roi34 Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 14 hours ago, Jerry said: I dont think there is a top 15 FS, but the group of them are all pretty stellar. I think 2-3 really solid FSs this draft. that's why I'd rather fix it with proven talent in FA. tired of having meh safeties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 7 minutes ago, roi34 said: that's why I'd rather fix it with proven talent in FA. tired of having meh safeties Yeah I'd rather invest into young proven talent like Marcus Williams or JJ3 then draft a safety early. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 5 hours ago, big_palooka said: According to Vic Tafur, Littleton was a bit of an afterthought when they missed on Byron Jones: I read someplace else I can't find, that when they spoke to Guenther about Littleton, his response was luke warm as if he wasn't overly excited about the player. Seems it was a bad fit for his scheme from the jump. Long term I'd rather pay littleton 12 mil than Jones 16-17. Guenther put him in poor positions to make plays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronjon1990 Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 24 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said: Long term I'd rather pay littleton 12 mil than Jones 16-17. Guenther put him in poor positions to make plays. Long term I'd rather pay Littleton 16-17 mil than ever hear the words "Guenther" and "scheme fit" in the same sentence ever again. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 1 hour ago, ronjon1990 said: Long term I'd rather pay Littleton 16-17 mil than ever hear the words "Guenther" and "scheme fit" in the same sentence ever again. If we could just stop talking about Guenther, that would be great. He's up there with J. Russell and Rolando McClain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_palooka Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 Hating on Guenther is so much easier than admitting the Raiders suck at drafting defense. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronjon1990 Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 1 hour ago, Jerry said: If we could just stop talking about Guenther, that would be great. He's up there with J. Russell and Rolando McClain. No love for Derrick Gibson? Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
101Raider Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 I’d love to get a vet Safety, but if we miss out, really like Jevon Holland in the 2nd... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, big_palooka said: Hating on Guenther is so much easier than admitting the Raiders suck at drafting defense. I don't know man, Guenther had 3 years to make things better, and they just got worse. I don't know how you can't blame a coordinator when he can't even move us from 30th to at least around the 25 range. There was just no improvement made at all. None. Mullen regressed, Kwit played okay, Littleton is now being talked about as a garbage can after he was literally an All Pro/Pro Bowl caliber LB for the Rams. M. Collins got thrown around like a rag doll. We couldn't set the edges to save our lives on the DL. I mean it was just so ugly watching our defense play. I'm good man, Guenther sucks. I truly believe that. I think the Vikings HC is just giving him the "ol' buddy" hookup. If he didn't go there, he'd probably still be jobless. Edited February 19, 2021 by Jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_palooka Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 22 minutes ago, Jerry said: I don't know man, Guenther had 3 years to make things better, and they just got worse. I don't know how you can't blame a coordinator when he can't even move us from 30th to at least around the 25 range. There was just no improvement made at all. None. Mullen regressed, Kwit played okay, Littleton is now being talked about as a garbage can after he was literally an All Pro/Pro Bowl caliber LB for the Rams. M. Collins got thrown around like a rag doll. We couldn't set the edges to save our lives on the DL. I mean it was just so ugly watching our defense play. I'm good man, Guenther sucks. I truly believe that. I think the Vikings HC is just giving him the "ol' buddy" hookup. If he didn't go there, he'd probably still be jobless. Guenther's 4 years with the Bengals ranked his defense ranked 12, 2, 8, 16 in scoring. He had talent on every level of his defense. 3 years with the Raiders. They traded their franchise player on defense. He had constant turnover on all units. A lot of young, inexperienced players. Rookies expected to fill major roles. Or worse, vets with nothing left. It was a complete disaster in draft and talent acquisitions on defense. He manned a defense on a team that spent all their money on their coaches offense. Guenther was a highly regarded defensive coach when he was hired. Yes, he deserves some of the blame... but the talent he was afforded was laughably terrible. No coach would have found success in his situation. Hating on him is a scapegoat for the real problems that plague this team. They SUCK in the draft and have for decades. Name a defensive player drafted worth a damn in 20 years not named Mack or Asomugha? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 1 hour ago, big_palooka said: Guenther's 4 years with the Bengals ranked his defense ranked 12, 2, 8, 16 in scoring. He had talent on every level of his defense. 3 years with the Raiders. They traded their franchise player on defense. He had constant turnover on all units. A lot of young, inexperienced players. Rookies expected to fill major roles. Or worse, vets with nothing left. It was a complete disaster in draft and talent acquisitions on defense. He manned a defense on a team that spent all their money on their coaches offense. Guenther was a highly regarded defensive coach when he was hired. Yes, he deserves some of the blame... but the talent he was afforded was laughably terrible. No coach would have found success in his situation. Hating on him is a scapegoat for the real problems that plague this team. They SUCK in the draft and have for decades. Name a defensive player drafted worth a damn in 20 years not named Mack or Asomugha? I like how you took the 2 best players out lol...But hey, can't blame Gruden for 20 years of mediocrity. Can't blame Mayock either. You can only blame them for 2-3 years of average drafting. Not stellar, not terrible, but average IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfrey13 Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 6 hours ago, big_palooka said: Guenther's 4 years with the Bengals ranked his defense ranked 12, 2, 8, 16 in scoring. He had talent on every level of his defense. 3 years with the Raiders. They traded their franchise player on defense. He had constant turnover on all units. A lot of young, inexperienced players. Rookies expected to fill major roles. Or worse, vets with nothing left. It was a complete disaster in draft and talent acquisitions on defense. He manned a defense on a team that spent all their money on their coaches offense. Guenther was a highly regarded defensive coach when he was hired. Yes, he deserves some of the blame... but the talent he was afforded was laughably terrible. No coach would have found success in his situation. Hating on him is a scapegoat for the real problems that plague this team. They SUCK in the draft and have for decades. Name a defensive player drafted worth a damn in 20 years not named Mack or Asomugha? Guenther had a ready made defense handed to him and when he came to the Raiders he showed he could not build a defense or teach the players. Gruden said he could teach coaches but he lacked the ability to teach players. The guy could be a football genius but being the smartest does not always make you the best. When he took over in Cinci they had a bunch of vets in their prime that knew what they were suppose to do. I am not saying he can not come up with a good game plan but he has struggled to translate what ever talents he has to production on the field. You can say he had no talent but some players looked better after he left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_palooka Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 14 hours ago, Jerry said: I like how you took the 2 best players out lol...But hey, can't blame Gruden for 20 years of mediocrity. Can't blame Mayock either. You can only blame them for 2-3 years of average drafting. Not stellar, not terrible, but average IMO. What 2 best players were taken out? Average? Look at the defensive players drafted in the first 3 rounds under Gruden - PJ Hall, Key, Ferrell, Abram, Mullen, Arnette, Muse. This group has had zero impact and most look like one and done contract guys. This is in fact terrible and the reason this team is failing Gruden the GM botched every pick made defensively thus far including the #4 overall selection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_palooka Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 8 hours ago, drfrey13 said: Guenther had a ready made defense handed to him and when he came to the Raiders he showed he could not build a defense or teach the players. Gruden said he could teach coaches but he lacked the ability to teach players. The guy could be a football genius but being the smartest does not always make you the best. When he took over in Cinci they had a bunch of vets in their prime that knew what they were suppose to do. I am not saying he can not come up with a good game plan but he has struggled to translate what ever talents he has to production on the field. You can say he had no talent but some players looked better after he left. Kind of my point. You have to have talent. No coach could have done anything with what is an absolutely terrible group of defensive talent. A good coach can elevate a B+ player to an A player. But you can't elevate a bunch of D and C players into B players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 1 hour ago, big_palooka said: What 2 best players were taken out? Average? Look at the defensive players drafted in the first 3 rounds under Gruden - PJ Hall, Key, Ferrell, Abram, Mullen, Arnette, Muse. This group has had zero impact and most look like one and done contract guys. This is in fact terrible and the reason this team is failing Gruden the GM botched every pick made defensively thus far including the #4 overall selection. Asomugha and Mack. Anyway. You're looking at the defense only. And Crosby in the 4th is a steal whether anyone agrees or not. 17 sacks lead his class from what I can recall. Then Moreau, Renfrow, Jacobs, K. Miller, T. Mullen was a good pick IMO. I think they're pretty decent drafts. Didn't get the production we wanted from our last draft class but it was only year one. Again, you're already counting out this last draft class and the class before it for the most part. I still intend to give them time to develop. Especially the players on defense. If they are still scrubs this upcoming season and next or Bradley benches all of them, then I'll agree with you. But I'd rather play the waiting game then just crap on them and throw them in the trash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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