Official 2020 DL/EDGE Thread

[jrry32]

1 hour ago, Chrissooner49er said:

Do you think you have to hate the Bosas in order to like Young? That's the vibe I'm getting. Why? Because you entirely overlooked or dismissed (or have a selective memory) the core muscle surgery (sports hernia, rather painful!) he had to have after the 4th game That takes a minimum of 4-6 weeks to recover and he still would not have been his old self. By the time he would have been able to return, they were already out of title contention with that horrid loss to Purdue.

So yes, he did call it quits and prepare for the draft after an injury. Obviously, you don't like that. That's your prerogative. 

AND it's my prerogative to wonder why not do the Combine drills? The Bosa brothers did, Young did not. I wonder why? It may not be relevant, it might be. Only time will tell.

Bro, this is pure silliness. You can't attack Young for lacking "competitiveness" for skipping the Combine when you're not attacking a guy who left the team to protect his draft status. It's so brazenly hypocritical. MSURacer is an OSU fan. I imagine he has nothing against the Bosas. He's critiquing the double standard you're imposing on Chase Young.

[VanS]

3 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

You mean the guy who had a higher SPARQ rating than Garrett when they were both in high school?

Myles Garrett blew up the combine while Chase Young ducked all athletic testing. 

Plus I'm talking more about the tape.  When I watched Myles Garrett I was mindblown by his athleticism.  When I watch Chase Young I see just another guy.   I don't know how anyone could think they are comprable as athletes. 

[HTTRDynasty]

10 minutes ago, VanS said:

Myles Garrett blew up the combine while Chase Young ducked all athletic testing. 

Lol.  Imagine using this as proof that one is more athletic than the other.

10 minutes ago, VanS said:

Plus I'm talking more about the tape.  When I watched Myles Garrett I was mindblown by his athleticism.  When I watch Chase Young I see just another guy.   I don't know how anyone could think they are comprable as athletes. 

So at least we've established that this take is completely subjective.

What, in particular, could Garrett do that you think Young can't?

[Jeezla]

On 3/28/2020 at 8:11 PM, BayRaider said:

I love Alex Highsmith and Darrelll Taylor in the 3rd this year. We’re all looking for the next Maxx Crosby, and those are two candidates. I think Highsmith is better suited for a 3-4 though, but I think he can play in any scheme. 

Alton Robinson is more Crosby than either of them, but none of them are the next Crosby. 

Edited April 9, 2020 by Jeezla

[Awsi Dooger]

8 hours ago, lark25 said:

I’m not saying Young isn’t good I’m saying I’m not convinced he’s a great athlete. 

 

That's exactly where I am. Ohio State was still ridiculously underrated early in the 2019 season. I was watching game after game and wondering how the heck is this loaded team ranked 6th? One player after another was flashing extreme athletic ability. Chase Young was not among them. He does tons of little things well, especially at the beginning and end of a rush. He times the snap count. He senses the best route to the quarterback given how the pocket is evolving. He can get narrow and finish. But during the middle of the rush you can see he is not particularly explosive. It is a monotone delivery completely unlike legitimately explosive athletes like Cameron Wake, or Chaisson from this crop.

Chaisson is almost exactly the opposite of Young in that he doesn't do many things well play to play. That's why he gets stymied so often and his pressure rate is so low. But when he does guess correctly and everything unfolds for him he really uncoils and explodes to the quarterback. And it makes perfect sense based on the high school numbers. Chaisson had the 4.69 and 34 vertical while Young was 4.94 and 30 vertical.

As always, situational influence is in play. This forum was unaware of Chase Young's lousy high school test numbers. Therefore the expectation was that he would do the full combine. On other sites we had discussed Young's poor numbers for 5 or 6 months. Consequently there was plenty of discussion throughout that he would not do the combine. Nobody on those sites was surprised at how it played out. This forum was in denial so no kidding the rationalizations flow.

The latest rationalization is that because Myles Garrett had weak high school numbers and then improved dramatically at the combine, that means Chase Young would have done the same.

Wow, talk about incompetent grasp of probability. Every time I see an argument like that I wish the people involved would set the daily betting lines. Let's prize one example above the totality, above the power rating aspect. Outliers need to be our focus. What could possibly go wrong? I probably have an advantage as a Canes fan because there is a moderator on one of those sites who has charted the athletic profiling out of high school for years. As a rule it does not change markedly upon the combine. 

I linked a Lance Zierlein podcast interview the other day. During that podcast Zierlein emphasized that he talked to a scout one time who emphasized that sack totals are far more significant than pressure rate or pass rush win rate. The scout's rationale was that lots of guys can get near the quarterback, but only the truly special rushers know how to do all the little things well to finish it off. That makes a ton of sense to me. I have no idea why we give so much credit to almost. The 49ers had plenty of almosts on those final drives by Kansas City. Given more mobile quarterbacks these days the almosts turn into an escape in open territory and then resetting a suddenly evolving lethal route downfield. The best aspect of Chase Young's game is he does do all the little things well in the late stages of a pass rush. I think it will he clear fairly quickly on the NFL level that he succeeds on guile and otherwise is not the athlete some people want him to be. 

Edited April 9, 2020 by Awsi Dooger

[HTTRDynasty]

^ What is this word vomit?  I guess Isaiah Simmons running a 4.75 40 in HS was an outlier too?  How about Wirfs running a 5.29?

Do people not know what a strength and conditioning program is, or how much training goes into combine performances vs high school athletic testing?

[BayRaider]

2 hours ago, Jeezla said:

Alton Robinson is more Crosby than either of them, but none of them are the next Crosby. 

Next Crosby as in next great EDGE player from the 3rd/4th Round like Maxx/Yannick. 

[jrry32]

The analytics on Crosby's rookie year should make people a bit more hesitant on him. They indicate he's in for regression in terms of sack numbers. Now, he might well progress as a player and prove that wrong, but he converted a high percentage of pressures/rush wins into sacks as a rookie.

[holt_bruce81]

What is everyone's opinion on Jordan Elliott?

[MSURacerDT55]

8 hours ago, Chrissooner49er said:

Do you think you have to hate the Bosas in order to like Young? That's the vibe I'm getting. Why? Because you entirely overlooked or dismissed (or have a selective memory) the core muscle surgery (sports hernia, rather painful!) he had to have after the 4th game That takes a minimum of 4-6 weeks to recover and he still would not have been his old self. By the time he would have been able to return, they were already out of title contention with that horrid loss to Purdue.

So yes, he did call it quits and prepare for the draft after an injury. Obviously, you don't like that. That's your prerogative. 

AND it's my prerogative to wonder why not do the Combine drills? The Bosa brothers did, Young did not. I wonder why? It may not be relevant, it might be. Only time will tell.

Well your "vibes" are completely wrong, If you archive this forum years back, I was probably the both Bosas biggest advocate.

And im not going to argue with you, Ohio State won the 2014 National Championship after losing a regular season game to VT, thats neither here nor there, OSU insiders said he could have been back in a month, he chose to prepare for the draft, it is what it is...

And guaranteed GMs value staying and grinding through the highs and lows of a season over participating at the combine. Second of all, his agent could have told him not to participate at risk of injury.

Edited April 10, 2020 by MSURacerDT55

[MrOaktown_56]

3 hours ago, jrry32 said:

The analytics on Crosby's rookie year should make people a bit more hesitant on him. They indicate he's in for regression in terms of sack numbers. Now, he might well progress as a player and prove that wrong, but he converted a high percentage of pressures/rush wins into sacks as a rookie.

He has a lot of development to do in terms of power/technique. Made a ton of splash plays as a rookie. Hoping he can continue to ascend...

[VanS]

9 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

What, in particular, could Garrett do that you think Young can't?

Garrett is more explosive, had far greater bend around the edge, and is better at converting speed to power.  Essentially he's better than Young at everything related to physicality when it comes to playing defensive end.  Myles Garrett's first step explosion, bend, and speed to power are as good as anyone I've ever seen.  Chase Young showed me little in the way of explosiveness or bend.  He's got good power but I don't know how well that will translate against NFL tackles who are much stronger than the guys he faced in college. 

All in all, every time I saw Myles Garrett in college take a snap he popped on screen.  On the other hand, Chase Young looked like just another guy for most of the game until he made his one or two splash plays.

[VanS]

9 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

^ What is this word vomit?  I guess Isaiah Simmons running a 4.75 40 in HS was an outlier too?  How about Wirfs running a 5.29?

Do people not know what a strength and conditioning program is, or how much training goes into combine performances vs high school athletic testing?

Those guys went to the combine and proved they were better from their high school testing numbers.  Chase Young hasn't.  As of now the only testing numbers we have from him are from high school and they were lousy.  You can't try to use the fact other players improved their athleticism since high school to say Chase Young did the same as well.  That my friend would be a logical fallacy.

[jrry32]

5 minutes ago, VanS said:

Those guys went to the combine and proved they were better from their high school testing numbers.  Chase Young hasn't.  As of now the only testing numbers we have from him are from high school and they were lousy.  You can't try to use the fact other players improved their athleticism since high school to say Chase Young did the same as well.  That my friend would be a logical fallacy.

No, we can use common sense to do that. If you think that a guy who went and played three years for Ohio State and aged from 18 to 21 years old didn't develop physically during that time, you aren't worth a conversation. You're quickly going from being contrary because you have unique takes to being contrary because you want attention in my book, Van. Use your noggin.

[VanS]

17 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

No, we can use common sense to do that. If you think that a guy who went and played three years for Ohio State and aged from 18 to 21 years old didn't develop physically during that time, you aren't worth a conversation. You're quickly going from being contrary because you have unique takes to being contrary because you want attention in my book, Van. Use your noggin.

Alvin Kamara didn't improve his numbers after 4 years of college.  Landon Collins didn't either.  There are other examples that I don't have time to look up.  But its not a guarantee that every athlete improves physically from the time they leave high school to when they leave college.  Some players reach their physical peak earlier than others.