busts.  Once again I'm not saying these are good DC but what I am saying is that it has way more to do with talent than the DC.  Blaming the DC is the easy and lazy excuse and once again look back on the D rosters these guys had to work with.  It's actually sad how embarrassing the level of talent we put on the field YOY.  

Edited February 21, 2021 by Frankie2Gunz

[oakdb36]

1 minute ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

You can bring in the greatest DC in the world but if he lacks the talent to implement his game plan it will make any DC look terrible.  

Go back and look at the D talent these coaches had to work with and tell me its their fault.  If you look at the dumpster fires these coaches had you will see why they were complete busts.  Once again I'm not saying these are good DC but what I am saying is that it has way more to do with talent than the DC.  Blaming the DC is the easy and lazy excuse and once again look back on the D rosters these guys had to work with.  It's actually sad how embarrassing the level of talent we put on the field YOY.  

And that means we can't say they're bad DCs? Because that's how we got to this point in the discussion.

[Jeremy408]

2 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

Every year it's the same excuses.  This year it's Gunther, Covid, over complicated schemes....  When the D is bottom three again next season you guys will be calling for Bradley's head and claiming it's his fault.  

@big_palooka Nailed it and I agree that Gunther was an average at best DC but the talent he had to work with was terrible and it starts with the Dline and our embarrassing pass rush.  If this team wants to improve the D it needs to start there and invest a lot more resources into solidifying the line with solid depth. 

It's the trickle down effect that starts when a QB knows he can sit in the pocket and pick apart our D.  It makes the LB's look bad and also the secondary.  No matter who the DC is on this squad, until we can improve our talent, they will look bad, as will their scheme.   

I have been saying for 20 years we need to build up the trenches, like like the Redskins did and now they may have one of the best Dlines in football.  

We need an edge rusher, that is clear and we also need a stud 3T.  I have heard the mention on here of trading MM and a 4th to the Skins for J Allen, I would do that in one second.  I would also take a hard look at S. Rankins as a FA signing.  Even if we were to sign both of those players I would still look at good value come draft day for interior D line.  If someone like Nixon slips to the 2nd or a 5T like Shelvin slips to the 4th, I would pull the trigger.  

Hopefully we can lock up a safety in FA like Marcus Williams.  I would also not be opposed to going CB in the 1st round this year either as I believe that Arnette is nothing more than a #2 but most likely will play NB going forward.  He has shown nothing that warrants his draft position.  Depth in also key!

Trade for Allen (one can dream lol), Sign Williams, Rankins, then draft CB or Edge in the 1st dependent on value, Nixon in the 2nd and Shelvin in the 4th....  That's a lot of resources in the Dline but that is what it will take to turn this squad around, a complete revamping.  

But see that's my point: What happens when we don't make the playoffs(Like usual) We have the tendency to throw the baby out with the bathwater. For example: The idea of drafting a corner when we drafted Arnette last year who Played like 7 games because of a hand injury, Covid and 2 concussions) doesn't make much sense at this point. I dont even think it make sense to say that replacing a first round pick after one year at any position makes sense. Think about where Kolton Miller would be right now if we did that.

Rankins seems like one of those guys that gets overpaid by us and then a year later were all talking about how we never get any talent. I like the Nixon and Shelvin idea though.

With edge I think if were going to get an edge we should draft an edge not sign an edge. There are some really good ones in the draft and we don't really have the cap space. The only DL worth throwing money at in FA is Leonard Williams. 

I agree with Pursuing Marcus Williams or some veteran FA makes complete sense. 

[ronjon1990]

2 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Other teams dealt with the same adversity and yet they excelled.

Herbert is a QB who didn't have an offseason, came in and broke rookie passing records. Jefferson in Minnesota. Robinson was an URFA and stole the show in Jacksonville.  Claypool, Gibson, Wirfs, Chinn, Snead, Winnfield.... list goes on of rookies who came in and dominated for their teams.

ALL teams dealt with Covid, lost players, etc. The winning organizations kept winning. Meanwhile, losing organizations had their HC (Gruden) making the excuse every week in his press conference. 

This fan base after 20 years of mediocrity keeps accepting such weak losing mindsets. And such blind optimism about player development and getting better.

Heading into year 4 of Gruden, the defense needs completely rebuilt because of poor draft picks and FA signings. Rather than call it what it is, fans want to use Guenther, Covid, injuries or the refs as excuses. Someone is always out to get us!!! 

That losing mindset is the reason it's been so hard to change the culture around this team for 20 years.

I'm hesitant to anoint 2020 rookies too richly, myself. Did the lack of offseason allow some guys to excel just based on raw talent? Were some guys put in ideal spots that allowed their strengths to get amplified? Will they come back down to earth? 

And still, you're not wrong at all. Some guys did absolutely fabulous jobs. Many teams did. Some better than others. But more importantly, most better than us. Whether it was rookies underwhelming or numerous players at risk of missing time because we have a bunch of "rules are for fools" rebels going off and doing their own thing, we SUCKED at handling the Covid stuff. That's not an individual issue, that's a team culture issue. 

I think Guenther sucked, and I felt his resume indicated as much. Many times, I questioned the situational defensive play calling because it was nonsensical. And there were a lot of broken parts that it seems he didn't even attempt to address (ie: playing Leavitt at S instead of Joyner when we clearly needed one and slotting someone else in at NCB). 

But our talent sucks too. Those of us who live in reality understand this. I'm glad you pointed out the blind optimism of player development. It drives me nuts when I hear "He'll just get better." every time we have someone underwhelming as if the Madden player progression button applied to real life. 

Will Ruggs or Edwards or Ferrell or Abram or Arnette get better? Maybe. But they also might not. Busts happen. Glass ceilings get hit and keep guys from reaching their theoretical "potential". Jamarcus Russell had "potential". Darren McFadden was supposed to revolutionize the RB position. DHB had "raw traits you couldn't coach". The list goes on and on. Player progression isn't guaranteed and why I'm totally fine replacing Ferrell or Crosby or both right now. One hasn't really gotten much better and the other seems to be what he is.

Our FA signings suck. Our drafting sucks. Our coaching sucks. Sure, there's a diamond in the rough here or there, but overall it sucks. No excuses needed because those suck too. 

Last summer, Mayock's defenders were out in force citing Crosby, Ferrell, Mullen, Jacobs as proof that he drafts well. Every one of them seemingly regressed this year. At Mayock's rate of hits in the draft and FA, we'll be rebuilding until 2027 and that assumes we manage to keep every single one of the "hits" he's actually had. Translation: we have to be better than this.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I saw more from this team when JDR was the coach and we had one of the most geriatric rosters in the league. Apologists can cite age and longevity all they want, it was a better team than we have now. We're a misguided hype train, not an improving team. JDR was far from perfect. McKenzie was far from perfect. But with JDR, I felt like we had a direction and roadmap to get somewhere as players left and new ones came in. With Gruden, I feel like he wanted to build from the ground up and expected immediate success like he always found through someone else's work. And Mayock....he's just not good at his job. He isn't. Both of his drafts have been vision-less. Screw up picks that would have other fanbases furious. Leaving obvious talent on the board for shiny projects from his favorite school. 

No wonder Agholor was supposedly less than happy. If I came from a successful college program to a mostly successful NFL franchise, I'd be disgusted by the Raiders apathy towards losing too. Our playcalling and Gruden''s lack of balls were painfully obvious. We SHOULD have won 10 games and made the playoffs. But Gruden decided to Lorena Bobbitt our offense enough times that it became a running joke to kick FGs. 

I need a drink. 

[Frankie2Gunz]

1 hour ago, Jeremy408 said:

But see that's my point: What happens when we don't make the playoffs(Like usual) We have the tendency to throw the baby out with the bathwater. For example: The idea of drafting a corner when we drafted Arnette last year who Played like 7 games because of a hand injury, Covid and 2 concussions) doesn't make much sense at this point. I dont even think it make sense to say that replacing a first round pick after one year at any position makes sense. Think about where Kolton Miller would be right now if we did that.

Rankins seems like one of those guys that gets overpaid by us and then a year later were all talking about how we never get any talent. I like the Nixon and Shelvin idea though.

With edge I think if were going to get an edge we should draft an edge not sign an edge. There are some really good ones in the draft and we don't really have the cap space. The only DL worth throwing money at in FA is Leonard Williams. 

I agree with Pursuing Marcus Williams or some veteran FA makes complete sense. 

Regardless of where Arnette was drafted he will never be more than an adequate number 2 CB, I am confidant that pick was a panic pick/ reach by Mayock and Gruden.  Mullins has shown that he is the superior player and is a solid number 2 CB.  This team is lacking an elite, shutdown #1 CB and if one of them slips to us in this years draft and appears to be a lockdown #1, it would be insane to pass on them, that is unless we see a similar caliber player as an edge rusher.  

I am not saying we break the bank for Rankins but what I am saying is something along the lines of 2 years at 5 or 6 million per year.  The risk reward at that price point is well worth it and worst case he is a rotational/ depth piece at a position that has been lacking talent for 20 years.  Rankins is 26, a former 1st round pick who has proven he can get after the QB in the NFL.  Even if we sign Rankins I would not be opposed to the Nixon/ Shelvin combo.  That would give us a stout DL with depth and upside to get after the QB.  3T (Rankins, Nixon and Hurst) 5T (Hankins/Shelvin).  

I agree that we need to draft an Edge early in the draft.  The only Edge rusher I would look at is Carl Lawson who is still young and wont break the bank.  If we could land him at say around 8 million per season that would be well worth it.  Yannik will command in the area of 20 million, that is a hard pass at that price point.  

Marcus WIlliams would be another player Mayock should target.  

Landing Williams, Rankins and Lawson in FA, drafting a CB or another Edge in the 1st, Nixon in the 2nd, LB in the 3rd and Shelvin in the 4th could change this D around. 

I also think that we need to move on from all of our RB's outside of Jacobs.  I pointed out that signing Ingram to a 1 year deal would be smart and then drafting a pass catching back with some speed would also be prudent.  

[Humble_Beast]

4 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

Every year it's the same excuses.  This year it's Gunther, Covid, over complicated schemes....  When the D is bottom three again next season you guys will be calling for Bradley's head and claiming it's his fault.  

@big_palooka Nailed it and I agree that Gunther was an average at best DC but the talent he had to work with was terrible and it starts with the Dline and our embarrassing pass rush.  If this team wants to improve the D it needs to start there and invest a lot more resources into solidifying the line with solid depth. 

It's the trickle down effect that starts when a QB knows he can sit in the pocket and pick apart our D.  It makes the LB's look bad and also the secondary.  No matter who the DC is on this squad, until we can improve our talent, they will look bad, as will their scheme.   

I have been saying for 20 years we need to build up the trenches, like like the Redskins did and now they may have one of the best Dlines in football.  

We need an edge rusher, that is clear and we also need a stud 3T.  I have heard the mention on here of trading MM and a 4th to the Skins for J Allen, I would do that in one second.  I would also take a hard look at S. Rankins as a FA signing.  Even if we were to sign both of those players I would still look at good value come draft day for interior D line.  If someone like Nixon slips to the 2nd or a 5T like Shelvin slips to the 4th, I would pull the trigger.  

Hopefully we can lock up a safety in FA like Marcus Williams.  I would also not be opposed to going CB in the 1st round this year either as I believe that Arnette is nothing more than a #2 but most likely will play NB going forward.  He has shown nothing that warrants his draft position.  Depth in also key!

Trade for Allen (one can dream lol), Sign Williams, Rankins, then draft CB or Edge in the 1st dependent on value, Nixon in the 2nd and Shelvin in the 4th....  That's a lot of resources in the Dline but that is what it will take to turn this squad around, a complete revamping.  

everyone around the league wants Leonard Williams. it's going be hard to sign him, and he probably gets OVERPAID. 

 

I hope we are able to land Yannick Ngakoue: He's the perfect compliment to Ferrell. Ferrell plays the early down run plays 1-2 and Yannick used as a situational pass rush DE. We always been linked to Yannick, maybe thought we were going trade that 19th pick for him. He has ties to Gus Bradley too.

Edited February 21, 2021 by Humble_Beast

[Frankie2Gunz]

29 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

I'm hesitant to anoint 2020 rookies too richly, myself. Did the lack of offseason allow some guys to excel just based on raw talent? Were some guys put in ideal spots that allowed their strengths to get amplified? Will they come back down to earth? 

And still, you're not wrong at all. Some guys did absolutely fabulous jobs. Many teams did. Some better than others. But more importantly, most better than us. Whether it was rookies underwhelming or numerous players at risk of missing time because we have a bunch of "rules are for fools" rebels going off and doing their own thing, we SUCKED at handling the Covid stuff. That's not an individual issue, that's a team culture issue. 

I think Guenther sucked, and I felt his resume indicated as much. Many times, I questioned the situational defensive play calling because it was nonsensical. And there were a lot of broken parts that it seems he didn't even attempt to address (ie: playing Leavitt at S instead of Joyner when we clearly needed one and slotting someone else in at NCB). 

But our talent sucks too. Those of us who live in reality understand this. I'm glad you pointed out the blind optimism of player development. It drives me nuts when I hear "He'll just get better." every time we have someone underwhelming as if the Madden player progression button applied to real life. 

Will Ruggs or Edwards or Ferrell or Abram or Arnette get better? Maybe. But they also might not. Busts happen. Glass ceilings get hit and keep guys from reaching their theoretical "potential". Jamarcus Russell had "potential". Darren McFadden was supposed to revolutionize the RB position. DHB had "raw traits you couldn't coach". The list goes on and on. Player progression isn't guaranteed and why I'm totally fine replacing Ferrell or Crosby or both right now. One hasn't really gotten much better and the other seems to be what he is.

Our FA signings suck. Our drafting sucks. Our coaching sucks. Sure, there's a diamond in the rough here or there, but overall it sucks. No excuses needed because those suck too. 

Last summer, Mayock's defenders were out in force citing Crosby, Ferrell, Mullen, Jacobs as proof that he drafts well. Every one of them seemingly regressed this year. At Mayock's rate of hits in the draft and FA, we'll be rebuilding until 2027 and that assumes we manage to keep every single one of the "hits" he's actually had. Translation: we have to be better than this.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I saw more from this team when JDR was the coach and we had one of the most geriatric rosters in the league. Apologists can cite age and longevity all they want, it was a better team than we have now. We're a misguided hype train, not an improving team. JDR was far from perfect. McKenzie was far from perfect. But with JDR, I felt like we had a direction and roadmap to get somewhere as players left and new ones came in. With Gruden, I feel like he wanted to build from the ground up and expected immediate success like he always found through someone else's work. And Mayock....he's just not good at his job. He isn't. Both of his drafts have been vision-less. Screw up picks that would have other fanbases furious. Leaving obvious talent on the board for shiny projects from his favorite school. 

No wonder Agholor was supposedly less than happy. If I came from a successful college program to a mostly successful NFL franchise, I'd be disgusted by the Raiders apathy towards losing too. Our playcalling and Gruden''s lack of balls were painfully obvious. We SHOULD have won 10 games and made the playoffs. But Gruden decided to Lorena Bobbitt our offense enough times that it became a running joke to kick FGs. 

I need a drink. 

100 percent spot on.  It also is very apparent that Gruden rules with an iron fist.  I am just fearful that he is controlling what Mayock does and will ultimately make him the fall guy if things continue to go badly.  Mayock was a TV talking head stooge that most likely never would have become an NFL GM if not for Gruden but we all know Gruden is an ego maniac and will rarely accept blame.  

I am still scratching my head about the Arnette pick.  That was completely out of left field and was a complete panic pick when AJ Terrell went off the board.  That seemed like a Gruden pick to me, where he was lazar focused on Terrell, was very confidant that he would be there during the whole draft process and wanted a CB at 19 no matter what.  There is a chance that they went BPA at 19 but I find it hard to believe that Arnette was the highest rated player on their board.  If he was both Mayock and Gruden need to have their heads examined.

[Frankie2Gunz]

1 minute ago, Humble_Beast said:

everyone around the league wants Leonard Williams. it's going be hard to sign him, and he probably gets under paid. 

 

I hope we are able to land Yannick Ngakoue: He's the perfect compliment to Ferrell. Ferrell plays the early down run plays 1-2 and Yannick used as a situational pass rush DE. We always been linked to Yannick, maybe thought we were going trade that 19th pick for him. He has ties to Gus Bradley too.

Williams will not hit the FA market and Yannick will command around 20 per season.  People fall in love with the sexy names but they rarely pan out and the risk reward at 20 per season is too rich for my tastes.  I would pass on YN at 20 per season.  There is better value out there such as Lawson at 8 million per year than YN at 20.

[NYRaider]

4 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Herbert is a QB who didn't have an offseason, came in and broke rookie passing records. Jefferson in Minnesota. Robinson was an URFA and stole the show in Jacksonville. 

The Chargers went 7-9, the Vikings went 7-9, and the Jaguars went 1-15. 

[NYRaider]

7 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

Williams will not hit the FA market and Yannick will command around 20 per season.  People fall in love with the sexy names but they rarely pan out and the risk reward at 20 per season is too rich for my tastes.  I would pass on YN at 20 per season.  There is better value out there such as Lawson at 8 million per year than YN at 20.

Yannick would scare the hell out of me. The Jaguars, Vikings, and Ravens were all willing to part ways with him for pennies on the dollar in 1 season. 

[NYRaider]

11 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

I am still scratching my head about the Arnette pick.  That was completely out of left field and was a complete panic pick when AJ Terrell went off the board.  

The second time we've done that in 2 drafts under Gruden and Mayock. Panicked and reached on Ferrell at #4 and panicked and reached on Arnette at #19.