The Mass Exodus (cuts to 53)

[MrOaktown_56]

18 hours ago, Silver&Black88 said:

I mean.  We have 3 edge rushers on our roster now.  3.  Our only rusher after our starters is James Cowser.  Not to be rude but please tell me how waving Lewis was the right move.  Sure, other teams made cuts too but Lewis was a gamer.  He might not pan out to be anything at all, but we need more than the rushers we have.  And Calhoun wasn't good enough either.  Maybe Lewis was competing against Cowser at the same position like a few other posters said, but is no one else super concerned with our pass rusher depth?  It feels like we got weaker after preseason at CB, LB, and now Edge Rusher too.  At least the overall impression is. And its not like we were a good defense to begin with.

 

BP is right.  Barring a surprise, we're probably the new Saints.

3

"Well I trust the coaching staff's evaluation 100% more than yours"... smh.

This is looking bad. Our depth is literally awful and we didn't keep Lewis. Unless he somehow was garbage in practice, the dude had some good bend and athleticism to at least be developed and obviously had a different skillset for the edge than Cowser. He wasn't a big guy, but as a situational rusher, he had some potential. I don't blame him for signing with Houston when he showed out for us and we showed no faith in him by giving him a roster spot.

 

As far as LB, Gerald Hodges is now a free agent. He's pretty young, has played some good to decent football, and is available likely for cheap. If we don't at least offer him something, I'm gonna be seriously concerned. I have no problem with RM wanting to roll with young guys, but not even bringing veterans in for competition seems questionable. I find it hard to believe every single defensive free agent we liked was "priced out" significantly and the fact that our one defensive free agent signing is now gone is questionable as well.

[MrOaktown_56]

21 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

 

This is a very good point Holyghost and in stark contracts to our Offence. With the O we know we have a big, mean OL and want to run the ball down peoples throats, combined with some deep threats and plenty of screens passes. We have an identity and we are bringing in guys who fit the scheme like the big OL maulers and the power back in Lynch. It's been a recurring theme on D that the 'scheme' is a mish-mash of the Seahawks 4-3 but also with elements of a 3-4 and previous JDR defences with 2 very large run stuffer DTs in the middle also previously used. To be frank, I think we've probably spent too much time trying to be 'versatile' and multi-faceted and are now faced with a D that doesn't really have an identity at all.

I for one would much rather we played a simple 3-4 defence fast and accurately than try to play 2 or 3 different versatile schemes poorly which is what we seem to be doing, I don't know for sure that this is a cause but it seems likely that the lack of cohesion and blown assignments could also be in part down to playing such a varied and versatile system, especially with a bulk of young players and rookies who are trying to learn maybe too much too soon.

3

If we're running Seattle's scheme, there's no proof that it can be effective elsewhere besides Seattle.

 

Let's compare Seattle's personnel to ours:

Safety:

2 of the best, most unique safeties to play the game.

Us:

Some potential, but nothing close to Seattle's.

Corner:

Sherman and Lane, plus excellent DB development and coaching.

Us:

Some potential but nothing proven

Defensive Line/3rd down pass rush:

Maybe the best nickel package in the NFL in terms of generating pressure (Bennett, Richardson, Clark, and Avril)

Us:

MEJ, Mack, and Irvin and a bunch of unknowns

Linebacker:

2 of the best off ball linebackers in the game

Us:

???

 

Seattle uses a phenomenal 4 man rush and unreal safety/linebacker play to run their scheme effectively. We don't have a super effective 4 man rush, or great safety or linebacker play. That sticks out as a huge problem. I think it's more realistic that we play more man coverage and press as opposed to hoping we add 4 all pros at positions of need that allow us to play this scheme.

Amerson, Smith, and Conley can all play man coverage better than they play zone IMO. Obviously, Smith is best in press, but the other 2 can play off man reasonably well too.

I'd be happier seeing us run more cover 1 than running cover 3, where we don't have earl thomas' range on the back end. More disguise and blitz creativity would be nice too.

[oakdb36]

Who's slated to start at 3T as far as the preseason could tell?

[Rich7sena]

56 minutes ago, oakdb36 said:

Who's slated to start at 3T as far as the preseason could tell?

My best guess would be Autry, but I anticipate a steady dose of Ward, Vanderdoes, and Latham.

[NightTrainLane]

Looking at the defense, it's pretty much what we thought it would be going into camp.

The injury to Jenkins hurts because it's the position group most were worried about (ILB). But past that there were no big surprises. Many wanna say that Lewis was a surprise not making the 53 but even when an UDFA like him has a few nice plays in preseason that doesn't mean they are ready for primetime. The team wanted to develop him but he choose to go closer to his hometown and help his family, which isn't surprising with what is going on in Houston.

So we have - 

DT - Ellis, Vanderdoes, Lathum, Hestor

DE - Edwards, Ward, Autry

OLB/EDGE - Mack, Irvin, Cowser

ILB - James, Lee, Adams, Marrow

DB - Smith, Amerson, Carrie, Conley, McDonald, Hamilton

S - Nelson, Joesph, Obi, Luani, (McGill)

I think the only change coming would be McGill getting added to the IR after the season starts so he can be brought back if needed and us adding someone else at the LB position in his place.

[raidr4life]

2 hours ago, Darbsk said:

 

This is a very good point Holyghost and in stark contracts to our Offence. With the O we know we have a big, mean OL and want to run the ball down peoples throats, combined with some deep threats and plenty of screens passes. We have an identity and we are bringing in guys who fit the scheme like the big OL maulers and the power back in Lynch. It's been a recurring theme on D that the 'scheme' is a mish-mash of the Seahawks 4-3 but also with elements of a 3-4 and previous JDR defences with 2 very large run stuffer DTs in the middle also previously used. To be frank, I think we've probably spent too much time trying to be 'versatile' and multi-faceted and are now faced with a D that doesn't really have an identity at all.

I for one would much rather we played a simple 3-4 defence fast and accurately than try to play 2 or 3 different versatile schemes poorly which is what we seem to be doing, I don't know for sure that this is a cause but it seems likely that the lack of cohesion and blown assignments could also be in part down to playing such a varied and versatile system, especially with a bulk of young players and rookies who are trying to learn maybe too much too soon.

And I think you touched on it earlier, but this every player has to be versatile, i think kind of hurts, nobody is able to master a position.

[holyghost]

2 hours ago, Darbsk said:

 

This is a very good point Holyghost and in stark contracts to our Offence. With the O we know we have a big, mean OL and want to run the ball down peoples throats, combined with some deep threats and plenty of screens passes. We have an identity and we are bringing in guys who fit the scheme like the big OL maulers and the power back in Lynch. It's been a recurring theme on D that the 'scheme' is a mish-mash of the Seahawks 4-3 but also with elements of a 3-4 and previous JDR defences with 2 very large run stuffer DTs in the middle also previously used. To be frank, I think we've probably spent too much time trying to be 'versatile' and multi-faceted and are now faced with a D that doesn't really have an identity at all.

I for one would much rather we played a simple 3-4 defence fast and accurately than try to play 2 or 3 different versatile schemes poorly which is what we seem to be doing, I don't know for sure that this is a cause but it seems likely that the lack of cohesion and blown assignments could also be in part down to playing such a varied and versatile system, especially with a bulk of young players and rookies who are trying to learn maybe too much too soon.

Yep, you said it. Even on offense there are minor identity issues but we have a MUCH clearer idea of who we are. 

I don't think any fan can say now if we are a Seattle hybrid, 3-4, 4-3? We've seen them play all of these, and draft and sign different player types with all of those defenses seemingly in mind. But there's never been a hard and defined transition into any one of them. And however it seems the pieces do fit, we're not really playing it that way. So we're not fitting personnel to a system, and we're not fitting a system to our players either....

For instance with a guy like Sean Smith. Why is he not pressing, as it is the only way he can play at his size? Where does Joseph play exactly? Why is Nelson in so much space if he cannot cover it at his age and speed? How are 3 large tweener types between 280 and 295 expected to play snaps at end if we are not a 3-4? Who is our nose? Do we have a true nose, or a backup for that matter? Do we even play one in the system? What the heck position does Irvin really play? It's not the 4-3 SLB we all used to know, because the Raiders had a 4-3 forever and they never rushed that player all the time. In fact our old 4-3 SLB covered alot if I remember right. Where does a guy like Nick Morrow (I like him but he raises questions too) possibly fit in our LB chart? You can even look at the depth chart and it raises questions.. Joseph, Melifonwu, Luani are listed at SS in that order, Nelson's current backup is McGill?! Why do we then have 2 tiny box safeties and one massive one? So much stuff makes no sense.

If I can't tell what the heck the defense even is, the issue is pulsating neon. I'm no defense expert but I know some basics. We're not even hitting the basics on identity. We got pulled along on some sort of rebuild plan that was vaguely outlined 2 years ago when the staff took over. It started as a mild transition out of the 4-3 we were in. But it never moved out of vague into any clarity on what we're moving into. And never deifnitively moved into anything else other than the idea of "multiple". "Multiple" is a pretty crappy plan for a defense unless you have a roster of 120 players and 30 more defensive coaches to teach them with 2 weeks between every game and a 6 month training camp. 

[RaidersAreOne]

Raiders signed the GOAT Max Valles to the PS! Who remembers him?

[Rich7sena]

Honestly the Raiders defense isn't really all that complex - especially last year - and that's part of the problem. The defensive scheme is predicated on guys winning their one-on-ones and the team simply doesn't have the talent to do so on a down to down basis. It wasn't until later in the year did the team start playing more two high to mitigate big plays, but that obviously takes players away from an already shaky front 7. It also didn't work very well.

The team could really benefit from defensive play calling that hides players' weaknesses (zone, blitzing).

[raidr4life]

17 minutes ago, RaidersAreOne said:

Raiders signed the GOAT Max Valles to the PS! Who remembers him?

I like him, still has a chance to be something. Came out of college early and was raw. Bills signed him to there 53 off our PS. Now they have a new coach who has been cleaning house, and he's only 23 years old.

[RaidersAreOne]

1 minute ago, raidr4life said:

I like him, still has a chance to be something. Came out of college early and was raw. Bills signed him to there 53 off our PS. Now they have a new coach who has been cleaning house, and he's only 23 years old.

I saw PFF has him as the 3rd most pressures all preseason. 

[Gaetano]

So we just worked out Mike Nugent, Josh Lambo, and some other K I really dont recognize at all.

 

And I'm fine with parting with Jano, but why now? Season is about to start.. is there some big extension that needs to happen right now, that can't wait until the offseason? 

[Silver&Black88]

Just gonna try and do some quick hits:

4 hours ago, holyghost said:

For instance with a guy like Sean Smith. Why is he not pressing, as it is the only way he can play at his size?

Good question.  Better question: why do we play so much zone when we have man CBs?

4 hours ago, holyghost said:

Where does Joseph play exactly? Why is Nelson in so much space if he cannot cover it at his age and speed?... Joseph, Melifonwu, Luani are listed at SS in that order, Nelson's current backup is McGill?! Why do we then have 2 tiny box safeties and one massive one? So much stuff makes no sense....

Not sure with Joseph.  He's great in run support and after the catch, but he isn't the best in coverage.  So maybe SS?  Or we're gonna do a S1/S2 thing?  Nelson because he is opportunistic and gets turnovers sometimes.  But also because we can't count on Joseph in coverage totally yet and Luani is a 7th round rook (but maybe he can man the CF Nate Allen role eventually).  Either way kind of concerning for both.  McGill is weird since he's hurt and taking up space on the 53....as a STer because we're screwed if he ever plays DB.  I mean, I know we lost core ST guys but maybe that spot could have gone to someone else.

I think Obi plays more LB.  More on that later.

 

4 hours ago, holyghost said:

How are 3 large tweener types between 280 and 295 expected to play snaps at end if we are not a 3-4? Who is our nose? Do we have a true nose, or a backup for that matter? Do we even play one in the system? What the heck position does Irvin really play? It's not the 4-3 SLB we all used to know, because the Raiders had a 4-3 forever and they never rushed that player all the time. In fact our old 4-3 SLB covered alot if I remember right. 

Jelly is nose, with no back up (shout out to me in the other thread).    Its like a 3T/5T front with Jelly manning the 1T and Mack playing LEO.  Similar to Seattle I think.  So Irvin plays close to the line as SLB in a 4-3 under front.  Except sometimes his hand is in the dirt.  Also its kind of a 3-4 in that way but not really since he and Mack aren't both standing.  Which goes back to lack of identity in favor of being multiple.

 

4 hours ago, holyghost said:

Where does a guy like Nick Morrow (I like him but he raises questions too) possibly fit in our LB chart? You can even look at the depth chart and it raises questions.

I have a strong feeling we play Morrow and Obi at linebacker in Nickel to try and help against tight ends.  Lee just is going to get wrecked in obvious passing situations.  Which leaves James at MIKE with Adams as his back up.  I don't love it either, but its the best we have in this situation from what I see.  Maybe we sign a LB.

[NightTrainLane]

7 hours ago, RaidersAreOne said:

Raiders signed the GOAT Max Valles to the PS! Who remembers him?

I called it haha! I knew he'd be back.

[NightTrainLane]

6 hours ago, Gaetano said:

So we just worked out Mike Nugent, Josh Lambo, and some other K I really dont recognize at all.

 

And I'm fine with parting with Jano, but why now? Season is about to start.. is there some big extension that needs to happen right now, that can't wait until the offseason? 

It's being done because of a combination of things. Jano has a bad back currently and we are getting concerned about him playing in regular season games. Secondly he is on a 4mil deal that that becomes fully guaranteed on Sat. 1/17th of the deal is guaranteed on Tues.