Who will win league MVP?!?!

[I <3 Faulk]

20 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Can we just acknowledge that Brady was the favorite to win MVP before Wentz went down and that Wentz was leading him in exactly one stat (touchdowns) when he went down

I think the general consensus  was that Wentz was hands down the MVP that year.  I thought he was anyways.  Maybe I'm remembering wrong.  

Edited September 1, 2019 by I <3 Faulk

[Nabbs4u]

12 minutes ago, I <3 Faulk said:

I think the general consensus  was that Wentz was hands down the MVP that year.  I thought he was anyways.  Maybe I'm remembering wrong.  

You're not. Like with Mahomes, Wentz coming out of nowhere and putting not only stats up like he was but the media infatuation with him and the Eagles on it's way to a 13-3 , 14-2 Type record would of won him MVP most likely. Yes even over Brady who was doing the same.

However the Universe works in mysterious ways because Wentz not winning was the best thing that ever happened to the Eagles. League MVP's rarely win the SB in the same season. At least statistically over the past 20yrs.

Congrats to Tom! 🍺

[diamondbull424]

7 hours ago, thanosbrady said:

if mvp was actually the most valuable player itd be brady but the nfl wants to try and pimp out a new star lol

Let’s be real. The Patriots have the GOAT at HC and won 10 games with Matt Cassel at QB the season Brady went down. Brady isn’t the most valuable for that reason alone.

If the award truly went to the most valuable player than I’d say Big Ben should have won a few of those awards, especially when they had those garbage OLs. But that’s besides the point.

[diamondbull424]

In terms of MVP I’m down for a Mahomes repeat, though with Vic Fangion now in that division, that might not be a safe bet.

I don’t want to be a homer, but if the Ravens finish with a really good record (something like 13-3 or so) and Lamar has a top 3 fantasy impact (somewhat long shots for both things happening)... I could see him winning the award.

Ultimately though, I think it’s going to go to a veteran who makes some noise. Aaron Rodgers and Matt Ryan will probably take it. Of the two, I’ll go with Matt Ryan. He’s got a stacked offense, plays mostly in domes or in good conditions. And coming off a bad season, him crushing it and making the playoffs will give him media clout.

Edited September 2, 2019 by diamondbull424

[lancerman]

5 hours ago, I <3 Faulk said:

I think the general consensus  was that Wentz was hands down the MVP that year.  I thought he was anyways.  Maybe I'm remembering wrong.  

 

5 hours ago, Nabbs4u said:

You're not. Like with Mahomes, Wentz coming out of nowhere and putting not only stats up like he was but the media infatuation with him and the Eagles on it's way to a 13-3 , 14-2 Type record would of won him MVP most likely. Yes even over Brady who was doing the same.

However the Universe works in mysterious ways because Wentz not winning was the best thing that ever happened to the Eagles. League MVP's rarely win the SB in the same season. At least statistically over the past 20yrs.

Congrats to Tom! 🍺

No actually he is. Immediately before Wentz went down Brady was the favorite to win MVP. That's not just my opinion. That's what the odds makers actually thought. 

Pretty much the whole season the narrative was that Brady and Wentz were neck and neck with Brady being monster for like 75% of the season but Wentz came out of nowhere and was ahead record wise by one win and was ahead in TD's. Those were the only stats Wentz notably beat Brady in, but they are important to MVP. Then the Eagles lost and the Pats were tied with them and it was pretty much viewed as Brady now took a definitive lead now that one of the two key pieces to Wentz' argument was gone. Even on here the threads reflected the same notion, they were all basically a variation of "Brady's better in virtually every stat except TD's and wins where Wentz has a slight lead in wins and a decent lead in TD's, but overall Brady is playing better". 

What happened ultimately was that Brady didn't play as well down the stretch the last few weeks, so if Wentz played how he was projecting to, he probably would have won. But you can't go by that. If Brady played how he was projected to, he probably wins. The fact was you had Brady with a moderate lead ahead of Wentz and Brady slowed down but Wentz was injured which was worse for his chances. Also retroactively I think a lot of people looked at where Brady's stats ended up, and thought "oh he wasn't really that far ahead of him". This is mostly because in the last 5 games of the season, Brady had 4 games with a sub 90 passer rating (but this was mostly after Wentz was out) and he had multiple INT's in every one of those last 5 games which drastically altered his stats. So in hindsight, Wentz looked a lot better statistically than he really was when he went down. When he went down, the only true advantage he had over Brady was the fact that he had more TD's. That was literally the only case Wentz had at that point. 

It's just that because Brady slowed down, his win became a lot more underwhelming so a narrative formed that Brady only got it because of Wentz going down. That wasn't nearly how it was via the betting books or the media narrative. They were relative close all year and Brady was pulling ahead before Wentz went down. 

But the reality is, if the regular season ended the minute Wentz went down, Brady is the MVP. If Wentz played the whole season and finished the same as he had been playing, he probably would have outpaced Brady and taken it. 

[lancerman]

1 hour ago, diamondbull424 said:

Let’s be real. The Patriots have the GOAT at HC and won 10 games with Matt Cassel at QB the season Brady went down. Brady isn’t the most valuable for that reason alone.

If the award truly went to the most valuable player than I’d say Big Ben should have won a few of those awards, especially when they had those garbage OLs. But that’s besides the point.

That's a really terrible argument for multiple reasons that have been discussed many times here. Matt Cassel inherited the best Patriots team of the Belichick era (which Brady went 16-0 on) and had a schedule where he played 2 divisions with one winning team amongst all 8 teams and that team had a 9-7 record. He only beat 3 winning teams (that 9-7 team and two divisional teams he split with). 

Put it this way, if Cassel couldn't make the playoffs under THOSE circumstances, there was no Patriots team that they won the Super Bowl with that Cassel going to lead to the playoffs. 

And no Ben won a Super Bowl playing with a 22 passer rating. That is garbage. The 2nd Super Bowl he won, he won with an insane defense (probably better than any either Brady or Manning had). Then he dissapointed in the playoffs for years with Bell and Brown. Hell he hasn't led his team to a one seed in the conference a single time since 04 as a rookie when he wasn't playing well. He's only even been a two seed 3 times, despite being on one of the most consistent teams of the past decade a half. I don't get why he is more worthy. Hell he's never even been an All Pro. 

[JAF-N72EX]

16 hours ago, SkippyX said:

I always find this logic to be meaningless. Every player runs a system. Rodgers and Brady run intricate systems.

Joe Montana was just a schlub but SYSTEM is where this absurdity leads.

You get to pretend Foles AND Wentz are not good QBs.

Did you spend all last season talking about Andy Reid’s SYSTEM?

Do any Reid / Pederson QBs get credit for not McNabbing all over themselves on a regular basis?

Maybe we should close the HOF and open a Hall of Systems.

Could you also tell us who can READ DEFENSES while you are at it?

Huge difference here. Montana, Brady and Rodgers are 3 of the best QB's to ever play the game and Wentz is not. They are so naturally gifted at the QB position that the offensive schemes built around them wouldn't make TOO much of a difference. You could throw them on every team and they would succeed. 

And Mahomes has Ried, yes, but he was not just a "good" QB either.....he broke records! A QB does not do what Mahomes did last year just because of coaching. Did Reid play a part in his development, absolutely. No doubt about it. Reid is QB guru and the best there is in the NFL. But to say a single coach is responsible for doing what Mahomes did would be ridiculous. 

And yes, I have been saying for years that Alex Smith's success had more due with Reid than Smith--just like almost everyone else did and for good reasons. 

Now if Wentz(or any other player) has the type of year that Mahommes had then I'll eat my words and put it all on Wentz. But if he wins MVP just because he has routine good year on a winning team in the same system that Nick freaking FOles had success in, then hell no. It's easy to throw the ball to wide open receivers.  

Edited September 2, 2019 by JustAnotherFan

[Hunter2_1]

8 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

Let’s be real. The Patriots have the GOAT at HC and won 10 games with Matt Cassel at QB the season Brady went down. Brady isn’t the most valuable for that reason alone.

If the award truly went to the most valuable player than I’d say Big Ben should have won a few of those awards, especially when they had those garbage OLs. But that’s besides the point.

Big ben, in actual MVP terms is off. How about Wilson, where if he wasn't the QB they really would be a malfunction? Or Saquon?

 

 

[lancerman]

8 hours ago, Hunter2_1 said:

Big ben, in actual MVP terms is off. How about Wilson, where if he wasn't the QB they really would be a malfunction? Or Saquon?

 

 

Saquon’s team won’t make the playoffs 

[Hunter2_1]

3 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Saquon’s team won’t make the playoffs 

True

[SkippyX]

17 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

Let’s be real. The Patriots have the GOAT at HC and won 10 games with Matt Cassel at QB the season Brady went down. Brady isn’t the most valuable for that reason alone.

If the award truly went to the most valuable player than I’d say Big Ben should have won a few of those awards, especially when they had those garbage OLs. But that’s besides the point.

The Matt Cassel argument is a failed football IQ test.

The team that Brady had went 18-1

Cassel with that same team lost 500% more games and won 44.5% less games.

Brady's WAR over those 2 years was 7 per season.

This makes him the greatest player in the history of human sports.

This is true because Cassel was a real replacement level QB. Kizers, Painters, and 39 year old Kerry Collins types are far worse than replacement level.

Brady had 50 TDs and a 117.2 rating. He led the league in EVERYTHING except low interception% (his 1.4 was 3rd behind 0.9 and 1.2)

Cassel had 21 TDs (42% of Brady) and an 89.4 rating.  He was 10th in TDs and rating.

He had a lower TD% than Seneca Wallace, Tyler Thigpen and Shaun Hill.

Brady's TD to INT was 9.5 to 1. Cassel's was 1.91 to 1.

The 2007 Patriots were a helmet catch from perfection.

The 2008 Patriots did not make the playoffs.

You are not clever when you are bringing up Matt Cassel. You are WORSHIPING BRADY when you bring up Cassel.

 

Edited September 2, 2019 by SkippyX

[CP3MVP]

17 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

Let’s be real. The Patriots have the GOAT at HC and won 10 games with Matt Cassel at QB the season Brady went down. Brady isn’t the most valuable for that reason alone.

If the award truly went to the most valuable player than I’d say Big Ben should have won a few of those awards, especially when they had those garbage OLs. But that’s besides the point.

Big Ben hasn’t  had a “garbage line” in like 6 years” and the years he did he had a top 3 defense like every year carrying the gram 

[diamondbull424]

9 hours ago, Hunter2_1 said:

Big ben, in actual MVP terms is off. How about Wilson, where if he wasn't the QB they really would be a malfunction? Or Saquon?

Wilson for this year makes good sense as well. Not against that. Saquan would have to get his team to the playoffs, else what is he really doing “of value” to the team. Meant Big Ben in the past in the previous post.

[diamondbull424]

7 minutes ago, CP3MVP said:

Big Ben hasn’t  had a “garbage line” in like 6 years” and the years he did he had a top 3 defense like every year carrying the gram 

Which is what I said... which is why that post used past tense verbiage. Never mentioned him being the MVP now. Though I wouldn’t have him removed from the debate this season... mainly because there are a lot of strong candidates on this year’s watchlist.

An argument can be made for most any QB in their youth that could have a breakout or a veteran that could refresh public opinion.

Edited September 2, 2019 by diamondbull424

[diamondbull424]

48 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

The Matt Cassel argument is a failed football IQ test.

The team that Brady had went 18-1

Cassel with that same team lost 500% more games and won 44.5% less games.

Brady's WAR over those 2 years was 7 per season.

This makes him the greatest player in the history of human sports.

This is true because Cassel was a real replacement level QB. Kizers, Painters, and 39 year old Kerry Collins types are far worse than replacement level.

Brady had 50 TDs and a 117.2 rating. He led the league in EVERYTHING except low interception% (his 1.4 was 3rd behind 0.9 and 1.2)

Cassel had 21 TDs (42% of Brady) and an 89.4 rating.  He was 10th in TDs and rating.

He had a lower TD% than Seneca Wallace, Tyler Thigpen and Shaun Hill.

Brady's TD to INT was 9.5 to 1. Cassel's was 1.91 to 1.

The 2007 Patriots were a helmet catch from perfection.

The 2008 Patriots did not make the playoffs.

You are not clever when you are bringing up Matt Cassel. You are WORSHIPING BRADY when you bring up Cassel.

 

Same team crap is overrated. I’ve seen my team return with similar talents just a year removed from greatness and see significantly different results. Mainly because the league is ever evolving and players inevitably age.

Also current Brady isn’t the MVP is my argument. They’ve got a great coach and great talent at multiple levels of the team, that unit could make the playoffs with a “quality QB” such as an Andy Dalton or Joe Flacco given BB as the coach. And with playoff Flacco I would argue that they could still get it done in the playoffs. Just saying this season there appear to be QBs that if they go down would mean subpar coaching couldn’t cover up team flaws elsewhere. Watson would probably fit the bill. Wilson last year would have fit the bill (though not due to coaching, rather due to the lack of overall talent elsewhere).