Lets Discuss All Things Wrestling - Even The T-Shirt Company AEW!

[Dr LBC]

3 hours ago, Mox said:

I think that's harsh considering it's far more projection than reality

You know this how?  Whether you mean "protecton" (and no, a lot of the guys that aren't Ospreay are now protecting their opponents - ROH has actually gotten a lot worse at this of late) or "projection" - and I'm not projecting, I'm detailing very much what I've been seeing - the guys trained in Japanese dojos and working strong style are very much trained - mercilessly so - in protecting both themselves and their opponents.

But Will isn't guiltless either.  That super brainbuster that he - whether intending or not (he failed regardless) to hit the turnbuckle a la Sami/Generico's Brainbustah! - didn't protect either of them and they both took head and neck bumps that narrowly avoided major spinal damage... and then barely sold the damn move.

The later part is the more dangerous second edge of the sword because guys are doing more and more of these moves for little more than "holy ****" pops and then go on to do another 15-20 minutes of match.  It pushes beyond the realms of suspending disbelief.

[Mox]

9 minutes ago, Dr LBC said:

You know this how?  Whether you mean "protecton" (and no, a lot of the guys that aren't Ospreay are now protecting their opponents - ROH has actually gotten a lot worse at this of late) or "projection" - and I'm not projecting, I'm detailing very much what I've been seeing - the guys trained in Japanese dojos and working strong style are very much trained - mercilessly so - in protecting both themselves and their opponents.

But Will isn't guiltless either.  That super brainbuster that he - whether intending or not (he failed regardless) to hit the turnbuckle a la Sami/Generico's Brainbustah! - didn't protect either of them and they both took head and neck bumps that narrowly avoided major spinal damage... and then barely sold the damn move.

The later part is the more dangerous second edge of the sword because guys are doing more and more of these moves for little more than "holy ****" pops and then go on to do another 15-20 minutes of match.  It pushes beyond the realms of suspending disbelief.

No, I mean projecting, because that's what you're doing. Your 'example' is a botch, which happens every match, and one where neither guy was injured. It's well known, especially at the highest level, the vast majority of injuries in wrestling don't come from the big moves but from the routine stuff.

If others try to emulate Ospreay and can't, it's silly to blame him for that. That's on the wrestlers doing it who only think of matches as a collection of moves as opposed to telling a story. It's not Ospreay's fault he does both.

[Dr LBC]

12 minutes ago, Mox said:

If others try to emulate Ospreay and can't, it's silly to blame him for that. That's on the wrestlers doing it who only think of matches as a collection of moves as opposed to telling a story. It's not Ospreay's fault he does both.

Actually, the crux of the blame lies on the promoter and the producers of the match for letting those guys get away on with unsafe work.

You're also making inappropriate generalization to support your argument.  The majority of injuries that keep wrestlers out for longer periods of time (ligament and soft tissue injuries) come on routine stuff.  The injuries that have had permanent or life-threatening consequences have often been avoidable even if they came on a "routine" move.  When Owen broke Austin's neck it was because Owen botched the Tombstone and rushed the execution of the move (there's a reason why Taker always paused before execution the piledriver, it was to allow for the opponent to confirm that they had enough clearance - and had their own arms wrapped around Taker's upper legs - so that the impact would go wholly on Taker's knees).  Darius Martin's leg break at Super Card of Honor was a mutual botch (because the Canadian/Mexican Destroyer is a move as much powered by the recipient as the "giver") by him and Penta on a patently stupid spot (that producers and the promoter should have flatly told them, "No!" on) because it is virtually impossible for the taker to judge the amount of push-off to ensure clearing the distances necessary to get over the ropes and to a stack of tables set up outside from the top of a ladder set up in the ring.  The only truly life-altering injury that I'm aware of happening from a standard move that wasn't the result of a botch from, at minimum, laziness was D'Lo on Droz.  I don't think Goldberg intentionally booted Bret so hard he had a stroke, but I do think Bill was careless and more concerned with getting his own stuff in looking stiff over what Bret was expecting (i.e. "snug vs stiff").

Do botches occur semi-regularly?  Yes.  Do they occur more often in Tony's promotions than many, manyy're others?  Also, yes.  Is Will at fault for that?  He's not the most responsible, but he does bear a degree of responsibility, albeit lower down the list than the wrestlers in the ring, the producers (for however how much they're actually listened to), Tony and management, leaders in the locker room, and (and I'm sure this will be an unpopular opinion) the fans for - let's call a spade a spade - really only caring about the health of the performers in terms of not wanting to see them die (because I don't think there are a huge amount of psychopaths out there) and not wanting to be inconvenienced by having a feud or storyline upended by a long-term injury.

It's naive to think that if guys and girls seeing this stuff being performed on the programs that are getting national TV coverage and they're on the indies, they're going to see that as the standard of what needs to be met and benchmarked if they want to even touch that strata, especially when the major internet wrestling journalists rave about the matches that have 2-3 such spots in them on the regular.  But hey, don't take my word for it - there are plenty of vets of both wrestling, promoting, and training that have all said the same thing.

[Fresh Prince]

1 hour ago, Jeezla said:

I like Sami, but you got to be spotlighted in the best WWE storyline for like a year. Let Gable shine for once. 

It’s a shame also because Gable could have a great run with feuds against balor, tamasso, Sami. Also could set up a nice storyline between Giovanni, and Ludwig where they both try to Win the belt back for Gunther in his honor, but keep failing in title or #1 contender matches.

[Mox]

23 minutes ago, Dr LBC said:

Actually, the crux of the blame lies on the promoter and the producers of the match for letting those guys get away on with unsafe work.

You're also making inappropriate generalization to support your argument.  The majority of injuries that keep wrestlers out for longer periods of time (ligament and soft tissue injuries) come on routine stuff.  The injuries that have had permanent or life-threatening consequences have often been avoidable even if they came on a "routine" move.  When Owen broke Austin's neck it was because Owen botched the Tombstone and rushed the execution of the move (there's a reason why Taker always paused before execution the piledriver, it was to allow for the opponent to confirm that they had enough clearance - and had their own arms wrapped around Taker's upper legs - so that the impact would go wholly on Taker's knees).  Darius Martin's leg break at Super Card of Honor was a mutual botch (because the Canadian/Mexican Destroyer is a move as much powered by the recipient as the "giver") by him and Penta on a patently stupid spot (that producers and the promoter should have flatly told them, "No!" on) because it is virtually impossible for the taker to judge the amount of push-off to ensure clearing the distances necessary to get over the ropes and to a stack of tables set up outside from the top of a ladder set up in the ring.  The only truly life-altering injury that I'm aware of happening from a standard move that wasn't the result of a botch from, at minimum, laziness was D'Lo on Droz.  I don't think Goldberg intentionally booted Bret so hard he had a stroke, but I do think Bill was careless and more concerned with getting his own stuff in looking stiff over what Bret was expecting (i.e. "snug vs stiff").

Do botches occur semi-regularly?  Yes.  Do they occur more often in Tony's promotions than many, manyy're others?  Also, yes.  Is Will at fault for that?  He's not the most responsible, but he does bear a degree of responsibility, albeit lower down the list than the wrestlers in the ring, the producers (for however how much they're actually listened to), Tony and management, leaders in the locker room, and (and I'm sure this will be an unpopular opinion) the fans for - let's call a spade a spade - really only caring about the health of the performers in terms of not wanting to see them die (because I don't think there are a huge amount of psychopaths out there) and not wanting to be inconvenienced by having a feud or storyline upended by a long-term injury.

It's naive to think that if guys and girls seeing this stuff being performed on the programs that are getting national TV coverage and they're on the indies, they're going to see that as the standard of what needs to be met and benchmarked if they want to even touch that strata, especially when the major internet wrestling journalists rave about the matches that have 2-3 such spots in them on the regular.  But hey, don't take my word for it - there are plenty of vets of both wrestling, promoting, and training that have all said the same thing.

I think I misread, and thought you were saying something that you weren't. That's on me. There is a decent amount of stuff here that I agree with.

[Dr LBC]

5 hours ago, Mox said:

I think I misread, and thought you were saying something that you weren't. That's on me. There is a decent amount of stuff here that I agree with.

Ultimately, I'm not saying there's a tremendous amount of fault on Ospreay, but he needs to at least be aware of what's going on and, if he thinks of himself as a locker room leader, ought to be - even if it comes across egotistical (which I, strangely, don't think he has an issue with) - making a point to other guys on the roster, "If you can't do what I do (as well and as, generally, safe as I do), then don't do it," for both reasons of safety of other guys in the locker room and because it waters down the specialness of the stuff he does.  It's about protecting your stuff and what makes you special as a talent; same as in the territory days when a particular move was one guy on the upper card or main event's finish, no one on the card below that match dared do the same move.  Even in, for example, ECW, because Sandman used a kendo stick/Singapore cane, nobody else on the roster would use the weapon unless they were in a match against or with Sandman.

They were very fortunate that Sting was willing the work the gimmicks that they pitched to him to work (the sheets of glass, the dives off the entranceways) because he has more than enough clout to tell whichever guy was pitching that to him to get stuffed because it didn't add anything to the match.  I could be mistaken, and I'm open to being proven wrong, but I believe there's a reason certain veterans aren't willing to work these kind of matches outside of with other vets that they've worked with before (and have a level of trust and understanding), particularly in AEW.  For example, Copeland has only worked what would be consider extreme/weapons matches with Sting and Darby also involved, Dustin also involved (and Lance Archer was involved in several of those - and Archer, despite the character, is a pretty extraordinarily safe worker for his opponent, sometimes to his own detriment as I've seen him sacrifice his own body to protect his opponent when a spot veered off plan), or Christian (his best friend).  It's all about an individual's comfort level, but that's where, again setting the character's reputation aside, some of these guys are perfectly comfortable working with Suzuki because he's going to lay stuff in stiff, but he doesn't wrestle of perform a style that's much worse than working a guy like Gunther where, yeah, you're going to come out with welts and bruises but your neck, head, and back aren't going to really ever be in any danger that goes beyond taking a flat-back bump.

And with regard to Suzuki, much like his mentor Fujiwara - who was trained by Karl Gotch - he throws some of the best working strikes, in that they look brutal but if he wants to he's able to pull them without making them look anymore pulled than if he were just laying them in normal.

[Mox]

Crowd was great but Mercedes debut was lame.

[beekay414]

1 hour ago, Mox said:

Crowd was great but Mercedes debut was lame.

I've always found her lame tbh. She hasn't evolved much or at all since NXT. She can't be the Boss now because that's WWE's property so she's the CEO? Lol

[Mox]

4 minutes ago, beekay414 said:

I've always found her lame tbh. She hasn't evolved much or at all since NXT. She can't be the Boss now because that's WWE's property so she's the CEO? Lol

She 100% peaked in NXT. She was the best female talent in WWE at age 23 and looked like the complete package. But she never grew and yeah, she's been mid basically since her call up.

[Dr LBC]

1 hour ago, Mox said:

She 100% peaked in NXT. She was the best female talent in WWE at age 23 and looked like the complete package. But she never grew and yeah, she's been mid basically since her call up.

The one thing she has going for her is that she's really good at adjusting on the fly and working with what a situation is giving her (bit ironic because Bianca, who has effectively usurped the essence and put a different spin on the Boss character, that's IMO one of her areas needing work).  Thing was, this was a strength that was effectively moot when Vince was the one calling the shots and dictating the show because for all his "grab the brass ring" talk, if someone would call and audible and put their nuts on the table with something they really felt strongly would work and it didn't take - Vince would take it as an affront and bury the talent just for going against his plan.

If/when (she's said she does plan to eventually go back) she does matriculate back to the Fed, we'll probably see more of Sasha Classic, the NXT Sasha where she was able to read and react more often and you get the moments like her ripping up Izzy's (Bailey's superfan) sign in front of her and then throwing the pieces on Bailey's body.

But I do feel like as Bianca's star gained luster it made losing Sasha an easier pill to swallow - as, for all the talk of Mercedes being a worker second only to Charlotte, there's a strong case that Bianca is a stronger worker or has grown to be.  I don't know that we're going to see it terribly soon given the lean-in that WWE is putting on Tez and Bianca with their reality show, but the true test for longevity will be if Bianca can pull off a turn and execute a long heel run that isn't parody or a walking/dancing satire.

[beekay414]

3 hours ago, Mox said:

She 100% peaked in NXT. She was the best female talent in WWE at age 23 and looked like the complete package. But she never grew and yeah, she's been mid basically since her call up.

We'll always have Brooklyn at least 

[wgbeethree]

So I haven't heard anybody talk about this.

Josh Barnett's Bloodsport organization is holding an event on Wrestlemania weekend. John Hennigan (aka Johnny fill in the last name) and Shayna Baszler are both schedule to appear. That has to be the first time an AEW and a WWE wrestler have been on the same card since the inception of AEW, right?

Does that seem like as big of a deal to anyone else as it does me?

[Fresh Prince]

2 hours ago, wgbeethree said:

So I haven't heard anybody talk about this.

Josh Barnett's Bloodsport organization is holding an event on Wrestlemania weekend. John Hennigan (aka Johnny fill in the last name) and Shayna Baszler are both schedule to appear. That has to be the first time an AEW and a WWE wrestler have been on the same card since the inception of AEW, right?

Does that seem like as big of a deal to anyone else as it does me?

If it was someone bigger than Shayna maybe

[beekay414]

lmao

[sdrawkcab321]

Whatever the rock is being paid isn’t enough. We haven’t seen anything this entertaining in a long time.