Josh Allen vs Sam Darnold, better sophomore strides?

[Elky]

On 6/17/2019 at 9:14 PM, VanS said:

You're only saying that because Mahomes had one of the best statistical seasons in NFL history for a QB.   You probably wouldn't have said that at this time last year.  Josh Allen went higher in his draft than Mahomes went in his.  So at least according to the NFL Josh Allen was the more highly touted prospect entering the draft.

I try not to be prisoner of the moment.  I had Josh Allen rated as a better prospect coming into the NFL than Patrick Mahomes.  And there's nothing I saw from Josh Allen as a rookie to make me change my mind.  His physical tools (in particular as a runner) were even better than I anticipated.  

Now I will admit that Mahomes has exceeded my expectations for him.  I thought he would be a fringe Pro Bowl QB like Matt Stafford.  I didn't expect him to be a 1st team All-Pro NFL MVP caliber player.   With that said I think 2018 could be his high water mark like 1984 was for Dan Marino.  I know everyone expects Mahomes to repeat what he did last year.  I don't.  I believe he and the Chiefs take a step back while Josh Allen and Buffalo take a huge step forward.

Josh Allen will prove in 2019 that he's on that Patrick Mahomes tier.

Good freaking Lord dude just stopped posting.

[Danger]

2 hours ago, HoboRocket said:

To pair with that, I think that Allen's supporting cast improved more than Darnolds' overall. Let's compare apples to apples with what they GAINED (since that's all that's relevant to how much their supporting cast improved on-paper): 

Darnold gained Le'Veon Bell and Kelechi Osemele. Two very high-quality players. A very good guard and a very good running back. Cool. We all know that Bell is pretty good, but a lot of running backs are these days. Bell is a proven All-Pro, so he should be a top-six or so talent-wise, up there with Todd Gurley, Ezekiel Elliott, Saquon Barkley, James Conner, Christian McCaffrey, Alvin Kamara, Melvin Gordon, David Johnson, Joe Mixon, Marlon Mack, Philip Lindsay, Mark Ingram, Kenyan Drake, Nick Chubb, Kareem Hunt, LeSean McCoy, Chris Carson and Devonta Freeman. So that's great for their running game. He also got a nice slot receiver in Jamison Crowder. Crowder was Washington's top offensive weapon for a few years, but never really was an elite game-changer. More of a guy who has nice hands and can work underneath routes. He'll turn targets into receptions and yards. He's not bad, but was more along the lines of a Cole Beasley. Good option on third down. Sadly, Trevon Wesco was the only help they gave Darnold through the draft. I like Wesco, but he doesn't have elite athleticism or anything.

Josh Allen gained a starting-caliber tackle in free agency in Ty Nsekhe. He's been a stud as a fill-in while playing for Washington. He also got Mitch Morse, a fantastic center who was very good for the Kansas City Chiefs during Mahomes' run at MVP. Allen also gained Spencer Long, who was good at times in Washington and terrible at times with the Jets. He got Quinton Spain, who was pretty solid for the most part with the Titans over the past three seasons. He got Cody Ford via the draft, who could be a really great guard or maybe even tackle for the Bills.

As far as weapons go, the Bills spent a third-round pick on Devin Singletary, who was one of my favorite runningbacks this year. They also drafted TE Dawson Knox, who is an athletic freak and played very well at Ole Miss, but was criminally underused. They signed John Brown, who is yet another dynamic deep threat to add to the Bills' roster who has flashed as a #1 WR at times throughout his career, as well as Cole Beasley, who is a fine checkdown piece. 

Overall, Allen has the most improved supporting cast. He's the harder worker. He has the higher athletic ceiling. And, to go with all of that, he has a lower benchmark for improvement. All signs point to both improving, but Allen will likely improve by a greater amount. We have yet to see who will actually be better in year two.

 

I really couldn't disagree more. All the players the Bills added seem like mediocre starters/poor role players in my eyes. Devin Singletary I have absolutely zero expectations for. I wouldn't have drafted him any earlier than the 6th round, if that. Not trying to take shots, I just don't think the Bills really added anyone who is going to have a significant impact. Sure they may be better than what was there, but none of them are players that can really dictate a game what so ever if you ask me.

[Chargers]

Josh Allen will show more improvement. I think the Bills are going to be real good this year.

[NJC33]

9 hours ago, HoboRocket said:

He's the harder worker.

Darnold has been credited for his work ethic/character since entering the league and there is no evidence to suggest Allen is the harder worker. 

 

As for the question who improves more, I think you bring up a valid point regarding benchmarks for improvement, but I still lean toward Darnold, particularly because of how he closed out the final stretch of the season. Over the last 3 weeks Darnold was the highest rated quarterback in the league according to PFF. I know it's an extremely small sample size but ever since he returned from injury in week 13 it seemed like the game really slowed down for him. Don't forget he began the season as the youngest starting QB in NFL history, so there was always going to be an adjustment process. I also think the addition of Adam Gase will be huge for Darnolds development, our offensive coaching staff was arguably the worst in the league last year and did nothing to help Darnold succeed. 

 

Either way I think both players showed enough potential to be special in this league. 

[HoboRocket]

18 hours ago, NJC33 said:

Darnold has been credited for his work ethic/character since entering the league and there is no evidence to suggest Allen is the harder worker. 

 

As for the question who improves more, I think you bring up a valid point regarding benchmarks for improvement, but I still lean toward Darnold, particularly because of how he closed out the final stretch of the season. Over the last 3 weeks Darnold was the highest rated quarterback in the league according to PFF. I know it's an extremely small sample size but ever since he returned from injury in week 13 it seemed like the game really slowed down for him. Don't forget he began the season as the youngest starting QB in NFL history, so there was always going to be an adjustment process. I also think the addition of Adam Gase will be huge for Darnolds development, our offensive coaching staff was arguably the worst in the league last year and did nothing to help Darnold succeed. 

 

Either way I think both players showed enough potential to be special in this league. 

Well, and you can really credit Darnold for how well he started his rookie season. He was extremely impressive while being the youngest starting QB ever. Of course, you had the middle of the season injury/rough patch, but I think just about every rookie QB besides Lamar Jackson had that. Now, Darnold still had a fantastic finish to the season, so, normally, I'd be able to guarantee that Josh Allen would have the biggest improvement between Week 17 of 2018 and Week 1 of 2019, but he obliterated the Dolphins. 

Rookie averages aside, it'll be both really interesting and exciting to see who improves the most from Week 17 to Week 1 (as well as the same but from their rookie seasons to their sophomore seasons as a whole.)

[bigbadbuff23835]

On 6/20/2019 at 11:34 AM, Danger said:

I really couldn't disagree more. All the players the Bills added seem like mediocre starters/poor role players in my eyes. Devin Singletary I have absolutely zero expectations for. I wouldn't have drafted him any earlier than the 6th round, if that. Not trying to take shots, I just don't think the Bills really added anyone who is going to have a significant impact. Sure they may be better than what was there, but none of them are players that can really dictate a game what so ever if you ask me.

Been saying this about their skill position players, however the offensive line upgrade cannot be dismissed. Going to be night and day in terms of upgrade from last year.

Instead if counting on the likes of Brown, and Beasley we should be counting on Zay, and Foster to continue improving. We know what Brown/Beasley are at this point.

[Daniel]

I hated Allen as a prospect, so I'm hoping I can salvage the correctness of my opinion.  Darnold, for 100% selfish and shallow reasons.

That said, Allen has more room to improve than Darnold, so there's that.  Either way, I definitely expect Darnold to be better than Allen by a substantial margin.

[Elky]

On 6/16/2019 at 4:34 PM, VanS said:

Josh Allen will be one of the leading candidates for league MVP this year.  So easily him.

I like Darnold too.  He's gonna be a really good franchise QB.  But Josh Allen is on another level.  He'll be on that Patrick Mahomes tier.

 

 

 

You were saying?

[Daniel]

Did they both really look as bad as their stat lines suggested?

[Trentwannabe]

49 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Did they both really look as bad as their stat lines suggested?

The two picks for Allen weren't completely on him (one tipped at the line and the other hit off Beasley hands) but he also had a bad INT called back for a penalty and another flat out dropped by Marcus Maye. One fumble was his fault the other the C took blame for I believe.

He completed 64 percent and threw for 254 though so that is a nice sign lol.

[Kmart128]

1 hour ago, Trentwannabe said:

The two picks for Allen weren't completely on him (one tipped at the line and the other hit off Beasley hands) but he also had a bad INT called back for a penalty and another flat out dropped by Marcus Maye. One fumble was his fault the other the C took blame for I believe.

He completed 64 percent and threw for 254 though so that is a nice sign lol.

That completion percentage is huge for him. That is what he consistently gets knocked on by media and fans. Well after just one week it shows signs of a huge improvement in his game. And that completion percentage includes numerous throw aways he had. 

[Forge]

1 hour ago, Trentwannabe said:

The two picks for Allen weren't completely on him (one tipped at the line and the other hit off Beasley hands) but he also had a bad INT called back for a penalty and another flat out dropped by Marcus Maye. One fumble was his fault the other the C took blame for I believe.

He completed 64 percent and threw for 254 though so that is a nice sign lol.

I watched about 80% of the game, and I agree. The first pass had horrible ball placement, but still should have been caught. The second was tipped at the line, so hard to do anything there. Humorously, the one interception that didn't count was the one that was fully on him. 

His ball placement was less than ideal throughout the game, very inconsistent and off center,  but he was often throwing catchable balls, and that's big for him because he's been known to just throw a ball nowhere near his receivers. 

[Trentwannabe]

12 hours ago, Forge said:

His ball placement was less than ideal throughout the game, very inconsistent and off center,  but he was often throwing catchable balls, and that's big for him because he's been known to just throw a ball nowhere near his receivers. 

Yeah his ball placement will likely always be an issue and could limit YAC ability. However, at least off the top of my head I can't recall any throw from yesterday where I said "who the heck was that to?!" which is a nice change lol.

His other two almost INTs were horrible though and him trusting his arm way too much. Something I think he'll always do.

[VanS]

On 9/8/2019 at 1:32 PM, Elky said:

You were saying?

Still like Josh Allen.  But Darnold has also impressed me this year so far.  He looks way better than he did last year.

Its only one week.  Lets see how the season plays out.

[El Ramster]

Sam Darnold is the most overrated QB I’ve ever seen the last 15 years.. His stock and just himself reminds me so much of Matt Leiner. Its

unreal and im still shocked he went that high.

hes just so Avg. I never saw Josh Allen play so I can’t say much.