The Official Derek Carr Thread

[big_palooka]

9 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

@big_palooka Let me ask you this, do you think the Cowboys should pay Dak 35 to 40 million?  

No. 

10 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

First off I like how you how you point out he is the focal point of the receivers in Dallas.  That is debatable as Gallup has been targeted more an averaged more YPG. 

Zeke is clearly the focal point of that O and the player the D coordinator keys in on.  Heck Zeke is so good he makes Dak appear to be above average to the fair weather fan.  

They give up a 1st rounder and will have to pay him 17 million a year or else he walks. If you think they won that deal you clearly dont understand how to build a Super Bowl winning roster. 

I didn't say Dallas "won that deal". It was best for both teams as Cooper wasn't excelling here. 

[big_palooka]

6 hours ago, true2form said:

I hoped someone would watch it. I hoped it might enlighten some of our younger fans on what our offense is and how it's supposed to look. 

Every post that says "deep shots" in it, proves to me that they don't even know what offense we are running.

Thanks for pointing out about Al. He hated this offense, wanted us to take deep shots like we always had before.  This offense is about timing, accuracy, and playmakers breaking a tackle and making plays. Rich Gannon executed it beautifully, but having 2 HOF WRs and a top running game certainly helped him.

So when I say Carr needs playmakers at WR, it's not just because he needs them, this offense needs them.

I think you are misconstruing the argument. It's not about taking "deep shots" for the sake of take them. It's about a QB who has statistically been on the bottom of the league in YPA since coming into the league. He's not even taking the intermediate routes most the time.

Also...The game, Gruden's offense have evolved since 2001. Gruden has said flat out, he wants Carr to take more deep shots:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001044672/article/gruden-wants-derek-carr-going-deep-more-often

He's remarked multiple times in losses this season that he called for deep balls and wasn't sure why they were not thrown. Echoing JDR who used to say the same.

So it's not all on Gruden's offense. That's a lazy argument. Heck, Jerry Porter used to take the top off for his offense back in the day if we all remember.

 

[big_palooka]

2 hours ago, raidr4life said:

@big_palooka Abort this conversation before its too late. He already deflecting to another subject and going to start putting words in your mouth next. 

Yeah, I know what's coming lol. I can't help myself

[true2form]

9 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

First Gannon had a water pistol of an arm but would still take shots 20-30 yards down the field when the opportunity was there.  I do not think anyone was specifically saying throw the 60-70 yard bomb on the first drive like Al use to call for.  Carr has the arm talent to drive the ball down field but he chooses not to and has had issues with panicking that cause him to not allow the play to develop.  Never said he didn't need to improve.

Second if you never drive the ball downfield defenses will adjust.  Our head coach himself has criticized Carr for not taking shots downfield when he has called for them.  Saying it is the offensive systems fault is ignoring what our coach/play-caller/offensive designer has said. He's taken some shots and he needs to take more. He also needs WRs he trusts and that can get open.

Third do I think Carr's plays better with better weapons? Yes.  Do I think he needs it to duplicate what Gannon did? No.  Your HOF WRs were 39 and 35 the first year they played together.  Not saying they were not good but they were not HOF level the 3 years they played together.  Both were top 15 WRs but neither were top 10. This is just sad.  Can't believe you even typed this. 

Jacobs > Garner   Yardage is equal but Jacobs is on pace to have a lot more TDs 

Williams << Brown  Brown beats him by 200-300 yards but TDs are the same.- Or are comparing these!

Waller < Rice Rice gets him because of TDs

Moreau >> Williams  4th option but it is worth pointing out since I had to compare Waller to Rice.  With injuries Moreau might get 600 yds and a few TDs compared to 300 yds and 3 tds.

Last the issues that drive most fans crazy about him is not the lack of throwing it deep alone.  It is the lack of throwing it the needed distance.  He is so cautious that he will check it down for 3 yards when he needs 8 because it is a higher percentage throw.  Problem is that it does not matter we are still punting.Throw it up and give your WR a chance sometimes.  I don't disagree that he could take more chances, but that's not what this offense is!!!!!!!! You get the ball out on time to a WR that is where they are supposed to be and then they make a play for the sticks. 

Carr is getting better and I think he can improve greatly with some better weapons and more self confidence but h is a work in progress.  I do not like it when fans say it is not his fault and I do not like it when fans say he can not improve while he is improving.There is no easy answer when it comes to getting another QB.   I would not give up everything for a great QB but I would not stay away from getting another possible great QB even when I have one.  So the answer to whether or not we replace Carr for me is it depends.  Is it all his fault? No.  Can he get better? Yes.

Thanking you for proving my point.  No where in my post did I say anything about it not being Carr's fault. You're making a lot of assumptions.  I was trying to educate on what the West Coast offense is.  Carr will need to take deep shots for this offense to be fully realized, but it will never be the backyard football that fans are clamoring for.  

You comparing our WRs to Brown and Rice, at any age, is completely ridiculous btw. In 2002 we had three players catch 81 passes or more. For all who hate Carr dumping off to the RB, yes, Charlie Garner caught 91 that year. 

This is what our offense is.  You get better players and better execution and seasons like 2001/2002 happen. Take Carr out of the equation and guess what? The next QB will be asked to do the same thing.  Maybe better, maybe worse, maybe the same.

[true2form]

4 hours ago, big_palooka said:

I think you are misconstruing the argument. It's not about taking "deep shots" for the sake of take them. It's about a QB who has statistically been on the bottom of the league in YPA since coming into the league. He's not even taking the intermediate routes most the time.

Also...The game, Gruden's offense have evolved since 2001. Gruden has said flat out, he wants Carr to take more deep shots:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001044672/article/gruden-wants-derek-carr-going-deep-more-often

He's remarked multiple times in losses this season that he called for deep balls and wasn't sure why they were not thrown. Echoing JDR who used to say the same.

So it's not all on Gruden's offense. That's a lazy argument. Heck, Jerry Porter used to take the top off for his offense back in the day if we all remember.

 

But that's my point too.  We all know Carr has missed some wide open guys over the years, but so does every QB ever. It's fine for everyone to want to take more shots, but that doesn't mean it's always possible. 

I'm also not blaming the offense or using it as a defense for Carr.  Simply just stating what the offense is and what it has looked like in the past at great success.  I'm sure Gruden has added new wrinkles to his playbook, but the core of what he does is still there and can't be denied.  TEs up the seam, RBs and FBs in the flat, WRs on crossing routes. 

Yes Jerry Porter took the top off for us, but that's lazy on your part because you can't deny that he was a final piece of the puzzle.  

[oakdb36]

I've said it somewhere already but i guess i'll say it again. 2002 was different because Gruden was gone. Gruden was running a balanced offense that asked less from Gannon (it actually was run heavy in Gannon's first 2 years and balanced in 2001). When Callahan took over, Gannon threw it a lot more. But that's probably more on Trestman (the OC) who is pass oriented. 2002 is when Porter got more involved.

[Darbsk]

16 hours ago, Geezy said:

many on here think like Carr is supposed to light up the score board and win shootouts every week. Have you not seen our WR core?

the past two weeks he has managed the office nicely, taking care of the ball and being efficient, as our offense is leaning on the run game. This is how we need to win games this year, As long as we win ball games, I’m good.

 

 

Good post. Carr has played game manager the last couple games - and I mean that in a complimentary way. Our receiving core against the Bears was possibly the worst talent wise I've ever seen us put out but they did their jobs in fairness to them, no terrible drops on 3rd down, tipped interceptions or receivers giving up on routes like we've had so often.

Carr knows the limitations of the offense, has been able to rely on the running game and put us in position to win and thankfully the defence has stepped up a little and held up their end of the deal. What we've had the last couple weeks is both sides of the ball and STs contributing to a winning effort. We can still improve relatively easily on all 3 phases though.

[raidr4life]

21 hours ago, Silver&Black88 said:

I like that you're always able to take a joke haha. 🍻

SB my favorite poster here all the rest of y'all bums. 

[raidr4life]

16 hours ago, NightTrainLane said:

When did Gruden say this?

 

I can't remember but he did actually say he needed Carr to take more deep shot, and i believe it was after a game where you saw Gruden on the side line telling him why he didn't take the deep shot, then after that game he talked about it.

[drfrey13]

9 hours ago, true2form said:

Thanking you for proving my point.  No where in my post did I say anything about it not being Carr's fault. You're making a lot of assumptions.  I was trying to educate on what the West Coast offense is.  Carr will need to take deep shots for this offense to be fully realized, but it will never be the backyard football that fans are clamoring for.  

You comparing our WRs to Brown and Rice, at any age, is completely ridiculous btw. In 2002 we had three players catch 81 passes or more. For all who hate Carr dumping off to the RB, yes, Charlie Garner caught 91 that year. 

This is what our offense is.  You get better players and better execution and seasons like 2001/2002 happen. Take Carr out of the equation and guess what? The next QB will be asked to do the same thing.  Maybe better, maybe worse, maybe the same.

I do not disagree with you but I do not fully agree with you.  The point of what we have now compared to Rice, Garner, and Brown was that you refrenced to them as HOFs.  They were probably the best set of weapons in the league that year but Gannon helped their numbers at that point in their career.  All 3 players stats fell off a cliff after that year when Gannon was hurt and all 3 where out of the league after 2004.  I liked watching Gannon in this offense and think I will feel the same way about Carr by the end of this year.  What is driving me crazy is his situational awareness.  Throwing it short of the sticks on 3rd with defenders around the receiver is a poor choice and it drives me crazy.  I would have to re-watch games to come up with examples but I believe it happens a lot in the second half when we are up.  He plays not to lose and that is why we find our offense stalling in the second half.  Like I said I could be wrong but I believe if Carr was not allowed to know the score and was told the current drive was to win the game on every drive he would be one of the best QBs in the league.

[true2form]

3 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

I do not disagree with you but I do not fully agree with you.  The point of what we have now compared to Rice, Garner, and Brown was that you refrenced to them as HOFs.  They were probably the best set of weapons in the league that year but Gannon helped their numbers at that point in their career.  All 3 players stats fell off a cliff after that year when Gannon was hurt and all 3 where out of the league after 2004.  I liked watching Gannon in this offense and think I will feel the same way about Carr by the end of this year.  What is driving me crazy is his situational awareness.  Throwing it short of the sticks on 3rd with defenders around the receiver is a poor choice and it drives me crazy.  I would have to re-watch games to come up with examples but I believe it happens a lot in the second half when we are up.  He plays not to lose and that is why we find our offense stalling in the second half.  Like I said I could be wrong but I believe if Carr was not allowed to know the score and was told the current drive was to win the game on every drive he would be one of the best QBs in the league.

I don't disagree with what you're saying either, but I struggle when fans blame it all on Carr.  I've seen too many "elite" QBs have bad years when they lose all of their playmakers. Especially when fans say throw deep, when there's no one to throw deep to.

Carr makes a lot of throws that you're referencing that make us all scratch our heads. Maybe that's all on him, I'm not certain. What I am 100% certain of is that PS WRs are not good enough. So I personally start there. Fix what you know is broken first, if Carr is still broken (not good enough) after that, then we need to move on.

Why get a tune-up on your car if you have a flat tire?

[Humble_Beast]

If we look at the trades like this 

Jacobs for Cooper 

win/win 

Mack trade we lost 

AB - just a 3rd, worth the shot ———- 

 

only the Mack trade was bad 

[NJ Raider]

Jacobs was part of the Mack trade. We got Abram in the Cooper trade. 

[Geezy]

On 10/12/2019 at 3:31 PM, Humble_Beast said:

If we look at the trades like this 

Jacobs for Cooper 

win/win 

Mack trade we lost 

AB - just a 3rd, worth the shot ———- 

 

only the Mack trade was bad 

The Mack trade was bad but we just beat the Bears, and we still have assets coming in and a bunch of cap space this offseason. We’re 3-2 and have exceeded everyone’s expectations thus far. We’re headed in the right direction, but we still have “fans” bitching about every little thing. Chill, and let things play out.

so many guys on here are more worried about being right than actual team success. The trade is done, ride for who is here or go be a Bears fan. 

[NYRaider]

On 10/12/2019 at 3:31 PM, Humble_Beast said:

If we look at the trades like this 

Jacobs for Cooper 

win/win 

Mack trade we lost 

AB - just a 3rd, worth the shot ———- 

 

only the Mack trade was bad 

We used the Bears pick (#24) to draft Josh Jacobs.