Raiders Defense

[Jeremy408]

42 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

LOL You have no idea what I am basing my evaluation on, so I will tell you.  

One is my eye ball test, the same eye ball test that said Tua was no where near elite when nearly every other person was putting a yellow jacket on the guy before he took an NFL snap.  I have a keen eye for talent and football talent when I decide to put the time in to research a player. There are outside factors that I am not privy to but for the most part my takes are nearly spot on when I do the research.  

Two is like I said in my earlier post, Arnette has lacks eilte athletic ability, speed and ball skills.  He has done nothing at an elite level in college or in the pros and had one above average season in his college career.  He is also 25 years old and if he was going to show elite skills in any of these areas if would have come through at this point.  

What I am saying is that he will never be a lockdown #1 CB, which is what your strive for when selecting a CB in the top 20.  Arnette has one year of above average play throughout his colligate and professional career and is going to be 25 at the start of next season. 

Do you care to explain how what I am saying is not correct and what is your evaluation of Arnette?  I hope you're not another one of these homers who think he's a great player just because he wears a Raider uniform.  

I’m glad you watch film (which most raiders fans don’t)

Here’s a thing all the things you’re mentioning out in the last three or four responses you did not mention any of this except for maybe he’s 40 time. 
 

I don’t disagree about his age or about the fact that he’s only had one good year. But again there are things I think are being ignored:

1. I never said that he would be this great shut down corner that you keep claiming I said he would be. I simply said no one can say that now after seven games of a rookie year with no off-season. 

2. Here’s the problem about the whole athletic ability thing there are plenty of corners that have been all pros with lower 40 times and overall measurable‘s that of been really good players and some become #1 corners. This is because athletic ability isn’t the main trait that makes a corner or any DB for that matter good(although it definitely helps)A key to being a great corner is actually foot work the ability to flip your hips in an instant and then there’s skills like getting your head around. 

3. You’re asking me what I see in him personally? Before the draft I evaluated corners myself as I do every position the Raiders need every year since I was in sixth grade. To give a quick background I played corner of my whole life so I have a special eye for what makes a corner really good in particular. I was also very fast as I NCAA ran track all the way through college so I also know a lot about athletic measurables in general. But talking specifically about Damon Arnett some thing that always stands out to me is what they’re able to do in man coverage(which is why one on ones are so important when evaluating corners in the senior bowl). This matters because other coverages like zone can usually be taught depending on the coach. But the ability to play man requires natural traits. 

With that being said pff(which I’m generally not a fan of for a number of reasons) put out an article last year before the draft that calculated passer rating against and completion rating against And did a top 10 cornerbacks ranking in different coverages. Damon Arnette had the lowest completion percentage and gave up the second least receptions(which is impressive given the fact that he had 11 more targets than the and the guy who had the least amount). These are categories that matter. Here’s my reference for that:

https://www.pff.com/news/draft-2020-nfl-draft-top-10-cornerbacks-by-coverage-situation

Something that can be argued is that he played in the big 10. The problem with that argument is that Ohio State played Clemson where he covered both T Higgins(i’m sure you saw what he did this year) and Justyn Ross(Who would probably be a first round pick at the very least if not for the injury) with Trevor Lawrence(The number one overall pick in this year‘s draft) throwing the ball. In the game he had to pass break ups and gave up three catches for about 30 yards if that With the negatives being that he gives up a first down for 15 yards and commits a pass interference on a 5 yard slant. Here’s the reference for that:

 

When you look at his 2019 year in conjunction with this tape he definitely shows that there is an ability to be a shut down corner. Here is every target from his 2019 year.

here you’ll see excellent footwork Elite ability to transition out of his brakes and to look for the ball and break it up. In all of the man coverage place even the place where the receiver catch the ball You see sticky coverage . That transcends how fast a player runs their 40 time(and i’m saying that as someone who ran 4.3 in his heyday). When you mention ball skills you have to also mention that he wore a cast the entire 2019 season making it an unfair evaluation to say that he doesn’t have ball skills(although he did pick off a pass and take it to the house) 

So when you ask me what I see and Damon Arnette that would be my evaluation. 
 

so yeah no I’m not some home or they get excited about every person that they draft or every decision that they make. When they do make a decision that I don’t agree with I’ll say it and acknowledge it. Trust me I don’t like when raider fans that don’t watch film act like certain players are superstars are going to be superstars also. What I won’t do is judge a players NFL career off of seven games just because he’s 25 years old, didn’t run 4.4 at the combine. 

 I also figured it would be worth noting that I actually enjoy watching film in general not just who the raiders get.

 

 

[big_palooka]

 

19 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I saw more from this team when JDR was the coach and we had one of the most geriatric rosters in the league. Apologists can cite age and longevity all they want, it was a better team than we have now. We're a misguided hype train, not an improving team. JDR was far from perfect. McKenzie was far from perfect. But with JDR, I felt like we had a direction and roadmap to get somewhere as players left and new ones came in. With Gruden, I feel like he wanted to build from the ground up and expected immediate success like he always found through someone else's work. And Mayock....he's just not good at his job. He isn't. Both of his drafts have been vision-less. Screw up picks that would have other fanbases furious. Leaving obvious talent on the board for shiny projects from his favorite school. 

Great post overall. I agree completely. The thing I respected about JDR is he played to win. That 2016 season started when he went balls out against the Saints to win. Those plays resonate with a team. It empowers them to feel trusted. Contrast with Gruden's conservative playing not loose style that frequently backfires. 

Mayock.. I'm still feeling this out. I think Gruden is driving the draft in the end. Stories how Mayock loved Lamb and they end up taking Ruggs tells me it's more Gruden.

Gruden has autonomy only Belichick and Carrol have over his roster. That's proving to be a problem, but we all knew that going in. 

[big_palooka]

18 hours ago, Humble_Beast said:

everyone around the league wants Leonard Williams. it's going be hard to sign him, and he probably gets OVERPAID. 

 

I hope we are able to land Yannick Ngakoue: He's the perfect compliment to Ferrell. Ferrell plays the early down run plays 1-2 and Yannick used as a situational pass rush DE. We always been linked to Yannick, maybe thought we were going trade that 19th pick for him. He has ties to Gus Bradley too.

It doesn't concern you that Ngakoue did next to nothing Minnesota and Baltimore? Seems a little high risk to me

[oakdb36]

He had 8 sacks, just like he did in 2019. How does that equate to next to nothing?

[Frankie2Gunz]

8 hours ago, Jeremy408 said:

I’m glad you watch film (which most raiders fans don’t)

Here’s a thing all the things you’re mentioning out in the last three or four responses you did not mention any of this except for maybe he’s 40 time. 
 

I don’t disagree about his age or about the fact that he’s only had one good year. But again there are things I think are being ignored:

1. I never said that he would be this great shut down corner that you keep claiming I said he would be. I simply said no one can say that now after seven games of a rookie year with no off-season. 

2. Here’s the problem about the whole athletic ability thing there are plenty of corners that have been all pros with lower 40 times and overall measurable‘s that of been really good players and some become #1 corners. This is because athletic ability isn’t the main trait that makes a corner or any DB for that matter good(although it definitely helps)A key to being a great corner is actually foot work the ability to flip your hips in an instant and then there’s skills like getting your head around. 

3. You’re asking me what I see in him personally? Before the draft I evaluated corners myself as I do every position the Raiders need every year since I was in sixth grade. To give a quick background I played corner of my whole life so I have a special eye for what makes a corner really good in particular. I was also very fast as I NCAA ran track all the way through college so I also know a lot about athletic measurables in general. But talking specifically about Damon Arnett some thing that always stands out to me is what they’re able to do in man coverage(which is why one on ones are so important when evaluating corners in the senior bowl). This matters because other coverages like zone can usually be taught depending on the coach. But the ability to play man requires natural traits. 

With that being said pff(which I’m generally not a fan of for a number of reasons) put out an article last year before the draft that calculated passer rating against and completion rating against And did a top 10 cornerbacks ranking in different coverages. Damon Arnette had the lowest completion percentage and gave up the second least receptions(which is impressive given the fact that he had 11 more targets than the and the guy who had the least amount). These are categories that matter. Here’s my reference for that:

https://www.pff.com/news/draft-2020-nfl-draft-top-10-cornerbacks-by-coverage-situation

Something that can be argued is that he played in the big 10. The problem with that argument is that Ohio State played Clemson where he covered both T Higgins(i’m sure you saw what he did this year) and Justyn Ross(Who would probably be a first round pick at the very least if not for the injury) with Trevor Lawrence(The number one overall pick in this year‘s draft) throwing the ball. In the game he had to pass break ups and gave up three catches for about 30 yards if that With the negatives being that he gives up a first down for 15 yards and commits a pass interference on a 5 yard slant. Here’s the reference for that:

 

When you look at his 2019 year in conjunction with this tape he definitely shows that there is an ability to be a shut down corner. Here is every target from his 2019 year.

here you’ll see excellent footwork Elite ability to transition out of his brakes and to look for the ball and break it up. In all of the man coverage place even the place where the receiver catch the ball You see sticky coverage . That transcends how fast a player runs their 40 time(and i’m saying that as someone who ran 4.3 in his heyday). When you mention ball skills you have to also mention that he wore a cast the entire 2019 season making it an unfair evaluation to say that he doesn’t have ball skills(although he did pick off a pass and take it to the house) 

So when you ask me what I see and Damon Arnette that would be my evaluation. 
 

so yeah no I’m not some home or they get excited about every person that they draft or every decision that they make. When they do make a decision that I don’t agree with I’ll say it and acknowledge it. Trust me I don’t like when raider fans that don’t watch film act like certain players are superstars are going to be superstars also. What I won’t do is judge a players NFL career off of seven games just because he’s 25 years old, didn’t run 4.4 at the combine. 

 I also figured it would be worth noting that I actually enjoy watching film in general not just who the raiders get.

 

 

Well thought out post and well said.  

I'm not saying that what I am saying is 100 percent fact, as I hope I am wrong and Arnette turns out to be a lockdown stud, I just find it highly unlikely.  You bring up some good points but are also cherry picking stats.  He did play well in man coverage his senior season which is most likely why he was picked in the first round but as you point out he played in the Big 10 where 99 percent of the players he shut down are no where near NFL talent.  He also was lining up, the majority of the time against those Big 10 teams #2 WR as Okudah was on the number #1's.  

Things that are not subjective are his age, which is going to be 25 at the beginning of next season (his window to show that he is an elite shutdown #1 is closing as if he can't show it next year it will never happen), his speed (4.56 at the combine, I've heard the excuses but let's just say he lacks elite speed) which is no where near elite, his arm length (30 inches) which is in the bottom tier and has shown one year of success out of 5 (4 collegiate and 1 NFL) and that was against Big 10 number 2 WR's.  

All of those factors and what he showed in man coverage last year against NFL talent as our #2 CB (32 targets and 26 receptions allowed), I feel confidant that he will never be a lockdown number 1, which is what I fully expect when selecting a CB in the top 20.  He doesn't match up well with the Tyreek Hill's of the NFL as his lack of speed/ quickness will be a disaster when Hill gets by him and he also doesn't physically match up well with the big, tall, fast and precise route runners like Julio Jones.  

Hopefully he can turn in to a solid number 2 but once again I am very skeptical.  He has a place on this team but neither he nor Mullin are the lockdown #1 this team has been lacking.  There are some CB's in this years draft that could be that lockdown #1 we have been looking for and that is why I would not be opposed to selecting one of them at 17 if we feel that CB can be a shutdown 1.  

I liked your post and I hope to hear more of your takes on things as it sounds like you know your stuff and are well thought out.  

Edited February 22, 2021 by Frankie2Gunz

[agarcia34]

Yannick had a good start to the season with the Vikings 5 sacks in 5 games. I would like that level of nothing with my team. I think he struggled with the transition of him playing OLB standing up with the Ravens. 
 

He wouldn’t be standing up with Gus Bradley so there would be no worry with me cause he would be playing with his hand in the dirt his more natural position 

Edited February 22, 2021 by agarcia34

[oakdb36]

Just now, agarcia34 said:

Yannick had a good start to the season with the Vikings 5 sacks. I think he struggled with the transition of him playing OLB standing up with the Ravens. 
 

He wouldn’t be standing up with Gus Bradley so there would be no worry with me cause he would be playing with his hand in the dirt his more natural position 

Yes, there wouldn't be any fit issue there since he was drafted by Jax when Bradley was the HC. I don't think he goes for 20/Y either, my guess is 15.

[big_palooka]

58 minutes ago, oakdb36 said:

He had 8 sacks, just like he did in 2019. How does that equate to next to nothing?

I stand corrected. I read an article somewhere mid season that he wasn't playing much in Baltimore. What was the reasoning the Vikings bought high and sold low on him after 5 games?

 

[ronjon1990]

13 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

I stand corrected. I read an article somewhere mid season that he wasn't playing much in Baltimore. What was the reasoning the Vikings bought high and sold low on him after 5 games?

 

I wouldn't say they bought particularly high nor sold particularly low (2nd and conditional 5th to get him, a 3rd and conditional 5th to move him) to be fair. It's not the 1sts I saw some fans wanting to give up for him at times at the very least. 

What DOES concern me is Minnesota wanting to/being willing to get rid of him so quickly. His stats look ok for the short stretch there. Why move him at all? It's not like Minnesota couldn't have used all the healthy bodies they could get last year. 

I think the guy could be a bit of a malcontent headcase. Got pissed in Jacksonville and wanted a trade. Got into a Twitter pissing match with Tony Khan. Finally gets traded and lasts a handful of games before being traded again. Seems to me that going from Jacksonville to Minneapolis to Baltimore is a fantastic and exceptionally lucky* case of failing upwards towards the promised land. Name another player who managed to go from basement to the middle of the pack on to the top level of teams in 1 season like he just did beginning with forcing a trade and getting into a "public" dispute. 

I could be wrong, but that jumps out to me like a sore thumb. I'd want nothing to do with him until proven wrong about him angling with a motive. 

[oakdb36]

18 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

I stand corrected. I read an article somewhere mid season that he wasn't playing much in Baltimore. What was the reasoning the Vikings bought high and sold low on him after 5 games?

 

I'd guess their terrible start to the season led to the divorce. He was on a 1 year deal so they chose to get a 3rd back in 2021 while they could instead of a potential compensatory 3rd in 2022. And Ngakoue was probably all for getting traded to a more competitive team.

[ronjon1990]

9 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

It's way too early to make judgments on rookie cornerbacks. Especially ones who played the year with several concussions/injuries.

So a 26 year old CB who has a body that's already taken enough of a beating to severely limit his play and caused him to miss time being broken....

If that's the excuse for Arnette sucking at coverage and "tackling" (by that, I mean the Manti Teo girlfriend hug) with the force and courage I would use in a play fight with a toddler...which is exactly what it is regardless of it's validity....we're better off cutting him outright right now and not wasting our time hoping for better. 

[Jeremy408]

45 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

Well thought out post and well said.  

I'm not saying that what I am saying is 100 percent fact, as I hope I am wrong and Arnette turns out to be a lockdown stud, I just find it highly unlikely.  You bring up some good points but are also cherry picking stats.  He did play well in man coverage his senior season which is most likely why he was picked in the first round but as you point out he played in the Big 10 where 99 percent of the players he shut down are no where near NFL talent.  He also was lining up, the majority of the time against those Big 10 teams #2 WR as Okudah was on the number #1's.  

Things that are not subjective are his age, which is going to be 25 at the beginning of next season (his window to show that he is an elite shutdown #1 is closing as if he can't show it next year it will never happen), his speed (4.56 at the combine, I've heard the excuses but let's just say he lacks elite speed) which is no where near elite, his arm length (30 inches) which is in the bottom tier and has shown one year of success out of 5 (4 collegiate and 1 NFL) and that was against Big 10 number 2 WR's.  

All of those factors and what he showed in man coverage last year against NFL talent as our #2 CB (32 targets and 26 receptions allowed), I feel confidant that he will never be a lockdown number 1, which is what I fully expect when selecting a CB in the top 20.  He doesn't match up well with the Tyreek Hill's of the NFL as his lack of speed/ quickness will be a disaster when Hill gets by him and he also doesn't physically match up well with the big, tall, fast and precise route runners like Julio Jones.  

Hopefully he can turn in to a solid number 2 but once again I am very skeptical.  He has a place on this team but neither he nor Mullin are the lockdown #1 this team has been lacking.  There are some CB's in this years draft that could be that lockdown #1 we have been looking for and that is why I would not be opposed to selecting one of them at 17 if we feel that CB can be a shutdown 1.  

I liked your post and I hope to hear more of your takes on things as it sounds like you know your stuff and are well thought out.  

Thank you for understanding and respecting that unlike most raider fans or actually watch film. 
 

Here’s the thing though with me showing you single high and not really focusing on like zone coverage or some of the other stats is because single coverage shows what someone can actually do(regardless of height weight length or speed) It shows how they can move which again is why the at senior bowl scouts pay attention to what a corner can do in that situation the most. 
 

OK so I agree on the whole Big Ten thing but at the same time we have seen Ohio State corners But then again we wouldn’t of hold that against Lattimore or Jeffrey Okudah who came out the same year. And one thing that’s key to understand about playing corner is that teams actually attack who they perceive as the #2 corner more than the #2 corner does(especially in college). Which is why if you watch all of his targets he goes up against the number one corner and single coverage a lot especially in the Clemson game. As the season went on you actually find that they start throwing out at okudah more because they realize that Arnett was actually playing better.Okuda was actually the one who gave up the go ahead touchdown to T Higgins. 
 

Again you could definitely bring up age that’s not subjective but I also don’t think it means as much as you or most people make it out to be. Again Aqib Talib played at a high level until he was 34 and had very similar measurable’s to Damon Arnett except for the fact that his arm for 3 inches longer. What I was more concerned about when he got drafted was actually less about the fact that he was older and more about the fact that he didn’t really mature until his last year in college. I want to actually watched film and compared him to okudah that went I think number three overall he actually had much better film. 
 

Now of course his stats from last year werent good(in the limited time that he did play) but there are also a couple of things that I watched on film for him particularly And most of those(with the exception of like 2 or 3 plays looked like it was just a misunderstanding of zone coverage which he didn’t really play a lot of other than cover three. Those kind of things happen when you’re a rookie who played man and cover three only in college and you have no off-season or no pass rush being coached by someone who supposedly runs one of the most complicated schemes in the NFL. Now of course these are not excuses these are just simply realistic reasons for what I saw from a film perspective and why a rookie corner who only played seven games struggled. Let me put it this way if Trevon Mullen only played seven games in 2019, we would’ve actually never saw that he that he can actually play in this league.I’m actually curious to see what will happen for him with Gus Bradley  Who runs almost the exact same scheme as they did at Ohio State and a full off-season With hopefully an improved pass rush. to see what player I’m talking about I found it again in this video(Go to 2 minutes 31 seconds) 

now what you say about the whole measurable thing and how that shouldn’t do well against the Tyreek Hill’s and his limited film against not Tyreek Hill he actually did really well. I’m not sure if you Watch that game but he ran stride for stride with Tyreek Hill one play on a fade in it came up incomplete. After that play it wasn’t theoretical whether he could stay with fast receivers or not based on what the scouts or what any of us thought anymore because he did it in the NFL in a game against probably the fastest player in the NFL in man coverage with no safety help. That rep alone shows us that we can’t just dismiss Arnettes ability to run with the speedsters of the NFL simply because of his 40 time at the NFL combine. 
 

For the record he doesn’t look 4.5 on tape he looks like he runs low 4.4. Something random(but not)to keep in mind. When I was in high school I  my relay team ran against Serra high school in the state meet. I was the same leg as Robert Woods in the 4 x 100 meter relay and we ran stride for stride. I went on to run 4.3 as a sophomore in college. He went on to run 4.5 in the NFL combine coming out of his junior year. I’m not saying this is the case all the time but sometimes a players 40 time isn’t always indicative how fast someone is or  How they can move on a football field as we know with Robert Woods who beats people deep all the time. 

Now with the whole I hope he proves me wrong I completely respect that I hope he takes what I saw on tape in college in 2019 and  The new DB coach who I heard is really good and developed Chris Harris from an undrafted rookie into Chris Harris is able to cultivate the skills he has and help him clean up A lot of the things that I don’t like that he does. And of course man again I can be wrong too He could be completely garbage over 16 games next year and at least will know around this time next year that we need a corner. But again what we can’t do it’s just automatically dump him because we(me included) don’t like his measurable’s and he didn’t do well in 7 games last year. 

[MrOaktown_56]

2 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

So a 26 year old CB who has a body that's already taken enough of a beating to severely limit his play and caused him to miss time being broken....

If that's the excuse for Arnette sucking at coverage and "tackling" (by that, I mean the Manti Teo girlfriend hug) with the force and courage I would use in a play fight with a toddler...which is exactly what it is regardless of it's validity....we're better off cutting him outright right now and not wasting our time hoping for better. 

We’re better off cutting him? Cmon man.

He absolutely has workable traits. I saw him run with guys, including Hill.

Milus was brought in to develop these young guys. We brought in a press man favoring DC. 
 

I thought kolton Miller was a bust and turned it around with coaching and time. I don’t see why it’s unreasonable for other rookies/young players to do it.

[Jeremy408]

3 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

So a 26 year old CB who has a body that's already taken enough of a beating to severely limit his play and caused him to miss time being broken....

If that's the excuse for Arnette sucking at coverage and "tackling" (by that, I mean the Manti Teo girlfriend hug) with the force and courage I would use in a play fight with a toddler...which is exactly what it is regardless of it's validity....we're better off cutting him outright right now and not wasting our time hoping for better. 

Show me from the film perspective where Arnette can’t tackle. That’s actually one I’ve never heard before when it comes to him. 

[agarcia34]

I was listing to a podcast and they mentioned something that I think that will really help this defense and it is Gus did bring along his own guys with him. These guys like Milus know his system so they can get right into teaching these young corners instead of first trying to learn the system themselves and then having to teach it to the players afterwards. That is a big advantage. 

Way to early to even talk about giving up on Arnette when he showed at times his ability. He has a lot to change but now he has a really good DB coach that will help him out a lot.