Lets Discuss All Things Wrestling - Even The T-Shirt Company AEW!

[StLunatic88]

14 minutes ago, Dr LBC said:

For the record, just casting Punk aside to placate the Elite marks isn't going to be the easy fix some think it is, particularly in the locker room.  You do that and you're deepening the rift with FTR (because they'll side with Punk) and potentially other guys in the locker room who tolerate Nick and Matt because they're concerned not doing so would jeopardize their paycheck/bookings.

Nothing youre saying here is incorrect, but if what Punk started ranting about the other night wasnt part of a planned shoot, and then he really did start a physical confrontation aftward... No one is going to be taking his side in the locker room. 

Hes coming off like a whiny unhinged brat right now. And if he has actually turned into a Malcontent, and not just playing one, dont think the likes of FTR will back that up

[djw4bucs]

Punk needs to either be suspended or forced to take some time off after he loses to MJF.

Ace Steel needs to be gone cause u can’t throw a chair at someone and bite someone no matter how u feel about them. 
 

Everyone involved needs to be talked to deal with their differences and Tony needs to stand up and take some action or else he will be walked over by ever talent in that locker room 

[Dr LBC]

31 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

Nothing youre saying here is incorrect, but if what Punk started ranting about the other night wasnt part of a planned shoot, and then he really did start a physical confrontation aftward... No one is going to be taking his side in the locker room. 

Hes coming off like a whiny unhinged brat right now. And if he has actually turned into a Malcontent, and not just playing one, dont think the likes of FTR will back that up

I think you underestimate how much what Punk has said about the Elite is a sentiment shared by other talents.  I don't think either party was in the right here, but one set of parties were executives (at least in titles) and one wasn't.  And there's an expectation that executives de-escalate contentious matters (even if sometimes it means temporarily eating the proverbial feces sandwich for the sake of the business - especially when you're mid-management), and that wasn't what happened here.  Punk's certainly not the first, or even 10th, person to level accusations at the Bucks and Kenny for being weasels, willing to lie to sell their narrative.  For as much crap as I give Jericho for his character choices and some of the storylines he pushes himself into, the guy still handles himself backstage like a damn professional (somewhat deluded at times, but still professional).  This is something that I'm not sure the Jacksons and Kenny have ever quite digested - you can't be "one of the boys" and "one of the executives" simultaneously; and if you even try to be, you absolutely have to defer to your executive hat over your own personal ego when push comes to shove because EVERYONE is affected by your actions as an executive not just yourself.

Punk's a surly *******; Phil Brooks has never not been a surly ******* - he's never denied that.  But he's now a surly ******* with the proverbial FU money - and he's never been one to sit and just swallow crap that's spoon-fed to him.  The dude isn't a malcontent to anyone outside of the Reseda Crew.  By all accounts he and Cole get on fine.  Danhausen, Hobbs, etcetera have all gone to him, asked for him watch their stuff and give them notes, and he happily obliged.  "He's been nothing but a great person, a great mentor to a lot of guys there.  He wants the best for the company.  Whoever says anything to the contrary is just, in my opinion, people being childish and behaving like middle schoolers."  Those are Cash Wheeler's own words.  "Or insecurity."  Which was Dax's follow up to that statement in the same shoot interview.  They've been on his side this entire time.

 

[StLunatic88]

1 hour ago, Dr LBC said:

I think you underestimate how much what Punk has said about the Elite is a sentiment shared by other talents.  I don't think either party was in the right here, but one set of parties were executives (at least in titles) and one wasn't.  And there's an expectation that executives de-escalate contentious matters (even if sometimes it means temporarily eating the proverbial feces sandwich for the sake of the business - especially when you're mid-management), and that wasn't what happened here.  Punk's certainly not the first, or even 10th, person to level accusations at the Bucks and Kenny for being weasels, willing to lie to sell their narrative.  For as much crap as I give Jericho for his character choices and some of the storylines he pushes himself into, the guy still handles himself backstage like a damn professional (somewhat deluded at times, but still professional).  This is something that I'm not sure the Jacksons and Kenny have ever quite digested - you can't be "one of the boys" and "one of the executives" simultaneously; and if you even try to be, you absolutely have to defer to your executive hat over your own personal ego when push comes to shove because EVERYONE is affected by your actions as an executive not just yourself.

Punk's a surly *******; Phil Brooks has never not been a surly ******* - he's never denied that.  But he's now a surly ******* with the proverbial FU money - and he's never been one to sit and just swallow crap that's spoon-fed to him.  The dude isn't a malcontent to anyone outside of the Reseda Crew.  By all accounts he and Cole get on fine.  Danhausen, Hobbs, etcetera have all gone to him, asked for him watch their stuff and give them notes, and he happily obliged.  "He's been nothing but a great person, a great mentor to a lot of guys there.  He wants the best for the company.  Whoever says anything to the contrary is just, in my opinion, people being childish and behaving like middle schoolers."  Those are Cash Wheeler's own words.  "Or insecurity."  Which was Dax's follow up to that statement in the same shoot interview.  They've been on his side this entire time.

 

Thats all fine and dandy, I couldnt give less of a care about who is 'right or wrong' between the Elite and whoever is airing grievances about them at the time, but when a guy completely goes into business for himself, no one worth their salt in the Wrestling business supports that.

And if you listen to the entire scrum from Punk, he walked in there with an agenda, that started so weirdly without anyone actually asking him a question. He tried to play "Gotcha" with a guy who he thought was friends with Colt Cabana (and then had to back track when he was wrong there) and it only continued to be weird from there, Including Tony's little "ive got money" tirade.

But if it is actually true that Punk and Ace were the ones who initiated a PHYSICAL altercation, then they are wrong no matter who you want to try to deem as management. Especially if that included throwing chairs and Biting. Again, no one is backing them up on that.

At a time they should be bowing up, putting their best foot forward and showing out as one company, they seem to be at each others throats. If that persists, WWE will walk right over them with their new set up.

 

And intentional or not, Punk doing this stuff completely takes the shine away from what should have been the massive storyline coming out of All Out, the Return of MJF. It comes off as selfish and as an attempt to keep the younger rising star down. Again, he may not mean it that way, but its what the casual fan sees it as.

Edited September 6, 2022 by StLunatic88

[Mox]

Stressed

[Deadpulse]

6 hours ago, Bullet Club said:

Without The Elite, All Elite Wrestling is dead.

why do you think this?

[Mox]

3 hours ago, Deadpulse said:

why do you think this?

The hardcore fan base followed AEW because of The Elite. They are the WWE alternative. If they leave, it's just another company with ex-WWE guys on a smaller scale than WWE. Kicking the foundation of your company to the curb or forcing them to leave would be a ton of bad will with the fans.

[Deadpulse]

1 hour ago, Bullet Club said:

The hardcore fan base followed AEW because of The Elite. They are the WWE alternative. If they leave, it's just another company with ex-WWE guys on a smaller scale than WWE. Kicking the foundation of your company to the curb or forcing them to leave would be a ton of bad will with the fans.

I don't think they would have that big of an impact that it immediately tanks AEW. I mean at the end of the day they are just 3 dudes. Kenny was gone for almost a year. The Bucks were barely in any storylines. Hell even MJF was off TV and they still had strong numbers. Honestly, IMO, if Punk and the Elite all left I think AEW would see a short term drop but would ultimately steady out with MJF, Mox, and a whole host of homegrown future all stars with Jack Perry, Sammy, Dante Martin, Max Caster, Hobbs, Starks, Hook, etc. While you do have just as many ex WWE guys, I think they have enough of their own up incomers to even it out. 

Also, Mox has transcended the "ex-WWE" tag IMO

[Mox]

10 hours ago, Deadpulse said:

I don't think they would have that big of an impact that it immediately tanks AEW. I mean at the end of the day they are just 3 dudes. Kenny was gone for almost a year. The Bucks were barely in any storylines. Hell even MJF was off TV and they still had strong numbers. Honestly, IMO, if Punk and the Elite all left I think AEW would see a short term drop but would ultimately steady out with MJF, Mox, and a whole host of homegrown future all stars with Jack Perry, Sammy, Dante Martin, Max Caster, Hobbs, Starks, Hook, etc. While you do have just as many ex WWE guys, I think they have enough of their own up incomers to even it out. 

Also, Mox has transcended the "ex-WWE" tag IMO

Kenny was out for 9 months but Hangman was champ for 2/3 of that time, and the Bucks were on nearly every show with Cole/UE. If it was as simple as Kenny/Bucks/Hangman aren't on screen I agree they have enough talent to survive. But them leaving the company would be a major blow to and really piss off the fan base. They are AEW's backbone and the reason it exists. That and that people were sick of what WWE was offering and wanted an alternative. Well without them the vast majority of the top talent in AEW are ex-WWE guys and it's no longer an alternative...just lesser. Then you throw in the fact that WWE has all the positive press with HHH in charge, while AEW's press is in the toilet right now. People would tune out or go back to WWE. It wouldn't die immediately but it'd fall off hard.

[Dr LBC]

23 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

But if it is actually true that Punk and Ace were the ones who initiated a PHYSICAL altercation, then they are wrong no matter who you want to try to deem as management. Especially if that included throwing chairs and Biting. Again, no one is backing them up on that.

Actually, no.  When you are given an executive title in a company, then that trumps your status as "one of the boys" in terms of your legal culpability as an agent of the company.

Initiation of a physical altercation really comes down to provocation.  Steel's got a reasonable self-defense argument in that, from the sound of things, he wasn't in the room to start with and entered in, after his injured wife called out.  I don't know about you, but at least where I'm concerned, if someone puts my wife in a situation where she's in potential physical danger, I'm going straight hood.

Regardless, yes, having those titles as executives of the company puts an added liability on said executives to act as agents of the company, in particular when they're on company time at an event and venue which has been contracted by the company.  Thus, they make the company financially liable for any transgressions (legally-defensible or not) committed by said agents.  There's a reason why you hire security (who carry their own insurance for such financial liability situations).

At the very least, regardless of how this all boils down, the Jacksons and Kenny should be stripped of their executive statuses - and that I could definitely see even non-committal Tony following through on, because Shad will get involved if he has to.  These guys have shown themselves as not willing to put the company (and Tony'/Shad's money - as is the responsibility of an executive on company time) before their own personal squabbles.  This is precisely why the practice of active talent being executives in the company was non-existent barring the very rarely instances of an individual talent have the bulk of a financial stake in a small territory organization.  At this point, the Elite have a documented track record of physical altercation with employees, which is a precedent that if they were to remain in their executive capacities would be subject by any lawyer if any future altercation with them and other talent were to result in someone suing Tony (not just AEW, but Tony Khan and potentially Shad Khan as guys whose names top the company letterhead) for unsafe work environment.

[StLunatic88]

10 minutes ago, Dr LBC said:

Actually, no.  When you are given an executive title in a company, then that trumps your status as "one of the boys" in terms of your legal culpability as an agent of the company.

You seem to be so stuck on this "one of the boys" thing, and this has gone so far beyond that.

You CANNOT start a physical altercation, no matter what was said, or who the one saying it to you is. Its that simple.

(and please tell me you arent buying that Ace stuff. You really think they put their hands on a woman in all of this when its been said they werent the ones who started they physicality? Or does that sound more like an excuse for his actions, after the fact that he thought he could get away with? And in the unlikel scenario that she was caught up in the scrap, you really think the best way to Protect said woman if she was in danger was to throw a chair and start biting? come on, youre better than that)

Were the Bucks and Kenny wrong if they barged in on Punk, thinking they would outnumber him and intimidate him? Yes absolutely, but again they were wrong and unprofessional doing that... not breaking the law. And speaking of unprofessional, Punk started everything that night with his whole inflammatory remarks about them, (not to mention those in the wrestling journalism field have stated Punk was wrong about his insinuations) Which is also very wrong. and if it were all left there with words and arguments, it would be suspensions and apologies to the public, but one side escalated it to a PHYSICAL ALTERCATION. And the already handed out suspensions to one side, but pending discipline thought to be potentially worse, up to termination, on the other side clearly shows you who was at fault here.

 

Im not defending the Elite and all the bull they pull here, but their past altercations have no real barring here, because they didnt start it that night, nor did they seem to throw the first punch. It feels like you are trying to give Punk and his side a pass here because you dont like the other guys, and it just cant be that way in real life. Especially not here, seeing as plenty of people have very similar feelings about Punk (fans and talent) as you do toward the Elite

[TOUCAN]

Fire Ace Steel and then watch Punk walk or get himself fired.

Dude is toxic.

Not saying the Elite were in the right here, even though general consensus is very anti Punk from what I've read, but yeah, fire him.

You'll lose ticket sales in Chicago, but he's done it to himself.

[Dr LBC]

10 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

(not to mention those in the wrestling journalism field have stated Punk was wrong about his insinuations)

Please point me to these statements that weren't just Dave and Alvarez on their podcast playing CYA - and yeah, Brian's tone and word choice very much suggested that - he was willing to admit fault in front of his peers (the scrum) but no in front of his audience; that's two-faced as hell.

Something that no one seems to consider in this, the Bucks and Kenny very much had the capacity, if they'd so chosen, to squash any of this at any time, but didn't seem willing to make their boy, Page, look potentially foolish for going into business for himself - I find it strange that you keep a blind eye towards this not being a jumping-off point.  If an EVP of a company can't pick up the phone and call the president to ask for clarification as to why a particular talent (who was barely being used to begin with) was moved to a different roster, how much is his position really worth?

I'm not the only one who felt that Page's promo when he made it on the eve of the Punk/Page title match was beyond weird.  It was a borderline heel promo, save for the fact that the chosen words did nothing to push the opponent as a babyface.

I repeat, NO ONE in this is in the right.  But Ace Steel never suggested that any of the Elite raised a hand to his wife -that doesn't mean his wife didn't feel threatened or that she wasn't endangered (and with a broken foot, less capable to remove herself from said danger).  We don't know who threw the first punch - we don't (I'm not putting stock in either Punk's side - that Matt threw first and missed - or the Elite side - that Punk threw first).  We don't know who all was in that locker room beyond Punk, the Elite, Lucy, and Larry.  That said, it doesn't take a Rhodes Scholar to logic together that if your professional capacity entails not further escalating an already volatile situation (that you've already had to call a full-roster meeting about earlier in the week) that showing up with 3-to-1 odds in any sort of aggressive manner while temperatures are still peaked isn't going to end well.  Kind of goes without saying, don't want to get stung, don't kick a hornets' nest.  What we do know is that the Elite knew that the only person above them on the chain of command was otherwise occupied at the time and rather than doing the responsible thing of even just plain talking to Tony to intercede as an intermediary (or one of the guys that they'd just freaking hired in this capacity like Daniels), they chose to go deal with it themselves.

Fights in locker rooms in professional wrestling at nothing new - they may be to guys like the Elite, but even Booker T was recanting his well-known issue with Batista, in his rundown of this whole affair.

Now do I believe for a second that the Jacksons just politely knocked on Punk's locker room door until let in by someone, then stood at a distance calmly stating their case, and even if/when closed down by Punk tried to de-escalate only to then get thrown on?  Not for a second, and if you believe that, sorry, there's no other way to put it but your mark is showing (and I think I know you better than that).  Hell, I'm not even a fan of Kenny the person, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for being a half-intelligent businessman and recognizing that he's just recently battled back from lengthy injury so getting into a backstage brawl - even with odds - with a heated, trained MMA fighter (people can bring up Punk's UFC record all they want, Mickey Gall would have run through Kenny too) isn't a wise move for one's health.  And that's very likely why Kenny stayed back initially (I'm, for the sake of discussion, refraining from interjecting other tangential stuffs related to Kenny's character that may have contributed to this as well).

A whole lot of egos got out of line in this - and a whole lot of egos, I believe, grossly over-estimated what they'd be allowed to get away with - for varying reasons (and some similar - namely the draws of all talent involved).

My point is, if you're going to lump blame in this, going to just who you perceive as being the source of the initial jump-off moment doesn't do justice and isn't correct.  You either lump everyone involved as having blame or no one.  And the later does nothing to reach any sort of solution that does the company any good whatsoever.

[Dr LBC]

54 minutes ago, JoshstraDaymus said:

Fire Ace Steel and then watch Punk walk or get himself fired.

Dude is toxic.

Not saying the Elite were in the right here, even though general consensus is very anti Punk from what I've read, but yeah, fire him.

You'll lose ticket sales in Chicago, but he's done it to himself.

Thank god you'll never run a company dependent on hiring talent and dealing with other multi-million dollar corporations

[Mox]

Allegedly Punk needs surgery. SMFH.

Should've kept the title on Mox.