Lets Discuss All Things Wrestling - Even The T-Shirt Company AEW!

[bcb1213]

Interesting. Still something she doesn't need to be doing, but does explain a lot from the whole night including the priest leg thing

 

https://www.thesportster.com/aj-styles-loose-ropes-clash-at-the-castle-jade-cargill-mistake/

Edited June 17 by bcb1213

[StLunatic88]

1 hour ago, bcb1213 said:

i don't think it was the selling as much as the multi woman mayham.  It's easier to understand and think when it's you and one opponent.  It looked like her brain was moving slower than the others who have done it a ton.  The top rope thing was on her, but frankly, she shouldn't be doing that type of stuff anyhow, it's not necessary.  Be the power house

Im absolutely not here to bash Jade, shes only been doing it for like 3 years and has less than 100 (televised) matches under her belt, with most of those being either Squashes or Tag matches. But she will absolutely be a very interesting case to follow over the next few years in WWE

She is obviously a powerhouse with the strength and athleticism that is mouth watering. She also has the (physical) charisma that is hard to teach. But she is going to have to clean up the mic skills and mostly find her style/sense of in ring phycology if shes going to be anything more than a lesser version of Goldberg in this age of wrestling. 

Im still not sure immediately teaming her up with Bianca, who is arguably on the path to being one of the best American Women's wrestlers of all time (amongst an amazing group these days), was really the best move out the gate. THey are on different levels, and as a Tag Team is is even more evident within each match.

I get WHY they did it ($$$) but the real question to me is, where do they go from here? Is that fixable in the tag division? Can Jade grow in the womens undercard without a belt to shine the spotlight on her? Would they run the angle to send Jade back down to NXT to correctly build her up? Would Jade accept that? Theres not an easy answer in my mind, but what they are currently doing isint really helping Jade enough to justify the continuation of holding Bianca back (especially without a few of the Top Contenders in the Womens division right now)

[Dr LBC]

4 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

Im absolutely not here to bash Jade, shes only been doing it for like 3 years and has less than 100 (televised) matches under her belt, with most of those being either Squashes or Tag matches. But she will absolutely be a very interesting case to follow over the next few years in WWE

She is obviously a powerhouse with the strength and athleticism that is mouth watering. She also has the (physical) charisma that is hard to teach. But she is going to have to clean up the mic skills and mostly find her style/sense of in ring phycology if shes going to be anything more than a lesser version of Goldberg in this age of wrestling. 

Im still not sure immediately teaming her up with Bianca, who is arguably on the path to being one of the best American Women's wrestlers of all time (amongst an amazing group these days), was really the best move out the gate. THey are on different levels, and as a Tag Team is is even more evident within each match.

I get WHY they did it ($$$) but the real question to me is, where do they go from here? Is that fixable in the tag division? Can Jade grow in the womens undercard without a belt to shine the spotlight on her? Would they run the angle to send Jade back down to NXT to correctly build her up? Would Jade accept that? Theres not an easy answer in my mind, but what they are currently doing isint really helping Jade enough to justify the continuation of holding Bianca back (especially without a few of the Top Contenders in the Womens division right now)

This is entirely educated speculation on my part, but it's been fairly well known for a while now that Hunter is very old school in his approach: Long burn story-building, mapping out a year at a time where top-to-upper card storylines are concerned, and I would contend - by and large - in terms of match coordination.  To that last bit specifically, while WWE very clearly still utilizes producers and matches aren't "just go out there and call it on the fly" anymore, you still have a leader and a follower in matches, and outside of certain newer guys (to PW in general) like Logan Paul, the matches are still being led by the heels if you know where to look for the indicators.  That women's tag triple threat appeared to be being led by both Shayna and Bianca, more the former but there were places where Bianca was directing traffic while Shayna was powdering on the outside.

So if this is definitely the case then pairing Jade with Bianco out the gate makes a lot of sense if a heel Bianca is going to be Jade's first major feud, because Bianca will still be able to lead from the heel position and Jade can follow and still shine and be in a position to shine.

I'd say that, while she was effectively training/trained at the Nightmare Factory, that's one of the reasons why her on-the-job development in AEW was so slow and stagnant.  It's easier for raw wrestlers to get over as a heel, but that doesn't mean that younger wrestlers should be heels, unless you're literally scripting the entire match move-for-move and don't stray from that at all (which even when matches are laid out going in there's still usually allowance for some pivot/ad-libbing based out the read of crowd response).  Unless the heel Jade was being put up against a veteran hand babyface - which was only a handful of times (Thunder Rosa, Madison Rayne, Athena/Ember Moon, Taya Valkyrie, and arguably Ruby Soho) - all she really could be expected to do was squash, because a lot of the AEW style of match formatting is the indie/PWG style of formatting which is basically "get your %*$@ in," multiple tight false finishes, and then whoever is going over goes over.  And the thing is, the last part (minus the false finishes) was basically the Goldberg formula, it's just that that formula was almost wholly one-sided  and Goldberg was, as a result, largely (for the peak of his career) an Ultimate Warrior redux with marginally better promo ability and marginally more humility (depending on who you listen to and how much stake you put in their opinions).  By all indications, Jade's ego is much more subdued - probably because of the people in the business that she gravitated to initially and surrounds herself with; namely Cody, Brandi (who's a grinder despite lack of outstanding talent at anything more than a personality), and this is where I think pairing her with Bianca is really beneficial.  Both are former competitive athletes and thus Bianca understands the mindset of where Jade is coming from, how to push her and when, and to constantly challenge her and give her goals to attain.

[Dr LBC]

6 hours ago, bcb1213 said:

i don't think it was the selling as much as the multi woman mayham.  It's easier to understand and think when it's you and one opponent.  It looked like her brain was moving slower than the others who have done it a ton.  The top rope thing was on her, but frankly, she shouldn't be doing that type of stuff anyhow, it's not necessary.  Be the power house

Or really she should learn to use that stuff very, very sparingly.  She has the athleticism that she can do it, but very similar to Brock when first breaking through, just because he can doesn't mean he should (at least not all the time).  You keep that in your back pocket as something special that you can throw out at marquee moments (culmination of big feuds, WrestleMania matches, first World title matches) in order to keep them special because of the rarity that the audience sees it from her.

If anything ,you definitely don't burn it into her arsenal now because, as development goes, the way you keep her from being another Goldberg is you have to make her more like Achilles, where - especially while she's still professionally young - as she gets in against some of the more experienced technical vets (Natalya, Shayna, Asuka if you rebuild her once she's fit again) she shows glimpses that she does have weaknesses or at minimum one weakness that a savvy technician can exploit.  That doesn't mean that those vets beat her, but the matches are much more competitive and Jade has to battle back into them and fight from underneath at one or several points.  And as much as I know people are going to hate it, I think the smart approach is that you have Jade's first clean loss come at the hands of the established best technical heel, which is Charlotte, because she doesn't really lose a ton in losing to Charlotte, but she also then has a redemption story arc whereby she has to expand her growth and expand her game, not just depending on power, but utilizing other parts of her superior athleticism and learning how to not have them negated purely by superior technique.  It's quite literally the historical story of MMA, and if you want to get really specific (there are some very clear parallels to Jon Jones' rise to stardom).  Jade's likely never going to get a great chain or catch wrestler, but she's never going to be presented as that.  But she also doesn't have to be built and presented as a Cena type either.

[StLunatic88]

33 minutes ago, Dr LBC said:

So if this is definitely the case then pairing Jade with Bianco out the gate makes a lot of sense if a heel Bianca is going to be Jade's first major feud, because Bianca will still be able to lead from the heel position and Jade can follow and still shine and be in a position to shine.

I would agree that pairing Jade up with Bianca as a mentor, a training partner even a stable mate is a very smart thing to do. Mainly for the reasons you already outlined. But putting them as a Tag Team and (rightfully) strapping the belts to them may have been an over reach, especially if Heel Bianca is to be Jades first big singles feud. Because right now, if they were to lock up, the ONLY believable outcome is a complete burial of Jade by Bianca. Yes you could run Bianca through a bunch of hoops for the match (injury, match type, Naomi in Jades corner, etc) but they are so mismatched when it comes to everything in ring, it’s laughable to think otherwise especially seeing them share the ring every week. It wouldn’t be 1-2-3 Kid level of shocker, but it would be extremely surprising. And more so could hurt Bianca for a while, especially if Jade struggles after when Bianca can’t carry her. 

Maybe they are setting up the downfall and redemption of Jade through the NXT pipeline. They have been willing to do those Squashes before (Lesnar over Cena) but that would take some balls from Hunter and some real self awareness and selflessness from Jade. It would also need to be something like a 18 month plan for Jade to do this properly (squash, disappear, swallow the pride and show up to HBKs office, work her way to a NA title match, win that belt, solid run, step up to the NXT Women’s champ, run through the rest of that division, make the jump back to the main roster, try to step to Bianca, have to earn that shot, win a cashable prize (MITB, QotR, Chamber, tournament) and then set up the return match against Bianca which could be any match but I can see them wanting it to be for a title). And while I know Trips loves the long form storytelling, All of that is a lot to commit to even for him. Unfortunately I’m worried we are headed for a rushed feud, that they try to make Jade look way better than she currently is, and it ends up hurting both of them in the immediate

 

37 minutes ago, Dr LBC said:

Or really she should learn to use that stuff very, very sparingly.  She has the athleticism that she can do it, but very similar to Brock when first breaking through, just because he can doesn't mean he should (at least not all the time).  You keep that in your back pocket as something special that you can throw out at marquee moments (culmination of big feuds, WrestleMania matches, first World title matches) in order to keep them special because of the rarity that the audience sees it from her.

I once had a pitch for Jade while she was still AEW (not sure I ever typed it out here) but it revolved around things like this, which would also build out her character more and make her more relatable, after they snapped the streak and she dropped the tbs Title. A Mortal Kobat inspired Tower Challenge, where she wanted a World Title shot, but the powers that be would put this in her way.  Each week we would have known her upcoming opponent, and early on she would be taking on a specialist where she would engage with them and have to learn a new wrestling skill from those matches. (A technical hold like a Texas Cloverleaf or a Torture Rack from Sarena Deeb, a Top Rope move from Riho, scrapping from Martinez, etc.) which you could still do a version of in the WWE, especially now when it’s so obvious that she has a lot more to learn as a wrestler. 

[Texansfan713]

The ending of Raw was freaking epic

[biggio7]

7 hours ago, Texansfan713 said:

The ending of Raw was freaking epic

I actually watched most of Raw just waiting to see what was going to happen. I'm curious to see what they'll do from here. I'd have them just show up at a match or two and just beat up everyone and leave. I do wish after Bo said 'we're here' he said, 'run.' That could have been a cool add in.

[StLunatic88]

9 hours ago, Texansfan713 said:

The ending of Raw was freaking epic

Seems like a pretty low bar for “epic”

[Dr LBC]

4 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

Seems like a pretty low bar for “epic”

I won't go so far as to call it epic.  It was intriguing, but as with almost all debuts/reveals it's as much about the follow-up as it is the reveal.  And I can see some holes that will need addressing.  Because they have the Netflix deal for RAW already in place, they can afford to get a little experimental in this lame duck period because they're playing with house money.  That said, because you've had these Wyatt Sick6 teases showing up on both RAW and Smackdown, I don't think you can keep them exclusively on RAW, because it undermines the entire gimmick.

I'm willing to give this some rope until we hear the "Why" of what they're doing.  If we get a solid "why," then this reveal has Nexus debut/destroying the ring potential.  But two things really stand out that need to be addressed for me:

1) I can take the dry ice and Halloween maze lighting and the lone cameraman allowed to walk through without being attacked, because at least the later part is fairly easily explained with story.  But aside from kooky visuals, they need to steer away from the supernatural stuffs.  The stark difference in the Levesque Era vs the VKM Era is that the former has embraced reality and realism wherever possible, with some sprinkling of goofy characters (because it's ultimately still a TV show and you still need comic relief even in a horror movie).

2) They need a more substantial victim than Chad Gable if they're going to be taken seriously.  I'm not saying they need to be injected into the main event or world title scene soon - in fact, I think that's where they did both of Bray's story arcs dirty, the character shouldn't really have give a crap about titles as anything more than tokens to dangle over the heads of people he was tormenting.  I think, because he's in line for a character change and he's almost certainly not going to win his belt back as MITB, you've got to have them shelve Seth, particularly if Seth comes back as a heel character because the heel rebuild of Seth isn't likely to give a crap about "getting revenge" on the faction that put him out, instead he's more than happy to let them cause chaos and seize on opportunities created by that chaos.  What really helped Nexus have the impact it did was that it was Cena who was the one they went after from jump.

Nikki looking like Samara from The Ring I can get past; it's not like wrestling hasn't borrowed heavily from cinema for a lot of the industry's history and the look can always be tweaked as needed.  But they really need to approach this faction as if they're from a Rob Zombie horror movie as opposed to a Clive Barker one.  Even more specific, you present them like the Firefly family (don't think that wasn't an obvious reference Bray was using from the start) in Devil's Rejects as opposed to from House of 1000 Corpses.  The former was more impactful because they were ultraviolent and psychotic, but they were also overtly nihilistic - it was less about power and more about feeding base instinct and desire.  They are, pure and simple, tools of vengeance and retribution (I hate using that word because of that effing faction) for the system that failed and derailed Bray whenever he got a good thing going.  But ultimately, they're a cult, plain and simple, you don't need supernatural stuff that goes beyond that - and you can actually tie in some loose ends like this is why Nikki Cross was having the catatonic moments around RR time.

But you've got to present, at the very least Nikki, in a very similar fashion to how she was in NXT - as someone that no one on the female roster wants to fight and they only end up doing so because they're contractually obligated or because Nikki doesn't give them a choice and blitzes them outright.  If the part of the "why" of the faction is that they don't care about championships, then there's no reason to even have the champion be concerned with her or interact - other than a heel champion maybe pulling strings to get their upcoming challenger booked against Nikki, who just goes ballistic and ends up getting herself disqualified ultimately, but still does her damage and gets her pound of flesh.

I think, not sold on but it could work as a long play, that you could actually give this legs by having it revealed that Uncle Howdy actually is Bo Dallas, because Bo's Bo-lieve character was motivational speaker that had some very David Karesh/Marshall Applewhite cult leader type elements to him, who was triggered by the death of his brother after compounded trauma of "the broken system" (you're never going to actually call Vince by name, but obscure references could go a long way) doing him wrong and making him, like the others, "a broken toy that was discarded by the man-child," after being forced to endure gimmicks like the Social Outcasts and Miztourage B-Team.  Even though it would have been obvious who he was under the mask, because they could really use some better in-ring quality than Rowan (who is effective) and Gacy (who is better than any of his NXT gimmicks let him show), this approach makes me really wish they hadn't let go of Jinder because he's playing the silent type, his character fits into the story arc perfectly too (though if they could also go out of get Heath Slater to the same effect).

[Jeezla]

Wyatt "Sicks", but only 5 members. Are they gonna reveal one more member? Alexa Bliss? Or is Bray an honorary member?

[Dr LBC]

18 hours ago, Jeezla said:

Wyatt "Sicks", but only 5 members. Are they gonna reveal one more member? Alexa Bliss? Or is Bray an honorary member?

It had been named Wyatt Sick6 all the way back when Bray was still alive and came up with the name.  So, unless I'm mistaken, it was intended that Howdy would be the 6th and Bray was already in the group.  So in answer to your question, your guess is as good as mine - though I would suppose it depends on how much legs they think/see this thing has.  If it's just a 1 season tribute angle to Windham and "finishing Bray's work," then the "6th" spot is likely an honorarium to Bray.  If it catches more legs, then maybe they bring in someone else.

Thing is, like I said above, it seems to fly in the face of the motivation that we've seen presented, thus far, for the group to have its member going after and carrying around big gold belts.  As is, they're going to have to finagle things to make it reasonable that members of a group that made their debut with a "massacre" where it was made to look like they killed (or damn near killed) people to respecting a 5-count break.  I think, regardless, you have to book them as absolute savages not too dissimilar - gimmick aside - to how the Wild Samoans were booked and presented.

[iknowcool]

As someone who has been a fan of the WWE since the day I was born... there is no way you could convince me this isn't the best it ever has been.  I thought it was good before WrestleMania, but it has been even better since.  Raw is must-watch TV and I didn't think that was possible with the 3 hour run-time.  

At the very least, when it comes to utilization of the entire roster and engaging stories, the only years that compare are 1997 and 2000.  Maybe 2002 too, but that is largely because of SmackDown.

Not saying it is flawless, but man it feels like every single superstar on the roster is being utilized and is currently involved in a story.  And tonight's SmackDown was just great.  Love love love the McIntyre/Punk segment.  That match is going to be fire.  And the debut of Jacob Fatu?  Yessir.

Edited June 22 by iknowcool

[beekay414]

Was Chicago chanting "We Want Roman" at Paul Heyman?

[beekay414]

5 minutes ago, iknowcool said:

As someone who has been a fan of the WWE since the day I was born... there is no way you could convince me this isn't the best it ever has been.  I thought it was good before WrestleMania, but it has been even better since.  Raw is must-watch TV and I didn't think that was possible with the 3 hour run-time.  

At the very least, when it comes to utilization of the entire roster and engaging stories, the only years that compare are 1997 and 2000.  Maybe 2002 too, but that is largely because of SmackDown.

Not saying it is flawless, but man it feels like every single superstar on the roster is being utilized and is currently involved in a story.  And tonight's SmackDown was just great.  Love love love the McIntyre/Punk segment.  That match is going to be fire.  And the debut of Jacob Fatu?  Yessir.

It's been awesome lately, that's for sure.

[iknowcool]

Tanga Loa has to be the worst member of the Bloodline and you can tell by how they have booked them that the WWE agrees.  But I suppose they can't all be good.